Arkansas Midwife Loses License - Mother Speaks Out Merged

[NeverAFundie]

Thanks for merging the threads, mods.  Venessa and her "no, I'll just have to do more paperwork in AR" response...ugh.  I'm glad that AR revoked it, and sorry for the women of Oklahoma, who still call her for services because OK doesn't regulate "direct midwife entry" AT ALL.

[ClaraOswin]

Where exactly is she delivering babies now? Sorry if that was posted and I missed it.

ETA - Ah. Just saw the post above. Oklahoma has the "pleasure" of her, it seems. I noticed she still posts pictures of babies on Instagram. Does she have a current FB page for her "practice," I wonder.

[nastyhobbitses]

21 minutes ago, ClaraOswin said:

Tiffany and Venessa DID know about her being group B strep positive before the birth. But Tiffany said Venessa never told her she needed to be on antibiotics for it. She told her to do some non-approved treatment or something. (Pickles' facebook page has all the screenshots of the conversation.)

I try to reserve judgment about people's medical and romantic decisions, but if a midwife with little to no actual formal medical training essentially says "yeah, you have strep B, which could potentially kill or permanently disable your baby, but don't take antibiotics or anything", that's a massive red flag.

[ClaraOswin]

I agree. 

I googled and it seems like the super-crunchy set try "home remedies" for group b strep. Wow.

[iknowright]

I'm thinking that since a lay midwife can't write prescriptions, then she would of course suggest home remedies.  I would venture to say a woman seeing a lay midwife for her care would not also be seeing a doctor during her pregnancy, and would rely on the lay midwife for pregnancy related issues.  

[ClaraOswin]

It sounds like Tiffany didn't even know she should have been on antibiotics. She trusted Venessa to keep her informed but that was clearly a bad idea.

I hope more people see Tiffany's story and decide to use REAL midwives or doctors instead.

[iknowright]

1 minute ago, ClaraOswin said:

It sounds like Tiffany didn't even know she should have been on antibiotics. She trusted Venessa to keep her informed but that was clearly a bad idea.

I hope more people see Tiffany's story and decide to use REAL midwives or doctors instead.

All of this.

[choralcrusader8613]

I'm thinking that since a lay midwife can't write prescriptions, then she would of course suggest home remedies.  I would venture to say a woman seeing a lay midwife for her care would not also be seeing a doctor during her pregnancy, and would rely on the lay midwife for pregnancy related issues.  

You would think that a true professional would know when to call in someone else, but...

So sad that this happened.

[Mothership]

My daughter lives in the Kansas City area where there is a fabulous fully qualified NMW practice that serves women in both Missouri and Kansas. They attended all three of her children's births. The midwives have MSNs with lots of extra years of study in midwifery.  They are really wonderful and work with a group of OB/GYNs.  They're smart and make smart decisions to protect the women and babies--including appropriately sending moms to the hospital when complications arise.

I say all this because it really bothers me that someone like Venessa can be lumped in with these highly qualified professionals AND that sadly, some women will not do the necessary homework and realize the difference.

[Snarkylark]

8 minutes ago, Mothership said:

My daughter lives in the Kansas City area where there is a fabulous fully qualified NMW practice that serves women in both Missouri and Kansas. They attended all three of her children's births. The midwives have MSNs with lots of extra years of study in midwifery.  They are really wonderful and work with a group of OB/GYNs.  They're smart and make smart decisions to protect the women and babies--including appropriately sending moms to the hospital when complications arise.

I say all this because it really bothers me that someone like Venessa can be lumped in with these highly qualified professionals AND that sadly, some women will not do the necessary homework and realize the difference.

And that's one of the big problems. Most women do not know the difference between the different types of midwives or that there even IS a difference.  And don't know to ask. If it isn't required to be explained, chances are, it isn't. 

1 hour ago, iknowright said:

Well how would any of that be tested or treated since Vanessa is not a nurse practitioner nor physician?  

IIRC from reading the state of AR's midwife scope of practice, a PCP has to order tests, labs, etc and rx, including the eye drops the infant will need after birth. Venessa would not have been able to administer the GBS atb, a visiting RN would, as we saw happen with the IV bag hanging up in Jill's bed in one of her labor pics.  

[iknowright]

There is such a startling difference between a "CPM" (see doesn't that designation sound impressive?) and a NPW, it isn't even close.  

 

A Nurse Practitioner Midwife has been to nursing school and becomes an RN first - almost always with a Bachelor's Degree, graduate school, worked closely with a physician on clinicals on hundreds if not thousands of births, is authorized to write prescriptions, and would have hospital connections (i.e....if an emergency for the mom or baby, one would have automatic entry into the hospital and not go through the emergency room).  

Lay midwives (and CPM's are this) can be anything.  I looked into this and until recently, they didn't even need a high school diploma.  

[Snarkylark]

9 minutes ago, iknowright said:

There is such a startling difference between a "CPM" (see doesn't that designation sound impressive?) and a NPW, it isn't even close.  

 

A Nurse Practitioner Midwife has been to nursing school and becomes an RN first - almost always with a Bachelor's Degree, graduate school, worked closely with a physician on clinicals on hundreds if not thousands of births, is authorized to write prescriptions, and would have hospital connections (i.e....if an emergency for the mom or baby, one would have automatic entry into the hospital and not go through the emergency room).  

Lay midwives (and CPM's are this) can be anything.  I looked into this and until recently, they didn't even need a high school diploma.  

See, and where I live we call what you described as NPMs "CNMs" (certified nurse midwives) so I'm not surprised that between all the different states and regulations in each that there is confusion. 

[iknowright]

Yep. Agreed.  

[Kjaerringa]

@TiffanyIf I am understanding your post correctly, you are Jozzie's mom. I hope that you are doing well. I am so very sorry for the ordeal that you and your family have endured. I hope you enjoy being part of FJ. One of the things I appreciate most is that not only are our members wickedly clever, but they are genuinely concerned about the well being of the children. Welcome.

[Denim Jumper]

I remember, when I was pregnant with my second baby, asking my midwife (a CNM) about trying crunchy remedies instead of antibiotics. She told me quite firmly that I would have to find another midwife if I decided to go that route. She was my midwife for my third baby, as well; I did the antibiotics again, but I wasn't at the hospital in time to get the full course, and ended up passing GBS to my baby. Thankfully, being a hospital birth, he was immediately started on IV antibiotics and kept in NICU until he was able to clear the bacteria. To be honest, until that happened I didn't really understand just how serious GBS is, because it is brushed off as being so rare (yeah, because of antibiotics), but Wren's Story is a very sad testament to just how serious it is if real medical treatment isn't sought.

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, choralcrusader8613 said:

You would think that a true professional would know when to call in someone else, but...

So sad that this happened.

But calling in those eebil mean heathen doctors is a sign of weakness! No, I am the awesomest midwife ever and having your perfect Godly homebirth like a good Christian woman is more important than you or your baby's well-being! Now quit bugging me about this bacteria you carry that could harm your baby; I'm late for a pro-life march...cuz I care so much about BAYBEEZ. Until they're in the process of being born, in which case I won't give a shit if my stupidity almost kills them.

[ClaraOswin]

15 minutes ago, Denim Jumper said:

I remember, when I was pregnant with my second baby, asking my midwife (a CNM) about trying crunchy remedies instead of antibiotics. She told me quite firmly that I would have to find another midwife if I decided to go that route. She was my midwife for my third baby, as well; I did the antibiotics again, but I wasn't at the hospital in time to get the full course, and ended up passing GBS to my baby. Thankfully, being a hospital birth, he was immediately started on IV antibiotics and kept in NICU until he was able to clear the bacteria. To be honest, until that happened I didn't really understand just how serious GBS is, because it is brushed off as being so rare (yeah, because of antibiotics), but Wren's Story is a very sad testament to just how serious it is if real medical treatment isn't sought.

I hadn't read that story before. How incredibly awful.

[lascuba]

4 hours ago, ClaraOswin said:

I agree. 

I googled and it seems like the super-crunchy set try "home remedies" for group b strep. Wow.

The garlic up the vagina is my favorite. And by favorite, I mean "the one that makes me want to punch people in the face."

Wait a minute...Jill was at this birth, objected to Venessa not transferring the baby to the hospital right away, which means she actually has some awareness, but when it was time for her own birth she decides to essentially ignore her GBS status by going 70 hours post ROM before consenting to a CS? Ok, she got IV antibiotics, but that long with ruptured membranes goes against every standard of care. 

A little bit of knowledge really is dangerous. 

[SassyPants]

Wait, Venessa has the same "certification" as Jill?

As a BSN who worked in the Nicu for 35 years, this shit makes my BP rise.

[Snarkylark]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Wait, Venessa has the same "certification" as Jill?

As a BSN who worked in the Nicu for 35 years, this shit makes my BP rise.

YUP

[Blahblah]

Not sure if she's been mentioned before but in Aus we had a fully accredited, registered nurse turned home birth advocate who was deregistered after multiple baby deaths. Her stance was/is that the mother is the most important person at a birth and if the mother wants a birth that will endanger the baby, then she should be allowed to have it. Google "Lisa Barrett midwife coroner".  Warning - tragic multiple baby deaths.

[ClaraOswin]

Wow. Why would mothers continue to use her as a midwife?! That is just.....shocking. And really sad.

[roddma]

I don't know why a woman would want to set themselves back 100 years.  Sure babies die in hospitals, but home birth has a 4 times greater neonatal death rate. I also think Fundie types 'choose' home birth because they don't have any other choice including birth control. 

http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20140203/study-ties-home-births-to-higher-infant-death-rates

[HarleyQuinn]

The fact that Jill witnessed all of this and "seemed" to disagree (I say seemed, but to be honest, I don't think Jill is even capable of thinking critically enough here to manage an original thought. She probably just nodded along with someone else) makes her own home birth even worse. 

[socalrules]

Even if Jill and the other trainees disagreed, I wouldn't let them off the hook. If you think someone's life is in danger, you pick up the phone and call 911. There is no real downside if you were wrong. The problem is that Jill and the other trainees, along with everyone else there, seemed to only know how to take orders, not how to lead. Jill was only taught to follow authority, not assess a situation on her own and make a rational decision. Blind followers should not be in a position where life and death decisions need to be made.