Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

[westchamps]

I am not a christian. I am a big old heathen lesbian. Dammit :-)

Good, then I guess you get a hall pass.

[westchamps]

So it is not okay to say shit and fuck, but it's fine to call people abominations, sluts, and whores. Got it.

If you will be so kind as to point out where I used any of those words in this discussion, I would much appreciate it. I won't be holding my breath to hear back from you on that one.

[SamuraiKatz]

Good, then I guess you get a hall pass.

Does your wife know you are consorting with lesbians on the internet?

[Arete]

Nice try but pitiful westchamps. I'm not interested in whether you as an individual family get your kids tested. Overall, fundamentalist homeschoolers err on the side of not being tested. I know there hasn't been a fundamentalist astronaut or physicist of any note because they would not have been able to hide their proselytizing if there was. You claim all homeschoolers as your own when it suites you, but you know I am not talking about ALL homeschoolers. I am talking about a very specific subset, the ones who teach no evolution, no modern literature, no calculus, no hard science, etc. Evangelicals can only produce 3rd rate stuff for their own demographic. You have no filmmakers, authors, illustrators, musicians, philosophers,, or scientists that have any traction, and by extension, any influence, on the prevailing culture. Those who have no influence make no changes. As someone on another thread articulated far better than I could, your output stays within the evangelical ghetto.

I'm quite sure there are happy marriages that started with courtship and first kisses at the altar. Yes, you are defying the odds. Statistics don't lie. Or you can tell me why evangelicals divorce at a greater rate than atheists. It isn't pulpit lectures or lack thereof, because atheists don't get those lectures either. I am also quite sure that not every kid who is spanked is going to be violent, do drugs, or drop out of school. But once again, the statistics tell us that there is a correlation in both cases. Evangelicals are more likely to get divorced than atheists. Children who are spanked are more likely to have behavior problems than children who are not spanked.

Funny thing about different denominations of Christianity. Not all of us take the Bible word for word, and without context. So when we read something like "He that spareth the rod hateth his son", we take note that this sentence came from the very best child disciplining techniques that the Bronze Age had to offer. We are no longer in the Bronze Age, and we understand just a tad more than a Bronze Aged poet did about childhood development. So while this was the best that author knew, now we know better. When you know better, you are obligated to do better. Are you feeling informed now?

Your sister went to college and yet you buy from a movement and thought well of a man who teach that women should NOT go to college? Niiiiice.

[ladyamylynn]

Does your wife know you are consorting with lesbians on the internet?

He told her he's out mending the fence.

[SamuraiKatz]

He told her he's out mending the fence.

Lol. Good one.

[Coconut Flan]

For Bible believing Christians, the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, no matter what apostle or prophet actually put pen to paper and wrote down the words. Therefore, the Bible is straight from the mouth of God.

Christianity - pushing 2000 years old

Your belief system - maybe 300 years old

Evangelicals are about 13% of the Christian population of the world. Full on fundamentalists would be less than that. Please be aware that your brand of "Christianity" is not representative or definitive of even the majority of Christianity in the world.

[doggie]

Christianity - pushing 2000 years old

Your belief system - maybe 300 years old

Evangelicals are about 13% of the Christian population of the world. Full on fundamentalists would be less than that. Please be aware that your brand of "Christianity" is not representative or definitive of even the majority of Christianity in the world.

well thats cause his version is so much more cooler.

God writes a book in all little bits and pieces put together by a bunch of men then later organized by catholic priests translated and parts removed and added depending on the feelings of the translator. The usual KJV version translated by a gay or bisexual king with funny english and somehow the bible ends up being the only book god wrote. who knows maybe he wrote the Qur'an or any of the other holy books.

if god wrote the bible why did he screw it up so people can't agree on what it says that it needed human translation that takes away from it.

[lipstickgoalie]

Christianity - pushing 2000 years old

Your belief system - maybe 300 years old

Evangelicals are about 13% of the Christian population of the world. Full on fundamentalists would be less than that. Please be aware that your brand of "Christianity" is not representative or definitive of even the majority of Christianity in the world.

Christian Fundamentalism is only about 100 years old. And no matter how he tries to spin it Christian Fundamentalism is anti-intellectual. Period. Point blank. End of story. That was, and in many ways still is, the entire point of the movement.

Again, I can't for the life of me figure out what he is doing here. (I say again because I am having flashbacks to Ken's visit.)

[Clementine]

hate Doug Phillips with such a white hot hate...

Hate = fundie speak for "you don't agree with me"!

So if this westchamps knew Doug before he knew Hero, it must have been before the year 2000 = 15 years ago. A person can change a lot in 15 years. I personally wouldn't step up and defend a person I had known 15 years ago and haven't had any contact with for more than five years.

[Hane]

Wow: I'm important enough that westchamps keeps quoting me, and considers me charming.

For the record, pal, I consider the Bible to be a compilation of timeless truths, interesting anecdotes, and total bullshit. No one has ever been able to prove to me that it's the infallible word of God. It's just a set of documents chosen by a committee and having a clear political agenda.

[uber frau]

Hate = fundie speak for "you don't agree with me"!

So if this westchamps knew Doug before he knew Hero, it must have been before the year 2000 = 15 years ago. A person can change a lot in 15 years. I personally wouldn't step up and defend a person I had known 15 years ago and haven't had any contact with for more than five years.

Besides, DPiaT was hardly radiating from his rectum then either. He saw fit to steal his ex-employers customer information to start his own 'ministry' for a start.

[westchamps]

Nope - I do need a break from fundy patriarses like you.

Speaking of you, if you despise FJ so much why are you here? How does your being here square with your Godly, Manly "Christian"* theology? What religious obligation are you fulfilling by coming here?

*I put Christian in quotation marks when referring to you because I have known & know Christians whom I love & respect. Compared to them, you, sirrah, are no Christian.

I already stated why I was here. Funny that you should accuse me of having issues with reading comprehension.

[westchamps]

I put glitter polish on my fingers today, over a fetching shade of OPI turquoise.

Oh, and I just turned 39. And I have no intention of tossing my glitter; my daughter and I--heathens that we are--enjoy painting our nails in fanciful and alluring hues.

Oh, and I am the breadwinner in my family. Survivor of homeschooled fundiestan, graduate degree-holder, mother of two, married to a lapsed Methodist, full-time employee, and lover of true crime novels and Doctor Who. Surely I will burn in hell forever, but I will do so with fantastic nails and free agency.

lol, ladyamylynn said it first, I just repeated it as a joke. Guess that was lost on you.

[westchamps]

As has already been pointed out cursing does not equal cussing. Sorry, just don't buy that line of reasoning.

Regardless of whether you think cussing and cursing are on an equal plane, I think they're both pretty obviously addressed in the following scripture, among others I already posted. Scatological references. Sexual slang that most of you wouldn't dare utter in polite society, perhaps even some of you who are not Christian. Yeah, I think those fit the bill of "filthy communication out of your mouth".

Colossians 3:8-10 - But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

But by all means, keep on trying to tell me how it is a beautiful thing for Christians to use foul language.

[westchamps]

I will explain about the Bingo comments - when what someone writes or says is so phenomenally predictable, word for word, for their mindset or type, it's a joke to imply that you are ticking off the list of things you knew they would say.

In fact, people actually make mock-ups of Bingo cards:

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/wp-cont ... lbingo.jpg

http://www.bullshitbingo.net/cards/action_movie_cliche/

It was not really for your benefit -- I trust you have noticed that others are reading and posting. And I imagine you feel the same way about us.

I never said VF was the only place or time women were kept back, which is what you mocked me for.

Funny that if you know so well exactly what is coming out of my mouth next, that you seem to have such a difficult time understanding some of the things I've said and have so many questions for me.

I looked at your "church sex scandal bingo", and while I'm sure Doug Phillips made very liberal use of some of those excuses once he and his paramour were found out, I haven't used any of them in this discussion, so I don't know what you're checking off. Those items are primarily about excusing sin. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I've said multiple times that Doug betrayed his principles, his family, his friends and all Christians with his actions and he deserved the consequences of Sin that he is currently experiencing. I've also said I wish this had all come out long ago, and that I think he's disqualified from future pastoral ministry. Does that sound like I'm excusing his sin?

[Rebelwife]

I'm guessing (or at least I hope your reading comprehension isn't that poor) that you are being deliberately obtuse. So, from this Christian - Fuck You.

Now I'm off, I've been down at my church for 2 straight weeks working on a volunteer project that is finally coming together and I can see the finish line. After that, I'm off to tutor children in a housing project, as I do every week, through a program that is run by our church. Too bad all that is negated by my coarse language.

[lemonhead]

lol, ladyamylynn said it first, I just repeated it as a joke. Guess that was lost on you.

Ah, keeping it classy, westchamps. Unfortunately, I like many people who grew up at the SOTDRT tend to have difficulty picking up on social cues, especially online. Of course, that wouldn't apply to you. /s (just in case you weren't sure).

[Maxwell]

Oh, and I just turned 39. And I have no intention of tossing my glitter; my daughter and I--heathens that we are--enjoy painting our nails in fanciful and alluring hues.

Lemonhead... sorry for butting in and appologies if this too personal but I must ask... what 'fanciful and alluring hue(s)' did you settle upon?

[FundieWatcher]

We get it westchamps, you know the most bible verses of anyone here. You are such a manly- patriarch-bible reader- important guy. You are going to have a house beside Jesus in heaven for coming here and setting all vagina people straight. Now you can retreat to your world where nobody curses or swears or whatever. Goodbye, have a beautiful time.

[thoughtful]

Funny that if you know so well exactly what is coming out of my mouth next, that you seem to have such a difficult time understanding some of the things I've said and have so many questions for me.

I looked at your "church sex scandal bingo", and while I'm sure Doug Phillips made very liberal use of some of those excuses once he and his paramour were found out, I haven't used any of them in this discussion, so I don't know what you're checking off. Those items are primarily about excusing sin. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I've said multiple times that Doug betrayed his principles, his family, his friends and all Christians with his actions and he deserved the consequences of Sin that he is currently experiencing. I've also said I wish this had all come out long ago, and that I think he's disqualified from future pastoral ministry. Does that sound like I'm excusing his sin?

I put up links to two typical parody bingo cards -- the other one was about predictable action movies -- just to show you how the joke works.

Of course I never claimed that you said anything from either Bingo card. You just inferred that.

Your Bingo card would look a bit different, but many things you have said were things we have all heard many, many times from people similar to you.

I have had no problem understanding you. I have only kept answering you to point out where you have "misread" something*, where you are misusing language (like, oh . . . . the word Christian), and to ask if you would tell us specifics about what was so different about Doug when you knew him well.

And that was not a trap so I could mock you or him -- it really was genuine curiosity. If Doug's affect was very different in the past, or if he really was different in deeper ways (morally, ethically, in his interpretation of Christianity, etc.), that would be interesting to know. We ride the Idle Speculation Bus a lot here, and first-hand observations are rare.

I have, at this point, given up on getting my curiosity satisfied.

So, did you guys here that Nolan Manteufel is married? :D I feel a little guilty that I handled one of the shovels that almost buried that info. Sorry, gang.

* I can't help thinking the "misreadings" are deliberate, at this point -- you seem to be a very dishonest debater.

I can't help thinking that, if one of us posted "2, 4, 6, 8," you'd answer with "Well, since you insist on 5 and 7, you are clearly wrong/not Christian/coarse." If you want a debate, don't answer what you have inferred (or decided to pretend you inferred) -- answer what was actually written.

edited for riffles

[westchamps]

Oh boy. Let's put it this way: I was incubated within a particular belief system from a very young age. You talk about my own volition? That's a nonexistent concept in the belief system in question. You are to stay "under authority," which essentially means unquestioning obedience. If I disagreed with anything, I had to do it secretly or give it up completely, because there could be no reasoning or questioning of the God-given authorities. Children are raised to follow directions, resulting in a generation of kids with serious setbacks in their abilities to survive outside the incubator, which cannot last forever. My parents were well-meaning and I love them, but they'd been fed an ideal and a formula that cripples rather than enables.

That line is right on, regarding the subjectivity. However, what does taking a test several grades ahead have to do with real life? Been there, done that. I was one of those kids—precocious, homeschooled, brought up in a straitjacket. I play 7 musical instruments. I have a decent intellectual capacity. I graduated high school at 16. I'm now in my early 20s, having been denied a college education by the belief system; it's been a struggle to be viewed as legitimate in my industry. I've made progress by working hard, but I'm stuck 4 years behind people of a comparable age and skill level; someday I hope to have the extra money to go back and get a degree. I was never allowed friends; when we kids became close with any one group, we would begin going to a different church (social circles were, of course, limited to church activities; youth group? No way!). I've made a lot of progress in this area as well but I am still incredibly naive in regards to social skills and how to interact normally. I understand you would most likely defend this, but if you can take a step back from the VF scope of reference and evaluate this kind of thing from a balanced viewpoint, there's no way that this is actually in the best interests of children if you actually want them to be able to cope and succeed in the world at large beyond a tiny corner of ultra-conservatism.

Look, I can see where you're coming from, and I have seen some homeschooled fundamentalist families/children like you're describing your own family and yourself. There is always a certain percentage of people that fall into the lowest common denominator within any subset or group of people. In the homeschooling/fundamental Christian world, in my experience, your family experience is the exception, not the rule. And let's not forget there are plenty of public-schooled children who have a problem with coping and succeeding in "the real world"! What's their excuse? That they weren't properly socialized?

I've been around homeschooling and homeschooling families for over 30 years, longer than you've been alive. In that time I've come into contact with oodles and oodles of homeschooling families. If your "standard" of whether or not they'll be able to succeed in the world at large is judged by whether or not they went to a high school prom or got their heart broken by their pre-teens sweetheart infatuation, then yeah, I guess lots of homeschooled children are going to be relegated to lives of mediocrity. Funny thing is, I couldn't even count all the homeschooled graduates I know, who never attended a high school prom, that have gone on to be successful in "the world at large". Who would have thought? I already mentioned my brother and my sister. That same sister went to work straight out of college at a Fortune 500 company and was a valued employee there, training other employees, until she decided to quit her job to come home to have children and raise them. My other sister had a very successful business when she was in her mid-teens where she successfully dealt with people in the "world at large" all the time. I was employed in my mid-teens by the city parks and recreation dept. where I lived to teach sports classes. Myself and most of my siblings played competitive sports, both team and individual. I have been self-employed in several successful business ventures for 98% of my adult life. My current business is service-based and we deal with customers in-person 5 days a week. Myself and my siblings were all accomplished musicians or singers, not just at home, but at church, in competition, etc.

I have 2 cousins who were educated at home also. They both played first chair in their respective instruments in their local symphony orchestra in their teens. One graduated with honors from West Point and is currently a tank commander in the Army. The other one graduated with honors from Vanderbilt University and is currently a helicopter pilot in the Army.

Similar stories on my wife's side of the family. Myself, my wife, and my cousins were all raised in very strict, conservative, fundamentalist Christian families. So is my experience exceptional and yours is the rule, or the other way around? I would say the other way around. In my experience, my family is not an exception, I know countless people who were home educated, raised in strict, fundamentalist families who have gone on to great things in the "real world".

By the way, you said you have been "denied a college education by the belief system". Do you still live at home under your very strict parents? If you wanted to go to college so badly, why didn't you go when you were no longer a minor? I myself have no college education (by my choice) and I have been extremely successful in "the real world". Some of the most brilliant and successful people in America have no college degrees. Here is a list of college dropout billionaires: Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell, Mark Zuckerberg, Sheldon Adelson, Steve Jobs. Among many others. There are millions of people in America who have no college degrees who lead successful lives in the "real world". College is not the holy grail, the ticket to success.

Regarding "social skills" and how to interact "normally"....our circle of friends was largely limited to church and other home educated children, as you have described yourself. Yet our social skills weren't naive and we have no problem whatever interacting "normally" in society on a daily basis. Nor do our children. I think it's more likely that your parents are to blame for your lack of social skills, not the fact that you were homeschooled.

I do sincerely hope that you find whatever it is that you're looking for to make a go at being whatever you deem to be "success" in your adult life. I do hope you can also come to fully appreciate, in time, the idea that no one has the ability to change their upbringing, but everyone has the ability to change their current circumstances. It's just a question of whether one has the will and initiative to do so. There are things about the way that my parents raised me that I chose to do differently with my own children. There's no reason to be a prisoner of your upbringing past if it wasn't a good experience for you.

[westchamps]

No, I asked where Jesus said something about it.

Many Christians do not believe that every single word in the Bible came straight from God through the human who wrote it, and was then translated perfectly into English.

And don't bother telling me that they are, therefore, not Christians -- it's not your place or mine to decide that.

Jesus is God.

I'm not sure which Christians you're talking about, but the ones I know do believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Since you've already said you're not a Christian, it's probably a pretty fair assumption that I spend a lot more time around other Christians than you do.

[westchamps]

Your shock has been noted.

Your expectations have been noted.

Clearly there are people here who identify as Christian and who also use "coarse" language. Again, your shock has been noted. Your opinions about the connection or lack thereof between their identified religious affiliation and their language are just that, opinions. And not especially relevant to the topic.

Presumably you are intelligent enough to learn from your experiences; thus, you now know to expect such language, since you have seen it with your own eyes.

Can we move on now?

lol, I'm not the one who keeps bringing up the Terms of Registration here to defend the language.

[lemonhead]

Lemonhead... sorry for butting in and appologies if this too personal but I must ask... what 'fanciful and alluring hue(s)' did you settle upon?

I chose one of the new OPI "San Francisco" colors called "Dining al Frisco," topped with a clear glitter coat. A little whimsical perhaps, but since I'm not meeting with any clients in person this week, I can get away with it :)

In fact, as I was touching up my glittery awesomeness this morning, I had an epiphany about westchamps and his ilk (and my family of origin, for that matter). I think being fundie does not cause one to become an asshole; rather, being an asshole predisposes one to becoming fundie. The fundie belief and behavior system is a perfect socially-approved vehicle for pre-existing personality traits such as "controlling blowhard" and "self-righteous narcissist." It sanctions the very behaviors those kinds of folks love to engage in. And that explains why there are many self-professed non-fundie Christians on this board who seem to be very kind and good people, while virtually every fundie Christian I have encountered in real life and online has exhibited the same confrontational style and rigid-thinking characteristics as westchamps.