Florist who wouldn't sell flowers to gay couple loses big!

[IronicallyMaeve]

Hey, Jim and I (Sam) are getting married this weekend and we wondered if you'd help us pick out some flowers to celebrate?! Personally, I'd probably still sell them flowers anyway figuring it'd be less trouble.

Or if you are a known activist coming to my shop on purpose knowing that I'm known around town for supporting the old laws that made sodomy illegal... mainly that. If you already know I don't support it, why give me money?

so you think that a sexual act between to consenting adults should be illegal? Isn't that infringing on their right to happiness? And opposite-sex couples can commit "sodomy" too...I think most do over the course of their relationship.

[CloakNDagger]

No it has nothing to do with that. It is picking and choosing to follow the parts of the Bible that you want to as they justify your thoughts and actions. Those one doesn't want to, are simply ignored. The whole ceremonial vs moral law thing is just excuse to try and justify that.

No, seriously. Remember the passage where God told Peter it was OK to eat those animals? Also in Acts the Jerusalem council did not bind the Gentile church to the old law that was "done away" but merely to abstain from blood and from sexual impurity.

[twin2]

Most of those I know that are reformed believe that the ceremonial laws (not eating cloven animals that don't chew, mixing fabrics, etc...) were specifically for the Jews, where other things, like the Ten Commandments, things moral like sodomy, incest, rape laws were intended for everyone. The mention of sodomy in Romans 1 leads me to believe it indeed wasn't just for the Jews.

Again, all made up. Just admit it, people like yourself just want to choose to follow only the old sacred laws they want to as it fits their own world views, when the old sacred laws contradict what they want to do, they choose to ignore them.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Hey, Jim and I (Sam) are getting married this weekend and we wondered if you'd help us pick out some flowers to celebrate?! Personally, I'd probably still sell them flowers anyway figuring it'd be less trouble.

Or if you are a known activist coming to my shop on purpose knowing that I'm known around town for supporting the old laws that made sodomy illegal... mainly that. If you already know I don't support it, why give me money?

Seriously? That is rubbing it in your face? That's just normal conversation you would have in a flower shop. If you are a florist, you are probably going to get some kind of idea of what kind of celebration it is. In fact, they would probably ask what it was for-is it a gift for a partner, is it for someone who isn't well, is it a mothers day gift, is it for a wedding? I would find it hard to believe that two people could come in to a shop looking for wedding stuff and never at one point mentioning it is their wedding.

They are also not inviting the employee to their wedding, they are asking for recommendations on a product that will help them celebrate their wedding. Theirs. Nomatther what kind of wedding it is. People don't give a shit that the florist (or any other employee offering wedding related stuff) thinks that it is weird that Bob is in his sixties and that Lisa is in her twenties, or thinks their colour scheme is tacky. Or that the woman in the wedding dress shop thinks that the bride's dress is just awful with the alterations she is asking for to make it modest, or that she is wondering if their wedding is a shotgun wedding because she looks at least seven months pregnant. Or the person helping the happy couple with their registry is judging them for being money grabbing for choosing $30000 worth of stuff.

Doing your job does not equal endorsing someone's wedding. They are just random customers who you see only a few times and never see again. You don't know whether that really nice couple who came in actually divorced three months later because she slept with the best man on their wedding night, or that the guy who seems so kind and loving to his girlfriend is actually abusing her. And why should you. You don't know these people, they are customers, just like you don't know or care the goings on of the random people doing their groceries. You might have your theories for the more interesting purchases, like if someone came in and bought a bottle of wine, a pack of condoms and a cucumber....but it is none of your business what people do with these things once they have paid for them.

The only time you, as a person providing a wedding service, should be concerned about the purchases the customers make is if you remember that the bodies only started appearing after the beautiful young couple and their 11 year old chaperone came in and put duct tape and a whole pile of weapons on their registry.

Why would Samuel saying that it is for his and Jim's wedding be inappropriate, but Samantha saying it is for her and Jim's wedding be okay and just a normal part of conversation.

[CloakNDagger]

snip

so you think that a sexual act between to (sic) consenting adults should be illegal? Isn't that infringing on their right to happiness? And opposite-sex couples can commit "sodomy" too...I think most do over the course of their relationship.

I still believe sodomy in the same category of sin as murder and adultery. I already said that I don't particularly believe real "sodomy" as intended by Scripture is anything but a same-sex couple engaging in the act.

[twin2]

No, seriously. Remember the passage where God told Peter it was OK to eat those animals? Also in Acts the Jerusalem council did not bind the Gentile church to the old law that was "done away" but merely to abstain from blood and from sexual impurity.

He was trying to convert people to a new religion. That was going to be hard if he told them they had to give up their pork, kill doves and cut part of their penis off. So he came up with an out.

Actually study the history of the bible dipshit.

[CloakNDagger]

Again, all made up. Just admit it, people like yourself just want to choose to follow only the old sacred laws they want to as it fits their own world views, when the old sacred laws contradict what they want to do, they choose to ignore them.

You know, it'd be a whole lot easier to get along with y'all if I did just throw them all out. OTOH, I still believe that God created this world and set up rules and orders for the universe, and those laws aren't just good ideas. I also don't think they're all just "made up." That's a pretty trivial response. So murder laws are just made up, too? I mean, yeah, I really do think that the mixing fabrics was a specific law given to the physical descendants of Jacob, and it doesn't apply to me, but I do believe murder, adultery, theft, and other things are still morally wrong.

[CloakNDagger]

He was trying to convert people to a new religion. That was going to be hard if he told them they had to give up their pork, kill doves and cut part of their penis off. So he came up with an out.

Actually study the history of the bible dipshit.

And what makes you think I haven't studied it?

[twin2]

You know, it'd be a whole lot easier to get along with y'all if I did just throw them all out. OTOH, I still believe that God created this world and set up rules and orders for the universe, and those laws aren't just good ideas. I also don't think they're all just "made up." That's a pretty trivial response. So murder laws are just made up, too? I mean, yeah, I really do think that the mixing fabrics was a specific law given to the physical descendants of Jacob, and it doesn't apply to me, but I do believe murder, adultery, theft, and other things are still morally wrong.

And you lack reading comprehension. I did not say the laws in the bible were made up. The whole categorizing them into "ceremonial" vs "moral" laws is made up by those who can't and don't want to answer why they choose thump sodomy being a sin, but not eating shrimp.

[CloakNDagger]

Seriously? That is rubbing it in your face? That's just normal conversation you would have in a flower shop. If you are a florist, you are probably going to get some kind of idea of what kind of celebration it is. In fact, they would probably ask what it was for-is it a gift for a partner, is it for someone who isn't well, is it a mothers day gift, is it for a wedding? I would find it hard to believe that two people could come in to a shop looking for wedding stuff and never at one point mentioning it is their wedding.

They are also not inviting the employee to their wedding, they are asking for recommendations on a product that will help them celebrate their wedding. Theirs. Nomatther what kind of wedding it is. People don't give a shit that the florist (or any other employee offering wedding related stuff) thinks that it is weird that Bob is in his sixties and that Lisa is in her twenties, or thinks their colour scheme is tacky. Or that the woman in the wedding dress shop thinks that the bride's dress is just awful with the alterations she is asking for to make it modest, or that she is wondering if their wedding is a shotgun wedding because she looks at least seven months pregnant. Or the person helping the happy couple with their registry is judging them for being money grabbing for choosing $30000 worth of stuff.

Doing your job does not equal endorsing someone's wedding. They are just random customers who you see only a few times and never see again. You don't know whether that really nice couple who came in actually divorced three months later because she slept with the best man on their wedding night, or that the guy who seems so kind and loving to his girlfriend is actually abusing her. And why should you. You don't know these people, they are customers, just like you don't know or care the goings on of the random people doing their groceries. You might have your theories for the more interesting purchases, like if someone came in and bought a bottle of wine, a pack of condoms and a cucumber....but it is none of your business what people do with these things once they have paid for them.

The only time you, as a person providing a wedding service, should be concerned about the purchases the customers make is if you remember that the bodies only started appearing after the beautiful young couple and their 11 year old chaperone came in and put duct tape and a whole pile of weapons on their registry.

Why would Samuel saying that it is for his and Jim's wedding be inappropriate, but Samantha saying it is for her and Jim's wedding be okay and just a normal part of conversation.

So, you didn't read my response to the first question? - clue - I just highlighted it. I GET that.

[KittenMitten]

Ok. I'm an American, but not Christian or Jewish or Islamic. Should your biblical laws apply to me?

[CloakNDagger]

Ok. I'm an American, but not Christian or Jewish or Islamic. Should your biblical laws apply to me?

Maybe time for a separate thread?

[KittenMitten]

Maybe time for a separate thread?

I would leave that up to mods. But I'm American. I pay taxes, vote and support my country. Why should I follow YOUR bible?

[ILoveJellybeans]

I still believe sodomy in the same category of sin as murder and adultery. I already said that I don't particularly believe real "sodomy" as intended by Scripture is anything but a same-sex couple engaging in the act.

How is sodomy anything like murder or adultery?

Murder is when you take the life of another person. That person is dead, they will never ever be seen again, and depending on how you killed them, they probably suffered horribly through what you did to cause their death. You ended a life that had potential to do so much more, all of the things they never got to experience in life, all their hopes and dreams that they will never accomplish because they are dead. They could have lived to be a hundred, but nope, they died before their time because someone murdered them. They were someone's child, sibling, parent, cousin, lover, friend, colleague, grandchild...and all of these people will miss them.

Adultery is when you break the trust of the person who loves you the most. When you entered into that relationship or marriage, you set the terms for who you are allowed to have sex with, and promised this person that you are the only one (or more than one, you can still commit adultery in a poly relationship if you sleep with someone outside of your relationship) who you will be with. They loved you so much, and you broke their heart by being caught sleeping with someone else. You proved yourself as untrustworthy, and your relationship will never be the same, because it is hard to trust someone after they betrayed you. The children you may have had together will be upset by hearing their parents arguing all the time, or if you break up, their whole life will change. Your partner will wonder what she did wrong-what did the other woman have that I didn't? Was I not good enough to make him stay? Why did he do this to me? You might even have given them a STD from having unprotected sex with strangers. If the person who you were cheating with was also in a relationship, their family is also going through the same thing, there is another devastated person somewhere, their partner, you may not know them but you had a part in ruining their life.

Sodomy? Who is that hurting? As long as everyone involved are consenting adults, who cares what people do in the bedroom. You would be surprised what people do in the bedroom that you had never thought of before, theres a fetish for everything, and these people just look like ordinary, normal people (because they are). Your kid's teacher might be a dominatrix in her spare time. Your grandparents might love anal. The kindly middle aged couple down the street might get off to pooping in eachothers faces. How does it affect your life that the nice neighbour who you waved hello to this morning is right now handcuffed to a bed wearing a ball gag while his leather clad girlfriend is dropping hot wax on his junk. Its not like people are going round having wild kinky gay sex in your garden, or rubbing their dick on every surface of your house. People like all sorts, but they keep their sex life private. Sure, you might want to run for the brainbleach when you accidentally hear your parents talking about how they have a sex life, or find out that your friend actually really likes being peed on, but does this actually harm you? No. It harms nobody, as everyone involved is consenting adults who want to be there and are enjoying it. You should have no say in other people's sex lives unless you are planning on having sex with them. You don't have to join in. You don't like having sex with men. Fine. Don't have sex with men then.

[samurai_sarah]

No. I reject that. There were Christians who did see a difference in treatment of race and I hope/think I would have been one of them.

Then why was Rosa Parks' seating arrangements not something your kind of Christians fought for?

[polecat]

You know, it'd be a whole lot easier to get along with y'all if I did just throw them all out. OTOH, I still believe that God created this world and set up rules and orders for the universe, and those laws aren't just good ideas. I also don't think they're all just "made up." That's a pretty trivial response. So murder laws are just made up, too? I mean, yeah, I really do think that the mixing fabrics was a specific law given to the physical descendants of Jacob, and it doesn't apply to me, but I do believe murder, adultery, theft, and other things are still morally wrong.

Well, now I see why this particular thread is so long.

Murder, theft and adultery HURT people. Therefore they're wrong. Just exactly who is being hurt by a loving, consensual relationship between two adults? Or heck, a lusting, consensual relationship between adults?

No one.

(And fwiw, the Bible has WAY more to say about heterosexual sins like adultery and fornication than it has to say about being gay, the verses about which can be counted on, what, a single hand?)

[ILoveJellybeans]

So, you didn't read my response to the first question? - clue - I just highlighted it. I GET that.

But you said earlier in the thread:

Nope. That's not shoving it in my face. Neither is telling me that you are one, neither is sitting next to me as a co-worker. Insisting that I celebrate it, that's where I'm bothered.

You say you don't mind gay people as long as they aren't insisting that you celebrate their wedding.....but what exactly is the appropriate way for a gay couple who are getting married to go shopping for wedding related items without shoving their homosexuality into other people's faces.

You said that the perfectly normal introduction for hypothetical couple Sam and Jim was forcing you to celebrate their wedding,...but how is that inappropriate. Good on you for actually being willing to serve them, I guess :roll: but how is that forcing it on people. Do you expect them to lie and say they are marrying women, cause lying is a sin. It is one of the ten commandments, and being gay isn't, so obviously not lying is a bigger priority.

[ShesCrafty]

No. I reject that. There were Christians who did see a difference in treatment of race and I hope/think I would have been one of them.

There were many Christians who fought against racial discrimination, just like there are Christians today that fight for gay rights. Your arguments in this thread show you would have been one of the Christians that made Rosa Parks sit in the back of the bus. They are the EXACT SAME ONES used to justify racial discrimination. You were just born 50 years too late.

[CloakNDagger]

There were many Christians who fought against racial discrimination, just like there are Christians today that fight for gay rights. Your arguments in this thread show you would have been one of the Christians that made Rosa Parks sit in the back of the bus. They are the EXACT SAME ONES used to justify racial discrimination. You were just born 50 years too late.

You're wrong, but whatever, think what you like.

[samurai_sarah]

You're wrong, but whatever, think what you like.

How is this wrong?

[nokidsmom]

Who said anything about known activists?

Re: the bolded, now that was quite a twist. Known activist? :wtf: This is nothing to do with activism. Good grief.

Oh well, I give up. I did just come back from buying a new vacuum cleaner. Must I break it in now? :chores-vacuum:

[CloakNDagger]

You say you don't mind gay people as long as they aren't insisting that you celebrate their wedding.....but what exactly is the appropriate way for a gay couple who are getting married to go shopping for wedding related items without shoving their homosexuality into other people's faces.

You said that the perfectly normal introduction for hypothetical couple Sam and Jim was forcing you to celebrate their wedding,...but how is that inappropriate. Good on you for actually being willing to serve them, I guess :roll: but how is that forcing it on people. Do you expect them to lie and say they are marrying women, cause lying is a sin. It is one of the ten commandments, and being gay isn't, so obviously not lying is a bigger priority.

I guess it depends on how it's done, and most of the time it wouldn't be a problem.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I guess it depends on how it's done, and most of the time it wouldn't be a problem.

So why are you on this thread then arguing that being forced to provide a wedding service to a gay couple is like being raped.?

[formergothardite]

There were Christians who did see a difference in treatment of race and I hope/think I would have been one of them.

You probably wouldn't have simply because you are now on the side of people who want to use religion for discrimination. Still leaves the question of why are you the special snowflake that gets to use religion to discriminate? You trump other religious people?

Luckily there are plenty of Christians who are fighting for gay equality. They will be remembered as the good guys, you will be in the same category as the people who defended segregation.

and that sodomy, unlike being black, Chinese, etc... is still an act of sin, not a born thing

So lesbians are cool with you as long as they don't have anal sex? And I really want to know, if something doesn't hurt anyone, why is it a sin? Think about that. And again, why do you get to use your religious beliefs to discriminate against a group while others cannot?

I don't think sodomy and being black are anywhere near the same thing.

You don't, but other people do not feel that way. Why do you get to use your religion to discriminate while they cannot?

say IF, you understand that I still think that the act itself of sodomy is a sin against God,

What about people whose religion makes them feel this exact same way about serving mixed raced couples or having white and black people mix? This isn't about your opinion on the subject it is about why you get to use your religion to justify discrimination while saying others are wrong for doing the exact same thing.

things moral like sodomy, incest, rape laws were intended for everyone

I want you to please explain to me why two consenting adults who are in a life-long, committed relationship are like incest and rape.

The mention of sodomy in Romans 1 leads me to believe it indeed wasn't just for the Jews.

Context and original language is important when reading these verses. Especially if you are going to use them to justify discrimination.

Or if you are a known activist coming to my shop on purpose knowing that I'm known around town for supporting the old laws that made sodomy illegal... mainly that. If you already know I don't support it, why give me money?

So rather like the black activist I posted about earlier. They knew they were going places that did not want them and where the owners would have to violate their beliefs to serve them, but they went anyway. Do you think these guys were wrong to force people to violate their beliefs so that they could sit at the white only tables? If not, why do you get to use your religion to justify discrimination while the white people in the 50's and 60's couldn't? They felt as deeply about their beliefs as you do.

I still believe sodomy in the same category of sin as murder and adultery

Think deep here. It is going to be hard, but worth it. Explain in detail how two consenting adults who are married and love each other having sex is just like murdering someone. How it is even in the same category? You are not allowed to fall back on "God said it" you have to think for yourself and tell us how it hurts people as much as adultery and murder.

I still believe that God created this world and set up rules and orders for the universe, and those laws aren't just good ideas.

There are people who believed and still believe that God created the world and set up rules for the universe and they deeply feel like segregation is one of those rules. Your opinion on the subject is not need or relevant, your explanation of why you get to use religion to discriminate and they can't is.

[KittenMitten]

I'm sorry Mr CnD. I still do not understand why I, an American, that pays taxes without complaint and always votes and supports my government, has to follow YOUR bible, which I do not believe in. I really want to understand. Am I not an American?