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halcionne

Arkansas Midwife Loses License - Mother Speaks Out Merged

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halcionne

This is tangentially Duggar related, but I think it's a good topic for Quiver Full of Snark because I'm hoping FJers will want to talk about midwife charlatans and the like, not just the Duggar connection.

 

Venessa Giron, a lay midwife from Tontitown, AR, delivered a baby who developed group b strep and nearly died in February, 2014. The baby is okay now. Venessa's license was revoked with no fanfare sometime last week. She happened to be supervising Jill and Jana Duggar's lay midwife apprenticeships, so their permits were revoked as well.

 

The GBS+ case was discussed a little bit during Jill's never-ending pregnancy here: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=25434&hilit=supervisor&start=540 but a lot of people missed it and I'm not sure how deep the discussion went. I read every word of those threads and it went right over my head.

 

I have a tendency to write a wall of text when I make a new topic, and people don't care to add, maybe. So I'm trying to keep this brief. I have links to Venessa's facebook and screenshots of relevant fb posts, links to the state registry where Venessa's name was removed last week. I have the name of the baby and her family, but I'm not sure I will share it here; there hasn't been any media report about this and I don't want to "out" anyone who hasn't done anything wrong, except possibly hire a reckless midwife.

 

A Mommy's Butterfly Midwifery: https://www.facebook.com/pages/A-Mommys ... 97?fref=ts

It looks like she's catching babies somewhere, but presumably not in Arkansas. She is originally from Texas and offers services in Oklahoma as well.

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SassyPants

So this must be the reason that Venessa was not Jill's MW-

I had wondered why Jill was using someone else for her prenatal care. Now I know why.

Also, if her license was revoked in Feb of 2014, this is likely another reason why Jill and Jana were no longer in training in early 2014...too bad the Duggars can never be honest about anything.

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halcionne

Her license was revoked last week. The incident was in Feb 2014.

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ClaraOswin

So are Jill and Jana even doing anymore midwife or doula stuff at all now?

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Coconut Flan

Jill said she was going to take the licensing exam this year, but elsewhere said she wasn't going to practice. Since she's gone this far, it's probably a good thing to take the exam.

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halcionne

But her permit was revoked, so I wonder if she can still take the exam?

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SassyPants
But her permit was revoked, so I wonder if she can still take the exam?

I wonder if this is standard: the trainer's license is revoked, so the apprentices' are just SOL and no longer eligible for certification?

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Coconut Flan

That's a question I had as well. Jill had two other midwives listed as her mentors so losing one shouldn't have necessarily meant losing her entire chance should it? I'd hate to think Jill was involved in whatever resulted in Vanessa's license being pulled.

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Buzzard

I know I noted during the recaps that it was odd that she wasnt using Vanessa as her midwife. I think february may have been the last straw. Something had to have happened earlier.

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FakePigtails

I'm curious about what happened with the strep case. [half-repeating what I said in another thread] She claimed the mother had taken antibiotics but we have no idea of that meant actual recommended IV antibiotics, real antibiotics that aren't appropriate to that situation, or some BS alternative "remedy" like essential oils that she called antibiotics out of truly believing they're as effective as pharmaceuticals.

If she had had the woman take the typical antibiotics for that situation, I don't see why the state would pull her license for the child getting sick. I wonder if, assuming she used the right antibiotics, if she had administered them without the proper licensing.

I'm also curious going forward as to what Jill will do for the next birth, since home births after a cesarean aren't allowed in AR. Hopefully there are in-hospital CNMs she can use to keep the kind of provider relationship she likes without compromising safety.

I didn't initially consider Vanessa not being the midwife as a red flag because I could have understood them wanting to keep things separate, in the same vein of doctors not being doctors for family. But her losing the license is telling.

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SassyPants

There has been talk of Venessa practicing in TX, and there was also a quote from Derick, IIRC, that when the Dillards traveled to TX at the end of Jill's pregnancy, that they had MW "coverage" in case Jill went into labor. I wonder if Venessa was that "coverage"?

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ClaraOswin

I hope some sleuth here is able to find some more info on why her license was pulled. It seems like there has to be more going on besides that strep B thing. (Though I still don't really know what that case was all about. She attended a home birth with someone who had strep B and didn't use antibiotics? Did they know she has strep b before birth? What happened??)

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Buzzard

Are there any news articles or blogs about the strep case? I also wonder if there were prior complaints.

Jill is there, very pregnant in a March 10 post

facebook.com/pages/A-Mommys-Butterfly-Midwifery/155580851151697

eta - I just cant believe that a single incidence would have this effect when Brandi Wood (of the "carri is having twins) rabbithole/tragedy is still happily practicing and that baby died.

home4birth.com

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FakePigtails
I hope some sleuth here is able to find some more info on why her license was pulled. It seems like there has to be more going on besides that strep B thing. (Though I still don't really know what that case was all about. She attended a home birth with someone who had strep B and didn't use antibiotics? Did they know she has strep b before birth? What happened??)

According to a post on the old thread linked in the OP (bolding mine):

I feel a bit like a stalker but I read through her page and the midwife page and on her personal page when she mentioned the meeting with the health board a friend ask if she would lose her license and she said no but she would probably have to do more paperwork.

However, if everything on both pages is true (and none of it seems to be written defensively more stating facts or in the initial posts concern about the baby) I'm not sure exactly what caused her to be held as negligent. According to the posts the mom was following advice on antibiotics due to Group B strep. So she must have been overseen by a doctor (to prescribe the antibiotics.) So unless the doctor told her not to do a homebirth and the midwife did it anyway, the only thing I can think of is that the baby wasn't transferred to the hospital until an hour and a half after birth. But they also said that the admitting pediatrician thought her lungs were premature and didn't catch the infection right away. So unless they thought that stabilizing whatever caused them to think lung prematurity would have led to a better outcome when the infection progressed or unless the midwife failed to disclose the GPS, it's not really clear what she should have done differently. (Although I'm pretty sure it was clear if one actually sat in on the hearing with the health board. I'm saying it's not especially clear from stalking public facebook pages.)

But we don't know whose advice that was and the quality of it. We've all seen how essential oils and other alternative things get held up as equivalent to pharmaceutical medications. I've also heard of women doing home births using topical medications for GBS at birth, but I have no idea what the evidence is for that is like.

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halcionne
I'm curious about what happened with the strep case. [half-repeating what I said in another thread] She claimed the mother had taken antibiotics but we have no idea of that meant actual recommended IV antibiotics, real antibiotics that aren't appropriate to that situation, or some BS alternative "remedy" like essential oils that she called antibiotics out of truly believing they're as effective as pharmaceuticals.

If she had had the woman take the typical antibiotics for that situation, I don't see why the state would pull her license for the child getting sick. I wonder if, assuming she used the right antibiotics, if she had administered them without the proper licensing.

I'm also curious going forward as to what Jill will do for the next birth, since home births after a cesarean aren't allowed in AR. Hopefully there are in-hospital CNMs she can use to keep the kind of provider relationship she likes without compromising safety.

I didn't initially consider Vanessa not being the midwife as a red flag because I could have understood them wanting to keep things separate, in the same vein of doctors not being doctors for family. But her losing the license is telling.

The state requires CDC-approved antibiotics; I wonder if she violated that rule.

Here is a link to the rules and regs, along with current lay midwife and lay midwife apprentice permits.

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/program ... ifery.aspx

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Arrowoftruth

I just came in here to say my mom thinks LM are as knowledgable as CNMs when I told her about Venessa :cray-cray: She doesn't think Venessa is at fault but neither are the mothers. Someone save me lol

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halcionne

I have developed quite a hate-on for this lady that may or may not be appropriate for the situation, so keep that in mind, but she was practicing out of a chiro's office and used that soap opera looking and acting Dr Hill from Siloam Springs as her attending (probably not the right terminology), which sets off more alarms for me. I will dig up the links I found on them if anyone is interested.

ETA phrase for clarity

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Buzzard

Is the penalty for that a full loss of license - as well as the license of all those affiliated with you? You'd think she'd be probationary, require education and supervision, and a warning before they take such a drastic step. Of course, unless this isnt the fist instance.

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FakePigtails

The state requires CDC-approved antibiotics; I wonder if she violated that rule.

Here is a link to the rules and regs, along with current lay midwife and lay midwife apprentice permits.

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/program ... ifery.aspx

I found the CDC recs. All the approved methods appear to involve IV administration: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtm ... rr5910a1_w

Major ISB riding here: Maybe it was a case where the mother refused an IV (which seems to be big source of hate among the natural birth crowd) so they tried an alternative (whether a real antibiotic in a non-IV form or an alternative remedy) instead of transferring care due to the mother not following the requirement?

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ClaraOswin

So her license is revoked in one state due to negligence. But she's free to keep doing this in another state?? Yikes.

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FakePigtails
So her license is revoked in one state due to negligence. But she's free to keep doing this in another state?? Yikes.

And VBACs at that :pink-shock:

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PennySycamore
Is the penalty for that a full loss of license - as well as the license of all those affiliated with you? You'd think she'd be probationary, require education and supervision, and a warning before they take such a drastic step. Of course, unless this isnt the fist instance.

There was a situation here about 30 some years ago where some lay midwives used pitocin at a home birth. Not only did they get in trouble, but so did their attending physician. The midwives must have lost their licenses and they dropped out of sight, but the doctor lost his privileges to attend births for about 8 years. An LLL Leader who babysat for one of the midwives turned her in, btw.

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eri

amamasstory.com/2012/05/midwifery-series-day-5.html

Ok, so this is her? I totally remember her from the show.

Wow, I really want to know what happened.

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ILoveJellybeans

I hope it doesn't mean that all Jill's work was for nothing.....although then again, it probably kinda was, as she will be pregnant before Israel is old enough for her to go back to work, and I bet she doesn't.

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