Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

[westchamps]

God is a human construct by which humans attempt to explain that which is beyond the understanding of the human mind.

You're certainly free to think that if it keeps you warm at night.

Whatever belief gives you comfort is acceptable. Calling those of us who dare to question the bullshit of mere mortal fallible human beings "coarse" is not.

Instance #8 (at least) of saying that I'm not questioning the coarse language of the non-Christians here, only the Christians.

Free reading comprehension lessons on the house. Sign-up here: http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/

[westchamps]

Shit...IE crapped out on me and I lost my post...lemme see if I remember it all...

Ok...regarding "coarse language"...there's a HUGE difference between cursing and cussing. Jesus hung out with a bunch of fishermen, right? I seriously doubt they said "golly gee willikers" when they sliced their hands on the nets...

Regarding that rod you're so fond of...do you know the context? The rod is referencing the staff the shepherd carried when the sheep were out to pasture. He used that rod to keep the sheep out of trouble (sheep are notoriously stupid), not to beat the shit out of them. So...to apply it to children goes something like this...the rod is a figurative symbol (that would have been well-understood in the ancient society) and to use it on your children means to guide them into the right paths and keep them out of trouble...not to beat the shit out of them either.

You fundies forget that the verses you cherry-pick are not to be taken out of context. The divisions of chapters and verses are man-made. Those books and letters were meant to be read as a whole...

And if you'd care to argue with me, go for it. I have a bachelors in religion from a rather conservative Baptist university...graduated with a 3.7 GPA.

So when the Bible says "He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently", we should eschew the plain meaning there and replace it with the obviously more obvious thing it is talking about there of a shepherd with his sheep. Including one that he calls his "son"? Please, let's hear more.

And....

Proverbs 23:13-15

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. My son, if your heart is wise, my heart too will be glad.

Is that also talking about sheep? Do sheep have a "soul", and can their heart be "wise"?

What about....

Hebrews 12:11

For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

I've never read about a "righteous" common barnyard sheep. Have you?

Proverbs 22:15

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Did it really say "kid/lamb" in the original language it was written in?

Enlighten me. Please.

[VVV]

You're certainly free to think that if it keeps you warm at night.

Instance #8 (at least) of saying that I'm not questioning the coarse language of the non-Christians here, only the Christians.

Free reading comprehension lessons on the house. Sign-up here: http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/

This Christian is more offended by passive-aggressive rudeness than by coarse language. :naughty:

[Alcyone]

lol, so that's your "measuring stick" to prove that fundamentalist Christians aren't just a bunch of dumb hicks from the sticks? How do you know, by the way, that there has never been a fundamentalist Christian Astronaut or Physicist?

This is l-a-u-g-h-a-b-l-e. My siblings and I were home educated and were not required to take achievement tests, but our parents wanted us to anyway. So we did. Every year. Iowa Tests. More difficult than the California achievement tests that many public schooled children were taking. We routinely tested 3-4 grade levels ahead of the average same-age public-schooled peers. In every subject. My sister graduated college at age 18 from a huge, well-known state university as the youngest female graduate in the 120+ year history of the school. While working to help pay her way through school. My brother scored 1550 on his SAT, was an amateur concert pianist and graduated with honors from a top 5 in the nation law school and now works at one of the top 20 corporate law firms in the country. Yep, just a bunch of dumb fundie hicks from the sticks. It is the rule, not the exception, that home educated children score better in standardized tests than their same-age public-schooled peers. Don't believe me, look it up. http://www.nheri.org/

We take our own children to be assessed every year once a year by a woman with a PHD in education, and they routinely are assessed at 3-4 grade levels ahead of same-age public school peers.

According to this 2011 article, home educated children have won the National Spelling Bee 4 times, and that particular year, even though only 2.9% of America's school children are educated at home, 9.8% of that year's contestants were home educated. http://archive.wired.com/geekmom/2011/0 ... ing-facts/ - bunch of dumb hicks, I tell you, just don't know the first thing about edjumacationizing their kids, prefer to keep 'em down and stupid, huh?

Funny thing is, my wife and I are the perfect example of the picture you are painting of "divorce prone" young Christians, except for all the problems you listed. We went through courtship, married young, didn't go out on dates, never kissed until after the preacher said "man and wife" and....by golly....17 years and a bunch of kids later, we're happier and more fulfilled now than we've ever been. And we know a bunch of others who mirror our own experience. In fact, I can't think of a single fundamentalist Christian home educated people marriage, off the top of my head, of people I know, that has ended in divorce. All of my siblings are married as well, and what do you know, none of them are divorced, either, having been married anywhere from 20 years down to 3 years. I guess we all got lucky and just defied the odds, huh? Ummm....no.

I would love to know what the Scripture means when it says that you hate your children if you spare the rod of discipline, if it means something other than what it says, as you are implying. Feel free to inform me.

westchamps, I have not been involved in this discussion but I saw your request here for further information on "sparing the rod". You mention that your daughters are in their teens but I have the feeling that you also have younger children. For their sake, I urge you to look into what other Biblical Christians have said about the rod verses. For instance, Clay Clarkson is probably a familiar to you, since you have decades of interactions with homeschoolers. He wrote a book not long ago titled "Heartfelt Discipline". You could also check out a website called Parenting Freedom. Both of these resources are from a Christian perspective. No snark at all from me, westchamps. I honestly plead with you to consider alternative interpretations that will spare your children, not from discipline, but from physical violence.

[Sola]

I think you need a mirror. I already said multiple times I wasn't surprised to see foul/coarse language here, just didn't expect it from people who claim to be Christians.

We're not all Christians, fuckwit. Some of us don't give a fuck what the bible says. Some of us think it's a load of bullshit.

[Alcyone]

So when the Bible says "He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently", we should eschew the plain meaning there and replace it with the obviously more obvious thing it is talking about there of a shepherd with his sheep. Including one that he calls his "son"? Please, let's hear more.

And....

Proverbs 23:13-15

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. My son, if your heart is wise, my heart too will be glad.

Is that also talking about sheep? Do sheep have a "soul", and can their heart be "wise"?

What about....

Hebrews 12:11

For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

I've never read about a "righteous" common barnyard sheep. Have you?

Proverbs 22:15

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Did it really say "kid/lamb" in the original language it was written in?

Enlighten me. Please.

The passages you are quoting referring to using a rod for discipline are in the Old Testament. And in Proverbs, to boot, which is not a book of commands but a book of sayings. Did not Jesus come to put an end to the need to "rule-keep" and usher in the kingdom of love? "What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline, or shall I come in love and with a gentle spirit?" I Cor 4:21

[church_of_dog]

We're not all Christians, fuckwit. Some of us don't give a fuck what the bible says. Some of us think it's a load of bullshit.

I can't figure out why he continues to be surprised. I can accept that he has his opinion about what kind of language Christians (his experience of them) tend to use. Ok fine. Then he comes here and discovers that there are people here who do identify as Christian who also use language he deems "coarse". So that produces surprise, maybe like this: :o OK but now he sees that this is par for the course (coarse?) here -- so, no longer a surprise, let's move on! Unless, of course, his real message is not "I'm surprised" but "You're wrong and I'm here to reform you"… Sorry, bud, not interested. We get it, there are people here who don't fit your mental cubbyholes. OK, noted. Next topic?

[Nutamole]

Search engines are picking up a World Net Daily article titled "Pastor accused of using Nanny as sex object"-- indicating that the long-awaited lawsuit has now been filed. I cannot yet get the actual article to link it.

[formergothardite]

I just have to note that many of us here--myself included--grew up in fundamentalist Christian families, and what we see in BCA and Dougie is sadly not "largely caricatured." Rather, it is largely representative of our experiences, but admittedly wrapped up in an abundance of soaring cellos and mazel tovs.

But my experience is mostly with Gothardism, not Dougie, so I will go back to lurking on this thread.

ITA. My parents did get into buying Vision Forum stuff and I remember the magazines coming to the house. But, yeah, a whole lot of us grew up in fundamental Christian families so we have actual experience with it.

[ThisOlGirl]

Against my better judgement, I'm going to ask westchamp a question. You said in your very first post that you came here looking for info about the Dougie scandal. It has been mentioned at least once (by Thoightful?) that we don't have any inside info. We get our info from other sources, and since this is a SNARK SITE, we SNARK. And speculate. I think you would agree that you're not going to find the info you're looking for here at FJ. So I guess my question isn't why are you here, but rather why are you still here? I'm not going to argue with you, I don't give a rat's ass about the other topics that you have addressed with the other posters. I just want to know one thing--what are you STILL doing here?

[lemonhead]

Search engines are picking up a World Net Daily article titled "Pastor accused of using Nanny as sex object"-- indicating that the long-awaited lawsuit has now been filed. I cannot yet get the actual article to link it.

Found it! http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/pastor-accus ... -object-2/

Not breaking b/c it's not a fundie site.

[lemonhead]

And a copy of the official complaint filed at the courthouse today: http://www.wnd.com/files/2014/04/Torres ... rSheet.pdf

Aaaand included therein are the elusive dainty morsels we have so long wondered about. I feel like I need another shower now :disgust:

[SamuraiKatz]

You're certainly free to think that if it keeps you warm at night.

Instance #8 (at least) of saying that I'm not questioning the coarse language of the non-Christians here, only the Christians.

Free reading comprehension lessons on the house. Sign-up here: http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/

Oh Bitch please! If the only thing you can insult is my intellect, then you have no argument. :nenner:

[Nutamole]

And a copy of the official complaint filed at the courthouse today: http://www.wnd.com/files/2014/04/Torres ... rSheet.pdf

Thanks, Lemonhead! All I could actually get was an article about Mexican soldiers, for some reason!

Congrats, Nolan and [hero] (although I think we can now use her real name) on your marriage, and for hauling Doug's behind (I usually don't use cr-ass language) into court, where it belongs!

[ThisOlGirl]

This news warms the cockles of my cold, black heart!

[formergothardite]

I think you need a mirror. I already said multiple times I wasn't surprised to see foul/coarse language here, just didn't expect it from people who claim to be Christians.

Having been raised in the fundamental Christian lifestyle it was shocking to me when I found out that there were Christians who didn't believe like I did. It seems like you are just discovering this concept. I remember meeting Christians who believed in women pastors, gay marriage, evolution, egalitarian marriages, and that the Bible wasn't literally true and it was shocking at first. When you have been raised that way your mind has been trained to shut out anything that doesn't fit into the narrow interpretation that the Christian fundamentalists leaders tell you is the way to interpret the Bible. And yes, the first reaction is to try and shame the Christians who don't believe like you do, but I hope that you, like so many others have done, can learn to understand that not every Christian is going to agree with how you interpret the Bible and that is okay. And it doesn't mean that they are worse Christians than you or that you are better in any way.

One of the attractions of fundamental Christians beliefs is that it gives people a sense that they are better than all others. That they have the only right way to interpret the Bible. That they have the only right way to believe. And if they meet people who believe differently they can smugly think about how they are sooooo much better than those "bad" Christians. And now that I am out of this mindset I can see that it is built around pride and making people feel superior to others.

[Nutamole]

Haven't finished the article yet (warning-- Westchamps-- graphic descriptions) but this is classic!

"He further repeatedly told Ms. Hero that he loved her, that he would take care of her, and that what they were doing was not wrong. He also stated that if it was wrong, it was completely her fault.â€

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/pastor-accus ... i3Yc8iu.99

[J'ean Skirt]

Thanks, Lemonhead! All I could actually get was an article about Mexican soldiers, for some reason!

Congrats, Nolan and [hero] (although I think we can now use her real name) on your marriage, and for hauling Doug's behind (I usually don't use cr-ass language) into court, where it belongs!

Gee, everything I said earlier about Doug using the tenets of patriarchy to facilitate his abuse... it's in the lawsuit.

Phillips’s patriarchal movement teaches that men are, and should be, in the absolute control of women. Patriarchy considers women to primarily exist for the purposes of producing children, caring for the men, and rearing the children. Females in the patriarchal movement are discouraged from attaining higher education of any kind and are told that their sole purpose is to marry a man within the movement to meet the purposes described above. In other words, women within this movement are perceived to exist only for the end-goals communicated by the male leaders that perceive themselves

as the “patriarchs†of this world.

I read the rest of the complaint. This does not look good for Dougie the Tool.

[lemonhead]

Wait--is her attorney the same David Gibbs of National Center for Life and Liberty (NCLL.org) who was "investigating" the Gothard mess?

[Curious]

I haven't read this thread since part 1, I think, so when I noticed people "complaining" about a new member in another thread, I decided I better take a look at it. I'm still back on page 16, but wanted to say that I'm starting to miss the "good old days" when our fundie visitors came screaming in that we are "all going to hell" and left after 2-3 posts.

[tropaka]

Found it! http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/pastor-accus ... -object-2/

Not breaking b/c it's not a fundie site.

Holy Shit...so now we have it. I have a new respect for her parents and and think even less of Beall (since she sent Hero a threatening letter). I think it's quite clear that this wasn't exactly a consensual "relationship".

[formergothardite]

Wait--is her attorney the same David Gibbs of National Center for Life and Liberty (NCLL.org) who was "investigating" the Gothard mess?

Looks like it might be.

[Maxwell]

From the article:

He (Doug's Attorney) wrote, “In the absence of any serious interest from Mrs. Torres-Manteufel for Christian conciliation, and rather than trying the case through the media we intend to rely on justice through the courts for our clients’ vindication.â€

This should be good! :-)

[salex]

And a copy of the official complaint filed at the courthouse today: http://www.wnd.com/files/2014/04/Torres ... rSheet.pdf

Aaaand included therein are the elusive dainty morsels we have so long wondered about. I feel like I need another shower now :disgust:

Alrighty then.

Tell me again why Beal is still anywhere near this guy?

And any bets Hero isn't the only one?

[lemonhead]

From the article:

He (Doug's Attorney) wrote, “In the absence of any serious interest from Mrs. Torres-Manteufel for Christian conciliation, and rather than trying the case through the media we intend to rely on justice through the courts for our clients’ vindication.â€

This should be good! :-)

I'm close enough (geographically) that I may just have to take a little trip down IH35 if this ever goes to trial.