Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

[westchamps]

I just have to note that many of us here--myself included--grew up in fundamentalist Christian families, and what we see in BCA and Dougie is sadly not "largely caricatured." Rather, it is largely representative of our experiences, but admittedly wrapped up in an abundance of soaring cellos and mazel tovs.

But my experience is mostly with Gothardism, not Dougie, so I will go back to lurking on this thread.

I would say that many of the teachings of Gothard vs. Doug Phillips were quite different, and in some cases completely opposed. They clearly had different ideas about women being keepers at home (Titus 2:5) and working in a submissive role for men not their fathers or husbands.

[SamuraiKatz]

Nope, just that Christians would engage in such conversation.

What the ever loving hell? Judgemental much? Who set YOU up as the decider of what a proper christian would do? As for Doug and his affair....I'm not surprised he had an affair. I'm just surprised it was with a woman. Old Doug always pinged my gaydar. Still pings my gaydar. Now away with you you obnoxious, holier than thou, pretentious, judgemental troll.

And for good measure: damn, shit, hell, fuck, ass. Bad words said.

[thoughtful]

Westchamps, all of the discussion about Doug aside, can you take a few minutes to learn to use the quote feature?

(without the space) at the beginning, [/quote ] (without the space) at the end. If there aren't as many of the first as there are of the second, things become unclear. You can always preview your post to make sure things are nested in a way that makes it clear who said what.

If it drives you nuts, just take them all out, and write something like "thoughtful said:" then "here's my answer:"

I notice that you left out the part about the people who pulled me in not being embellishers:

You said that you could see that Doug "embellished" (ergo, lied). And, since you were the one who quoted Scripture at me about small sins being as serious as big ones and indicative of one's "fruit," I figure you would have taken that seriously.

I would like to hear specifics of the good, Christian things Doug did -- was he working for charitable organizations, giving work or food to the poor? Was he as manic and flowery when you knew him? Was a modest man just trying to get by and be decent, or trying to be a Man Among Men, leading a flock?

Yes, I didn't know Doug when you were close to him, and I don't know him now. You could be right -- perhaps Doug has changed dramatically. As several of us have said, maybe there is even a medical reason. I was only half-kidding when I said maybe he had a stroke.

But you are not giving us any reason to believe he was ever different from how he appears now. If you don't want to, no problem, but I'm not going to take your word for it. I was just really curious.

In the long run, it doesn't matter, since he is who he is now, and has to live with what he did and how it changed his life and hurt others, including his children.

Expecting Christians to "act like Christians," whatever your definition is, and handslapping us about it, is only a tiny corner of what makes you sound full of yourself and self-righteous. Pretty much everything you write is a masterwork of bloviation, pontificating and mansplaining.

Man, you're repetitive. One more time -- I don't care whether Christians are "coarse" or not -- it's none of my business. But (one more time!), as far as I know, the definition of being Christian is a belief in Jesus as divine/the Son of God/one's savior, however you want to put it.

So, Christians can wear plaid, speak Swahili, do drugs, help the poor, amass a fortune, curse like sailors, eat strawberries, etc. (I cannot list every single human behavior, sorry! :lol: ). As far as I know, none of those things make them not a Christian.

Now, if you have your own definition of True Christian, that is different.

And I need to check off another Bingo square. ;)

[westchamps]

Cute. Nice that you claim to think that Prosperity Theology is nonsense. And yet, Doug Phillips made money hand over fist from exploiting his flock. You also seem to think that Christians deserve to live well. See above.

Prosperity Theology is nonsense. Completely un-Biblical. I challenge you to produce one shred of evidence that Doug believed in or taught "Prosperity Theology", aka "Name it and Claim it", at any time.

How do you know how much money Doug made, and how is selling products that people are willing and ready to buy considered "exploitation"? It's not like he was hawking "anointed" kleenex or something. I never once felt exploited by any of the items I purchased from Vision Forum, most of which were not written by Doug or speeches by Doug.

And please show me where I said that Christians deserve to live well?

Good and "politically correct" answers. Actually, I have no interest in Doug's repentance. I'd just like to see him moving away from denial and blaming of others for his ethical failings. I do think he has proven himself unfit for future pastoral work because of that denial. God may forgive "sins," but trust on earth can and should be lost forever in some cases.

Not politically correct, straight from my heart. And for once I agree with the rest of what you wrote there.

legalistic Biblical "teachings" that you are still enthralled by

What I believe isn't legalistic, it is based upon Biblical teachings. If you have a problem with that, then your problem is with the Bible, not me. Whether or not you agree with what the Bible says about such teachings is another story.

and - frankly- you, yourself, went wrong

Where did I, myself, go wrong? Doug went wrong, he betrayed his principles. What he did doesn't invalidate the Bible. In the absence of Jesus himself being on earth doing the teaching, the only people we have to preach and exposit the Bible are human beings, and guess what, there was only one who was perfect, and he's sitting at the right hand of God. All the otherss are sinners, they're not perfect, they frequently fail, fall, and sin. It doesn't necessarily invalidate their message, just them as the messenger.

You are here trying to glean information from us because you cannot get straight answers from people within your so-called "Christian" faith.

No, I'm here (among other places) trying to glean information because I've been so long away from Doug's close circle of friends and associates that I hardly know any of them. I've met a handful, but I would hardly even call them acquaintances.

Perhaps chiding us for "language" makes you feel good temporarily

You still don't seem to quite understand. I'm not chiding you for your language, as I don't expect you to have clean, wholesome language. I do expect Christians to.

[ThisOlGirl]

Kinda over Ken 2.0 (or was Cabinet Man Ken 2.0? Eh, who gives a turkey?). Sooo...

Congrats to the Manteufels! Now it makes sense why Nolan was so fired up--someone he loves very much was hurt by Doug Phillips Is A Tool. Total speculation here, but maybe Hero's engagement is what caused Tool-O-Ween. What I mean is maybe once Hero and Nolan got serious, she felt the need to confide in him what had gone on with Dougie. Word got out, people took sides, Dougie was confronted, etc. I'm now thinking back on all the hate Nolan got from Sippy's brother, Nathaniel Darnell, and some others, and what that was REALLY all about. I wouldn't put it past a dirtbag like Darnell to say something ugly about Hero to Nolan Like "Reall? You're going to marry HER?" (Since we can all see how much Darnell hates women). Anyhoo, just thinking out loud. I'll put the Idle Speculation Bus in park for now.

[gustava]

Time for a mani-pedi.

[westchamps]

Your fond of "by their fruits, you shall know them". So what is the fruit of fundementists Christians in the US? Poor education.

What?

More divorce then their secular counterparts, as statistics show.

Sadly, this may be true and it is a terrible indictment of the "warm fuzzy, don't upset any tithe-paying parishioners by preaching about Sin and Hell" Gospel that is being preached from pulpits in so many churches today.

Begrudging paying taxes that could possibly go to the unworthy having medical care, better education, etc.

Again, what? How did Socialism and forced wealth redistribution come to be part of this discussion?

Child discipline that can be summed up as "beat them early, beat them often".

The Bible is very clear on child discipline. Sounds like you have a problem with the Bible.

And you are in a snit that there are women who a Christians who cuss? You remember Jesus talking about cleaning the outside of a cup when the inside was a tomb?

Is this a "women-only" forum? If so, that's news to me, and I certainly never singled out the Christian women on this forum. Except for a few screen names and pictures, I have no idea who on here is even a woman and who is a man.

[thoughtful]

I don't call it being strong-willed. I call it taking personal responsibility, something that unfortunately is becoming ever more rare in America today. Everyone wants to pass the buck.

Checking off another Bingo square . . .

Everyone should take personal responsibility (the woman in the events we are discussing did so, let's not forget). But it is not as easy for some as it is for others.

Let me try an analogy. I'm assuming you are able-bodied and of average height. Picture yourself in a room full of bookshelves, with someone who uses a wheelchair, someone who is blind, a person who speaks no English, and a toddler. Another person enters the room, asks if anyone could get a particular book off of a six-foot-high shelf, and gestures vaguely towards the shelf in question.

No challenge, for you. But the other people in the room would have perfectly natural reasons why taking responsibility for that task would be harder for them.

Just as people have differences in physical structure, age, and language, there are also differences in personality, in susceptibility to fear and to being controlled.

Being raised in a cult like Doug's can make men like you feel confident and strong. But it might make others feel helpless and hopeless, or very secure but only as long as they keep obeying, or don't overthink things. Just as you say I can't really know Doug or his followers, you can't know what everyone around you is feeling.

But, even outside of a cult, some people naturally have a more timid nature, or blame themselves more readily, or have anxiety or depression that is every bit as physical as being blind or only 2 years old.

There are many reasons why being pulled in by a charming authority figure who wants you to do wrong is not something for which anyone and everyone to whom it happens should be as censured and blamed as the authority figure.

BTW, I do take personal responsibility, and do believe that everyone should try to do so. I also know that now, in my late 50s, that is exponentially easier for me than it was when I was a terrified, timid child and young woman, who hated making waves.

And, since the system Doug built is the thing that keeps women undereducated and both girls and boys limited and warped in their view of the world and their place in it, they might find it harder than those who were raised outside the cult.

You really are reaching. Show me where I said that his little group was the only place this ever happened. But it seems you are admitting that Doug wants women to be less educated than men.

I freely admit I don't think I know anyone IRL who was a Dougie devotee. But don't forget, we have the Internet now (hey, we're on it at the moment!) -- these people blog and video and spout who they are and what they believe all over the place. I'm only going by what they say and how they write and speak.

Then your problem isn't with Doug Phillips, it's with the Bible. The Bible is full of examples of "patriarchy".

There are no squares left - I need a new card. :D

[westchamps]

Hey, ladyamylynn, I'm still waiting for KnightinShiningAmour to come back and explain to me why patriarchy would be so beneficial to me, an educated, self-supporting divorced woman in her 60s, who raised an intelligent, educated, happily employed AND happily married young mother.

Hey--let's start a pool:

How long will it take him to flounce? And how many times will he come back after announcing he's leaving FOREVER?

How pleasant. :roll:

[westchamps]

Then since you have no actual knowledge of events, why are you here?

To defend the man you thought you knew over 10 years ago? To defend patriarchy? To set those crazy women on FJ straight?

Those are all losing propositions. And yes, compared to your predecessors you are boring. Your discussion level doesn't even make you a good cat toy for batting around.

:shifty-kitty: :shifty-kitty: :shifty-kitty:

So sorry to disappoint.

[westchamps]

I didn't suggest otherwise.

But Patriarchy does set up an entire society in which men lead and women submit and obey, in which men are touted as leaders, regardless of their qualifications or charisma. This man was the head of an entire Patriarchal community, and to some, very charismatic.

Your words above, yet you didn't suggest that Doug's "patriarchy" had an extra little something out of the ordinary to do with this affair? Could have fooled me.

[westchamps]

Again, why? What does that have to do with being Christian?

If you have to ask....

[ThisOlGirl]

Is 39 too old to wear glitter nail polish? I'm thinking it's okay for my toes.

[doggie]

gs" that you are still enthralled by

What I believe isn't legalistic, it is based upon Biblical teachings. If you have a problem with that, then your problem is with the Bible, not me. Whether or not you agree with what the Bible says about such teachings is another story.

[ladyamylynn]

Hey, ladyamylynn, I'm still waiting for KnightinShiningAmour to come back and explain to me why patriarchy would be so beneficial to me, an educated, self-supporting divorced woman in her 60s, who raised an intelligent, educated, happily employed AND happily married young mother.

Oh, westchamps. So long, farewell, auf wiedersehn, fuck you.

Hey--let's start a pool:

How long will it take him to flounce? And how many times will he come back after announcing he's leaving FOREVER?

I would guess he lasts a while. He's got that dull, plodding lack of cleverness that might make him think he can convince us godless heathens that cussing is a SIN. I hope his neck doesn't chafe from all the pearl-clutching.

[anniebgood]

The Bible doesn't say that money is the root of all evil. It says that the love of money is the root of all evil. Jesus said it was difficult for a rich man to get into heaven. Not impossible. Then again, Jesus also said "Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it". I don't think he's just talking about rich guys there. Having financial wealth is not a sin. It's what one does with the financial wealth one has, that is good or evil.

So, you do the above bolded part (hold your wealth collectively), or you just think that Christians should?

Bible says by your fruit you will know them. A good tree doesn't produce bad fruit and a bad tree doesn't produce good fruit.

If the shoe fits.

Doug and Beall confronted his younger sister when she graduated from college with a degree in vocal music and basically told her she must move to Texas and live with them, learn to be a SAHD/W and give up her dreams. If she didn't do this, she'd be damned for eternity and spend it in hell. This upset his sister greatly.

She has gone on forward to a blossoming opera career in Europe, free from their grasp.

Yes such a godly man threatening his own sister. YMMV.

[thoughtful]

Ephesians 5:4

Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.

Ephesians 4:29

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Colossians 3:8-10

But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Not Jesus -- Paul.

Matthew 12:37

For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

For all you know, he was speaking about telling the truth, not "cuss words." In fact, isn't Matthew 12 one of the speeches about self-righteous Pharisee types? Jesus might have been happier with what we are saying here than what you are.

Matthew 15:10-11

And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.â€

This sounds like it's about no longer needing to keep Kosher. And again, we have no way of knowing if Jesus would have been less offended by someone saying the things you are than he would about swearing and calling out hypocrites.

2 Timothy 2:16

But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness

Paul again.

James 3:10

From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.

James starts with a J, unlike Paul, but that's still not a quote from Jesus.

Proverbs 11:13

Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets, but he who is trustworthy in spirit keeps a thing covered.

Proverbs, not Jesus.

Not to mention that discussing the truth is not slandering, and keeping secrets, in the context of what we are discussing, seems like the worst possible thing to do!

Really, we have no way of knowing if Jesus would have been deeply offended by someone saying "shit" -- I don't think that "swear words" were what they were referring to when they talked about cursing in those days.

[Coconut Flan]

OPI's You PInk Too Much seems very appropriate right now.

[westchamps]

The TOU say nothing about being Christian or non-Christian. They simply inform would-be participants that VERY BAD LANGUAGE is used here. Apparently, your reading comprehension sucks.

I think you need a mirror. I already said multiple times I wasn't surprised to see foul/coarse language here, just didn't expect it from people who claim to be Christians.

[westchamps]

Why do you make the assumption that I'm "in for a real treat"?

There's lots more about him out there. Google is your friend.

Why would I want to know more about him? I'm not a fan of the mega-church, I'm not a Calvinist, and I'm the furthest thing from a misogynist. I love my wife and my daughters dearly.

After glancing through the Wikipedia information you copied, I do recall reading something about the controversy over some parts in his book some time back. I didn't remember the name of the guy or the book but it is coming back to me now since you mentioned it. I seem to recall thinking at the time that I wouldn't want to attend his church if it was the last one on the planet.

[thoughtful]

Your words above, yet you didn't suggest that Doug's "patriarchy" had an extra little something out of the ordinary to do with this affair? Could have fooled me.

Point out where I said that it was more likely to happen in a patriarchal church. I don't see it.

[halfheartedheroine]

Is 39 too old to wear glitter nail polish? I'm thinking it's okay for my toes.

I love glitter nail polish, but I have the darnedest time trying to remove it without soaking my nails in nail polish remover and making them all scratchy and damaged, even with a clear undercoat before the glitter. It's bright and festive, though, especially for spring!

[Arete]

What?

Sadly, this may be true and it is a terrible indictment of the "warm fuzzy, don't upset any tithe-paying parishioners by preaching about Sin and Hell" Gospel that is being preached from pulpits in so many churches today.

Again, what? How did Socialism and forced wealth redistribution come to be part of this discussion?

The Bible is very clear on child discipline. Sounds like you have a problem with the Bible.

Is this a "women-only" forum? If so, that's news to me, and I certainly never singled out the Christian women on this forum. Except for a few screen names and pictures, I have no idea who on here is even a woman and who is a man.

I'm still waiting for a fundamentalist Christian Nobel Prize Winner, Ivy League School President, Oscar Winning Director, Astronaut, Physicist, etc. Hell, I want ALL homeschooling fundementalists to have the GUTS to have their children take the yearly state exams that children in the public schools have to take. Most won't, because if they did the numbers would not be pretty or in your favor.

Which brings us into the numbers about divorce, which are pretty black and white and if you want to do it legally, you still have to do it through the state and be counted. You can have the pastor denouncing divorce from the pulpit every Sunday and twice on Wednesday, it isn't going to do any good. The congregation knows that divorce is not good, and yet they still divorce at a higher rate than atheists. They get married too young, have incomplete knowledge about sex and human feelings, are not told that they don't have to stay in the man/breadwinner woman/homemaker roles for God to love them, buy into this garbage about courtship and chaperoning so they never get to really know the person they are supposedly vowing to spent eternity with, do not have the tools to adapt as their life circumstances change.

Do you honestly read the New Testament and think that Jesus stands for Capitalism or would approve of how it is practiced in the US? I know it blows fundamentalist circuits, but the way Jesus lived, and the way the apostles continued to live as they spread Christianity, WAS embryonic socialism. Those who had more gave to be distributed for the community's needs. And no one is talking about forced wealth distribution. If you want to live as close to the New Testament ideal as possible, you need to voluntarily agree to give your wealth for the benefit of the entire community. Here is a hint, Jesus did not hang with the upright members of his community. He interacted with the marginalized. He healed the marginalized. He gave hope to the marginalized. The healing and hope made people listen further and want to do better. He did not give them lectures about how short they came up as human beings. Same with the early church. They used their money to feed the poor, and poor, not just followers of the Way. They buried the dead, any dead, not just followers of the Way. They rescued abandoned children. They did not go out and lecture about how pagans were going to go to hell if they didn't believe, but repeat these magic words (insert "sinner's prayer" here) and the afterlife was all yours. Sorry that your hungry or sick loser, go out and get a job!

There are far better Christians who understand the scriptures with a lot more discernment than most evangelicals who will tell you that raising your hand to a child, especially your own child, is wrong. They have read Proverbs as well. More statistics back them up that children who are not spanked have less delinquency, drug use, better grades, etc. So no, my problem is not with the Bible, it is with the Bible thumpers. There are many ways to read the Bible, and "literally, word for word, with no context", is an evangelical invention at most 3 centuries old.

Christianity existed before Martin Luther, and the majority of the world's Christians are not even Protestant, much less American evangelical Protestant. Get a clue as to the real place of your interpretation of the Bible in the hierarchy of Christianity before you talk nonsense like "Your problem is with the Bible". Once again, no. It is with the Bible thumpers. Big difference.

[geeklove]

I just wanted to point out that language can be subjective and culture based. You probably wouldn't be offended by the phrase, Holy Cow, but it is insulting to Hindus. My dear, devout grandmother read the bible every day but she would say shit, because that was what she grew up hearing. And lets not forget that the n-word used to be okay in polite society, but we wouldn't dare use it now.

[SamuraiKatz]

Is 39 too old to wear glitter nail polish? I'm thinking it's okay for my toes.

My lil sis is 45 and she wears sparkly nail polish. Glitter away :-)