Arkansas Midwife Loses License - Mother Speaks Out Merged

[VVV]

Here is a chart showing the paths to becoming a midwife or a "midwife:"

http://www.amcbmidwife.org/amcb-certifi ... ification-

Please note that CPMs must apprentice under someone who has attended "at least 50" births. 50 births is NOTHING! It is not possible to see every possible dangerous scenario in 50 births. Doctors doing residency training in OB might see 50 births in their first week or two. And the formal education requirement consists of a high school diploma.

I can't imagine any CNM agreeing to teach a lay midwife if for no other reason than the horrendous liability incurred. Incidentally, a CPM as licensed in the US would not be permitted to practice in any other country. She would be unqualified to do so.

On a purely anecdotal level, a good friend has just finished her residency in family practice, which included OB and ER rotations. According to her, every week they saw at least one trainwreck coming in from a catastrophic home birth with a lay midwife.

For more reading on the risks people are taking with a homebirth attended by a lay midwife, see

skepticalob.com/2014/01/homebirth-midwives-reveal-death-rate-450-higher-than-hospital-birth-announce-that-it-shows-homebirth-is-safe.html

hurtbyhomebirth.blogspot.com/p/homebirth-deaths-and-injuries-on-web.html (triggers)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... erous.html

[Arrowoftruth]

If fundies keep having their babies by lay midwives only I guess we'll see their population decrease :?

[SassyPants]

Let's all be thankful that Jill is no longer going to be involved in midwifery, of any kind. If her next baby is large and she ends up with another csection, her input into her own reproductive care will likely diminish.

[bal maiden]

Let's all be thankful that Jill is no longer going to be involved in midwifery, of any kind. If her next baby is large and she ends up with another csection, her input into her own reproductive care will likely diminish.

No, sorry, I can't be thankful that a woman's "input into her own reproductive care will likely diminish" :? That is certainly not anything for anyone to celebrate, especially in the light of cases like this one https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/woman-d ... 55292.html The paternalism and power relations in modern obstetrics are seriously problematic - that doesn't mean that obstetric medicine and interventions are worthless, of course they are extremely valuable - but the disempowerment of women does not have to be inherent to medicalised childbirth.

I can be happy that Jill will be forced to educate herself on more potential birth scenarios, I can be happy that she will have to think outside the Gothard-approved birthing box. But I cannot be celebrate the idea of her feeling entirely disempowered and shut out from a process that is happening to her body. Even within the realm of C sections there is space for the mother's input.

[FundieFarmer]

I found it interesting that Venesssa wasn't Jill's mid-whatever, but she did throw her baby shower and was featured in the episode for that (unless it's a different Venessa).

[SassyPants]

No, sorry, I can't be thankful that a woman's "input into her own reproductive care will likely diminish" :? That is certainly not anything for anyone to celebrate, especially in the light of cases like this one https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/woman-d ... 55292.html The paternalism and power relations in modern obstetrics are seriously problematic - that doesn't mean that obstetric medicine and interventions are worthless, of course they are extremely valuable - but the disempowerment of women does not have to be inherent to medicalised childbirth.

I can be happy that Jill will be forced to educate herself on more potential birth scenarios, I can be happy that she will have to think outside the Gothard-approved birthing box. But I cannot be celebrate the idea of her feeling entirely disempowered and shut out from a process that is happening to her body. Even within the realm of C sections there is space for the mother's input.

That wasn't the part I was referring to being thankful for-

[SassyPants]

I found it interesting that Venesssa wasn't Jill's mid-whatever, but she did throw her baby shower and was featured in the episode for that (unless it's a different Venessa).

I think because she was under investigation for malpractice. IMO, the state should not allow people who have no higher education in a health related field to be involved in providing HC during acute episodes.

This would akin to letting nurses' aides manage a laboring patient and then deliver patients with no other HCP in the building.

[FundieFarmer]

Agreed that's why; what sparked my interest is that TLC, probably knowing that, went ahead and featured her anyway.

[javafriend]

Isn't Venessa the midwife associated with the chiropractor Jill saw during her labor (after the meconium and before the hospital)? If so, how likely is it that the chiropracter visit was just a cover for a visit with her unlicensed midwife? It wouldn't surprise me.

[FJismyheadship]

Isn't Venessa the midwife associated with the chiropractor Jill saw during her labor (after the meconium and before the hospital)? If so, how likely is it that the chiropracter visit was just a cover for a visit with her unlicensed midwife? It wouldn't surprise me.

At that point Venessa had not lost her license so Venessa was still licensed.

[halcionne]

At that point Venessa had not lost her license so Venessa was still licensed.

She seems to have lost her license some time in March, after many months of investigation. FJ discussed it here: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25780&p=925427p925432

I'm with javafriend on this one; it would't surprise me if the chiro visit included an under the table visit to Venessa.

[SassyPants]

Well, I hope that Derick is wise enough to connect the dots between Jill's trainer and Jill's apparent knowledge deficits.

Could it be a coincidence that Venessa left AR to practice in TX at the same time that she was being investigated for her practices and judgment calls in AR?

[Coco]

Okay, so maybe I'm the only person who thought Venessa Giron had legitimate training. I haven't read old posts on Jill's apprenticeship for a long time. I was unimpressed with the lay midwife concept, but somehow I didn't realize her teacher was a lay midwife herself until very recently. I was under the obviously mistaken impression that lay midwives in Arkansas were studying under CNMs. And I'm horrified to think hobbyists (I love the term, by the way) are teaching more hobbyists how to deliver babies. FFS, it's like second generation SOTDRT, only so much more dangerous.

~goes to read up on Jill's apprenticeship more closely~

No you're not the only one.

I met with Venessa when i was pregnant with our first and trusted that she had her stuff together. (so naive)

But there's a definite belief out there that birth is something inherent and women can pretty much just wing it. Even as far back as the '70's when Ina May Gaskin's caravan was popping out kids in converted school buses and later founded the Farm. In her book, Spiritual Midwifery, Gaskin even has diagrams about how to stitch perennial tears. And she talks about pushing a young mom's uterus back in when it prolapsed. All the while promoting the belief that it's a-ok to just read some holistic books and go for it. :angry-banghead: They're proud of the statistics of woman-coached labor and childbirth but i'm not sure i believe them anymore on face value.

i'm really glad you're taking on this subject, people need to know how dangerous these hobbyists are and how they're risking people's lives.

[Coco]

Here is a chart showing the paths to becoming a midwife or a "midwife:"

http://www.amcbmidwife.org/amcb-certifi ... ification-

Please note that CPMs must apprentice under someone who has attended "at least 50" births. 50 births is NOTHING! It is not possible to see every possible dangerous scenario in 50 births. Doctors doing residency training in OB might see 50 births in their first week or two. And the formal education requirement consists of a high school diploma.

I can't imagine any CNM agreeing to teach a lay midwife if for no other reason than the horrendous liability incurred. Incidentally, a CPM as licensed in the US would not be permitted to practice in any other country. She would be unqualified to do so.

On a purely anecdotal level, a good friend has just finished her residency in family practice, which included OB and ER rotations. According to her, every week they saw at least one trainwreck coming in from a catastrophic home birth with a lay midwife.

For more reading on the risks people are taking with a homebirth attended by a lay midwife, see

skepticalob.com/2014/01/homebirth-midwives-reveal-death-rate-450-higher-than-hospital-birth-announce-that-it-shows-homebirth-is-safe.html

hurtbyhomebirth.blogspot.com/p/homebirth-deaths-and-injuries-on-web.html (triggers)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... gerous.html

Thanks for those links.

It's difficult to believe these lay midwives keep practicing in a risky way, knowing the women they see aren't very healthy.

I really don't remember a lot of fundie moms who weren't struggling with something that should have been monitored. Things like advanced age, or carrying too much weight, or poor diet, there's just so many things they kind of ignore because they've bought into the idea that medical providers are too invasive with newborn testing and shots, or they're afraid to have their kids "in the system". And even Jill, young, healthy, rested, still had major issues. That's just not a good game to be playing.

[sunnyfunnyfarm]

So, if you're interviewing a propective midwife for your own pregnancy, the midwife will provide CNM documentation when asked. Yes, that is easy. But we're I'm (maybe it's only me?) interested in vetting people we only know through the internet. May not be possible, I understand, if there's no CNM database, or similar. I guess that was my question. Unless an FJer with bigger ovaries than mine wants to make some phone calls... :cracking-up:

I know everybody has their own reasons for reading and participating in Free Jinger. One of the reasons I'm here is to shine a light on the ugly, dark side of protestant* religious extremists and examples of oppressive patriarchal lifestyles. Coming from that place, I am a little ashamed that Venessa Giron (and Teresa Fedosky) seem to have been taken at face value by Free Jinger readers for years. But that's just me. Folks who aren't interested in FJ as investigative reporting tool should disregard my posts. :)

*I tend to focus on this and have been reminded many times that all fundies aren't protestant; I still fall into this line of thinking on a regular basis. Sorry.

I don't think anyone answered your question about a CNM database? CNM are licensed by state boards of nursing. So in any state that has license info online (mine does), it is possible to verify the credentials, and the status of the license, discipline action, etc.

[JillyO]

I think it is really misleading that these lay midwives are allowed to call themselves Certified Professional Midwives (CMP). I don't have any kids and I don't even currently live in the US, so I had never done any research on widwifery there before I joined FJ. When you first hear it, I think "Certified Professional Midwife" does sound like they have some kind of proper training and qualification. However, CPM means nothing more than Lay Midwife. Now a "layperson" is "a person who is not qualified in a given profession and/or does not have specific knowledge of a certain subject" (this is from Wikipedia, but obviously there are many other, similar definitions to be found online). Let me repeat that: "a person who is not qualified in a given profession and/or does not have specific knowledge of a certain subject." So, why are people who are not qualified in midwifery and do not possess specific knowledge about midwifery allowed to call themselves "Certified Professional Midwives?" Yes, it is pretty easy to find out their real credentials online these days. But still, I think that is a terrible misappropriation of a title.

[BrownieMomma]

I think it is really misleading that these lay midwives are allowed to call themselves Certified Professional Midwives (CMP). I don't have any kids and I don't even currently live in the US, so I had never done any research on widwifery there before I joined FJ. When you first hear it, I think "Certified Professional Midwife" does sound like they have some kind of proper training and qualification. However, CPM means nothing more than Lay Midwife. Now a "layperson" is "a person who is not qualified in a given profession and/or does not have specific knowledge of a certain subject" (this is from Wikipedia, but obviously there are many other, similar definitions to be found online). Let me repeat that: "a person who is not qualified in a given profession and/or does not have specific knowledge of a certain subject." So, why are people who are not qualified in midwifery and do not possess specific knowledge about midwifery allowed to call themselves "Certified Professional Midwives?" Yes, it is pretty easy to find out their real credentials online these days. But still, I think that is a terrible misappropriation of a title.

I have to strongly agree with you on this, it is dangerously misleading for the CPM to be used when it is truly meaningless.

[Peas n carrots]

It just isn't fundies into the Whole Foods birth experience. A friend of mine's sister and her partner are having their second child, and they are planning an intervention free (unless the mother/child is in distress) birth. I think it's the sister's partner who is pushing for it more. I like to point out even with some of the unnecessary interventions, the modern mother/child's chances of surviving birth have dramatically improved in the past 80 or so years. It's the same with vaccines...are high rates of mother/child death and deadly disease far enough in the past people are forgetting or glossing over these realities?

[lovemygsp]

[Even as far back as the '70's when Ina May Gaskin's caravan was popping out kids in converted school buses and later founded the Farm. In her book, Spiritual Midwifery, Gaskin even has diagrams about how to stitch perennial tears. And she talks about pushing a young mom's uterus back in when it prolapsed. All the while promoting the belief that it's a-ok to just read some holistic books and go for it. :angry-banghead: They're proud of the statistics of woman-coached labor and childbirth but i'm not sure i believe them anymore on face value.

Im glad you mentioned gaskin. I read one of her books when pregnant and she claimed she never had cases of pre-e due to diet at the farm. I didn't think much of it but then I got pre-e after doing everything right. I call total BS on her. I started researching about pee-e and it doesn't have any correlation with diet because it's thought to be related to an autoimmune response. Such a load of bull and when I first was diagnosed it made me feel awful and like what did I do wrong. Ugh.

It just isn't fundies into the Whole Foods birth experience. A friend of mine's sister and her partner are having their second child, and they are planning an intervention free (unless the mother/child is in distress) birth. I think it's the sister's partner who is pushing for it more. I like to point out even with some of the unnecessary interventions, the modern mother/child's chances of surviving birth have dramatically improved in the past 80 or so years. It's the same with vaccines...are high rates of mother/child death and deadly disease far enough in the past people are forgetting or glossing over these realities?

Just because someone wants to try an intervention free birth does not make them snark worthy. Eye roll. For example: An epidural is no fun. It requires an IV, catheter, and an IV cord sticking out of your spine. Not to mention it can have some dangerous side effects. Some people don't care and that's fine. Other people would rather choose pain then those things. Let's not judge moms on their birth choices unless they are actually putting themselves at extreme risk...

ETA: and on birth safety.. The U.S. Doesn't fare so well in infant/mother mortality rates even with all those interventions. There are different theories on why but I won't get into them as I don't believe any of them are concrete yet.

[Coco]

It just isn't fundies into the Whole Foods birth experience. A friend of mine's sister and her partner are having their second child, and they are planning an intervention free (unless the mother/child is in distress) birth. I think it's the sister's partner who is pushing for it more. I like to point out even with some of the unnecessary interventions, the modern mother/child's chances of surviving birth have dramatically improved in the past 80 or so years. It's the same with vaccines...are high rates of mother/child death and deadly disease far enough in the past people are forgetting or glossing over these realities?

the sad thing is that it's hidden. I never even knew about the Hurt By Homebirth group until seeing it on FJ.

People don't upload videos of their tragic birth to youtube. It's all the beautiful ones. I think moms want that beautiful experience, and they try to ignore or downplay the risks.

For instance What to Expect When You're Expecting is a tad bit alarmist :lol: well that's a good thing imo, to know the things that can go wrong even if it leads to some stress about stuff that never happens.

But on the web pregnant women can edit things down to just what they want to hear, even without being intentional about ignoring bad stuff. They just search out the positive. It's dangerous.

[Coco]

Im glad you mentioned gaskin. I read one of her books when pregnant and she claimed she never had cases of pre-e due to diet at the farm. I didn't think much of it but then I got pre-e after doing everything right. I call total BS on her. I started researching about pee-e and it doesn't have any correlation with diet because it's thought to be related to an autoimmune response. Such a load of bull and when I first was diagnosed it made me feel awful and like what did I do wrong. Ugh.

So sorry that happened to you. Her book really is full of fantasy and opinion. I didn't even realize the pre-e part was wrong. Good grief.

[legalbeagle]

I don't think anyone answered your question about a CNM database? CNM are licensed by state boards of nursing. So in any state that has license info online (mine does), it is possible to verify the credentials, and the status of the license, discipline action, etc.

This link allows you to search practices in a particular area where CNMs are on staff (NOT CPMs): http://www.midwife.org/find-a-midwife

[halcionne]

Well, I hope that Derick is wise enough to connect the dots between Jill's trainer and Jill's apparent knowledge deficits.

Could it be a coincidence that Venessa left AR to practice in TX at the same time that she was being investigated for her practices and judgment calls in AR?

I'm still not convinced she's practicing in Texas; she's from Texas originally, and her TX web presence (that I saw) was either not dated or several years old. She's definitely practicing somewhere, though: she caught two babies in April (I would love to be able to identify her head-covering assistant (apprentice?)) and one on March 10.

[CallmeChaCha]

I'm still not convinced she's practicing in Texas; she's from Texas originally, and her TX web presence (that I saw) was either not dated or several years old. She's definitely practicing somewhere, though: she caught two babies in April (I would love to be able to identify her head-covering assistant (apprentice?)) and one on March 10.

Rosemary? Possibly. Check the comments on pictures of her on The Facebook. I saw a few people mention that name.

[halcionne]

No you're not the only one.

I met with Venessa when i was pregnant with our first and trusted that she had her stuff together. (so naive)

But there's a definite belief out there that birth is something inherent and women can pretty much just wing it. Even as far back as the '70's when Ina May Gaskin's caravan was popping out kids in converted school buses and later founded the Farm. In her book, Spiritual Midwifery, Gaskin even has diagrams about how to stitch perennial tears. And she talks about pushing a young mom's uterus back in when it prolapsed. All the while promoting the belief that it's a-ok to just read some holistic books and go for it. :angry-banghead: They're proud of the statistics of woman-coached labor and childbirth but i'm not sure i believe them anymore on face value.

i'm really glad you're taking on this subject, people need to know how dangerous these hobbyists are and how they're risking people's lives.

I'm glad it wasn't just me. I skimmed through some old posts I found and, with hindsight being 20/20, I can see there were some FJers who weren't picking up what TLC and the Duggars were putting down with regard to Jill's training. I suppose I'm ashamed at myself for having been less skeptical than I am now. I actually feel so uncomfortable and disillusioned with all of this that I don't know how to respond to posts in this thread. :( I am reading them all, though. The notion that Venessa Giron and Teresa Fedosky may have had increased business because they appeared on the show turns my stomach.

Speaking of Teresa: she was registered at one point as a lay midwife apprentice, with Venessa as her instructor. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=11334&hilit=jill+venessa#p320898 I'm trying to find an archived or cached version of the document quoted, but I suck at google cache.