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happy atheist

Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

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happy atheist

Part 1: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19831

Part 2: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19945

Part 3: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20076

Part 4: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20272

Part 5: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20492

Part 6: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20934

 

Doug Phillips resigned from Vision Forum after an inappropriate relationship with a woman he claims he did not know in a biblical sense. Vision Forum shut their doors. Jen Epstein and T.W. Eston blogged like there was no tomorrow. Dainty morsels were given.

 

If anyone has any other pertinent info to add please do so! Otherwise, the saga, and the discussion, continues!

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WonderingInWA

Posting here so I get to stay in the loop.

Oh, and Doug Phillips is a Tool. :)

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Wine time!
nokidsmom

Wow, the Dougie saga is on it's 7th thread! There will quite a few more I suspect.

I was editing my post on the last thread and couldn't post becaues of thread being locked so here it is:

Evidence of how focus and twisted their views are/were is the so called meetings between her parents, Doug and Beall. Who the hell even does that? Who considers that an option? Doug does. Doug was caught and his way to shift blame, regret, shame and fear was to have eveyone pulled into his bubble. They all sat in that bubble and let him run ripshod over them. Had it been dealt with in any other manner, he would have been steam rolled. He knows that so he used his life-long culture as a weapon. He no doubt pulled out terms like biblical, repent, sin, headship, protection -whatever key words used to control these people in the first place, and twisted them fit his needs. I am sure he led those meetings and I am sure he controlled evrything about them. Even her parents probably came out of them thinking they'd done wrong and needed to repent.

Agree. Dougie had everyone doubting themselves, including the parents. In another world, they would have told him to go jump and Beall would have kicked him to the curb. But no, they all sit down and talk about it and he gets some kind of validity from the very people he has harmed. Because he's still right you know. Gotta be right at all costs.

That is majorly effed up.

@Hane. Thanks and hugs to you too! It's hard to explain to folks that havent been through it but it's good to know that there's a lot of us survivors out there and we aren't alone. I never married the ex but he was pushing for it and it was my refusal that brought out the worst.

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Waffle Time
Hane

[OT] a little: When my daughter was 18, I was away for the weekend (at a Catholic retreat, no less). She went to visit a girlfriend. As she was trying to leave, she had trouble starting her car, so the friend's father came outside to help her. He asked her for a hug, and proceeded to grab her breast. She dealt with it by going home and calling the cops on him. And, yes, the cops took it seriously.[/OT]

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Unsaved Trash

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, and I apologize if it has.

What does he mean by "biblical sense"? How far does "biblical sense" go?

There are a lot of creepy men (and women) who don't consider it cheating unless the deed is done. He can convince everyone around him (and even himself) that he was really cheating since he didn't put his junk you know where.

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Meh
Coconut Flan

I think that's exactly what he was saying. He was trying to allege there is no affair unless the anaconda made entry.

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Wine time!
nokidsmom
I think that's exactly what he was saying. He was trying to allege there is no affair unless the anaconda made entry.

That's what I think too. No PIV so therefore no affair. Which is why the whole thing is rather Bill Clinton-like.

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Howl

Timeline: Quoted from Julie Ann's Setting the Record Straight series @ Spiritual Sounding Board

This helped bring things into focus for me:

In 2007, illicit relationship became sexual...the victim began spending more time in the Phillips home and with the Phillips family. She was considered a close family friend...Phillips employed Victim to write Jonathan Park radio drama scripts with his daughter in an effort to spend more time with her. This was a paid position and provided Doug more opportunities to spend more time with Victim in his home after his children had gone to bed.

In 2009, Victim’s mother caught Doug Phillips and Victim having sexual-based chat sessions in the middle of the night. Doug, his wife, Beall, and Victim’s parents met. This was the first time Doug and Beall and Victim’s parents met together. Doug confessed to having romantic feelings for Victim, but there was no acknowledgement of any sexual impropriety.

In October 2010, Beall Phillips was made aware of the adulterous nature of the relationship when Victim’s mother informed her that Doug and Victim had been kissing.

Summer 2011 Doug told Victim they were soul mates. He told her he loved her and had promised they’d eventually get married and have children together.

In December 2012, Doug’s double life began to unravel when he was caught trying to climb in Victim’s bedroom window...followed by another private meeting between Doug, Beall, and Victim’s parents. They agreed to keep things quiet. BCA elder Bob Sarratt was not notified at that time.

January 2013 Bob Sarratt, Doug and Beall Phillips, Victim, and her family all agreed to keep the sins of Doug Phillips confidential and tell no one.

August 2013 Victim starts talking

October 2013 On October 29, five men confront DP: former Vision Forum associates/staffers Peter Bradrick and Jordan Muela, former Vision Forum assistant Bob Renaud, friend and pastor Joe Morecraft, and Doug’s old college friend Mark Weaver. Beall was present at this confrontation. Doug and Beall were furious that these long-time friends came to confront Doug. Instead of receiving the counsel of his friends, Doug spent time in the meeting trying to claim he did not commit adultery and that he was working through the situation with his local church and Vision Forum Ministries board. His longtime friends just wanted him to make a full confession and own his own sin, along the exact lines of his own email which he sent out back in August 7 entitled, “True Repentance.†Doug refused the counsel of his friends.

The rest is history (or, more accurately, histrionics).

Not confirmed, so for what it's worth:

In addition, someone (from Jens Gems I think, or here) noted that Beall Phillips approached Peacemaker Ministries about the possibility of mediating the "situation." According to these comments, the Peacemeaker process requires absolute public silence from participants in the mediation process. Apparently, Peacemaker declined Beall's request to mediate this situation.

The significance of this is the public silence aspect. From the Spiritual Sounding Board timeline, it is obvious that both Phillips Mere & Pere equally and desperately wanted to keep this scandal quiet, very, very quiet for all of the obvious reasons.

This was no mention of Beall approaching Peacemakers in Julie Ann's time line, but if anyone can corroborate.....

Idle speculation 1: Perhaps in the final meeting where all parties were present for the first time [Victim, her family & Doug and Beall] it became apparent to Victim that Doug was not going to be leaving Beall to begin a new life with her, the dream died, and that is what ultimately led Victim to begin talking.

Idle speculation 2: I can't believe that actual Tab A/Slot B activity did not take place at some point when the two parties are caught having "sexual-based chat sessions in the middle of the night" relatively early on. Sex-based chat (naughty by definition) would be much different than romantic chat (Darling, I miss you & can't wait to see you again!). It just seems that for these folks, actual Tab A/Slot B activity is what defines true adultery -- at least in the biblical sense -- and it therefore cannot be admitted.

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Mary C Doates

I'm tired of the occasional dainty morsel. I want mud-slinging, back-stabbing and major drama, preferably in a courtroom with Doug (Phillips who is a tool) dressed in a fetching orange jumpsuit, accessorized with some shiny handcuffs. DO IT!!!

Oh, and Doug Phillips is a tool.

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FJSharkJump

I think it means he pulled out. There's that OT story that supposedly highlights the sin of spilling your seed. It's used by these cults to argue that even barrier methods of birth control are ungodly or unbiblical. If you, husband, don't spooge your sperm up her sacred hole, you aren't being Biblical. If you, wife, refuse sex and force a man to masterbate to relieve his needs, you aren't being Biblical. Biblical = jizz in the hoohah.

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Wine time!
nokidsmom
I'm tired of the occasional dainty morsel. I want mud-slinging, back-stabbing and major drama, preferably in a courtroom with Doug (Phillips who is a tool) dressed in a fetching orange jumpsuit, accessorized with some shiny handcuffs. DO IT!!!

Oh, and Doug Phillips is a tool.

Yes!

I keep watching these Dougie threads in the hopes that we will finally get to see some big blowout or court drama happen.

Damn those biblical "solutions", let's bring it on!

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gustava

I would like to concur with fuglyexfundy that Hero had at least some degree of agency, as did her parents. To say that does not "blame the victim."

"Free Jinger" was so named (IIRC) because it was thought that Jinger had a spark in her that might lead her to leave her situation. And we've discussed why so many female fundies have not left. While the reasons are complicated for each individual, we are often still bewildered why Jinger and Joy and Josiah and and and stay.

And there is little doubt that DPIAT is a charismatic Svengali, a conman of the highest order. However, and this is big however, if Hero's parents and DPIAT and Beall met to discuss the situation, then Hero must have been aware that her behavior with DPIAT was, at the very least, questionable. I have no doubt that Hero was irrationally in love with DPIAT but she was of legal age and her parents and the Phillilps had met about the situation, so I do find it hard to accept that Hero is completely without agency.

For some reason, I am reminded of the Hedda Nussbaum situation. Even after the death of her "daughter," Nussbaum was supported by women's organizations as she was the victim of psychological and physical abuse by her male companion. She was isolated from family, friends, and work, with her only real adult contact her abuser. However, because the child died as Hedda watched, I considered her to be a participant, though also a victim, and I was troubled that women's groups negated her complicity.

While to some degree, Hero might be similarly psychologically isolated because of her indoctrination into VF and her proximity to DPIAT, she interacted regularly with other people and her family; it was not Stockholm Syndrome, which could be argued with Nussbaun. Hero belongs to a faith that preaches that adultry is evil, sinful, wrong. To have put aside a basic tenet of her faith, for so many years, even given the charm of DPIAT, must have required at the very least a semi-conscious adjustment.

As someone who struggled in the 1960s and 1970s for equal rights for women, with the understanding that with those rights come responsibility, it is difficult for me to abrogate Hero completely from her participation.

Having seen the reception given to fuglyexfundy, I know that what I'm suggesting will not be well-received. But I ask that you take what I'm saying with an open mind; at least consider it. And that you engage with both fuglyexfundie and me in the spirit in which we have come forth.

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NotALoserLikeYou

Even a "normal" teenage girl would be a victim of DPIAT because of his huge advantage of age, life experience, wealth, and power. Factor in Hero being raised in that isolating, small church world, no access to schooling or anyone to provide balanced advice, and oh yeah, being groomed and trained to be a mans slave, she didn't have a chance.

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GenerationCedarchip

With regard to the question of DPIAT being at Darby Sproul's wedding - It is my understanding from some childhood friends that he was and possibly at least some of the family. I didn't ask straight out but I did see some references on Twitter that led me to think he was. It's a locked account so that's really all I feel comfortable sharing. I don't feel bad sharing my own conclusions but I don't want to put up photos or share specific info from locked tweets.

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LurkerOverThePond
...all she wrote...

+1

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Escapefromfundiedom
I would like to concur with fuglyexfundy that Hero had at least some degree of agency, as did her parents. To say that does not "blame the victim."

As someone who struggled in the 1960s and 1970s for equal rights for women, with the understanding that with those rights come responsibility, it is difficult for me to abrogate Hero completely from her participation.

Having seen the reception given to fuglyexfundy, I know that what I'm suggesting will not be well-received. But I ask that you take what I'm saying with an open mind; at least consider it. And that you engage with both fuglyexfundie and me in the spirit in which we have come forth.

This is about how I feel. I know what it's like to be in a cult that f's with your mind and stuff...but at the same time, I know that Hero ran with a set of people who believed in STONING as a punishment for adultery. FFS there was at least part of her that knew that what she was getting into was wrong.

I am not in a very coherent mood this morning, but to me it doesn't ring true - Hero was without doubt a victim of spiritual abuse. But she was also an adult who was raised within a culture that has a very strict and very clear moral compass when it comes to marriage and adultery, maybe she just silenced her inner voice early on when it was just Doug leching at her over instant message and he rationalized her into the rest, but I have a completely absolving a grown woman from all responsibility in an affair (sexual or not).

Again, to me saying so does NOT negate DPiaT's role as an abuser and an all around bad guy, and who knows...from what we're hearing about Beall's behavior, she sounds like she was an abuser too...

Still...Hero made some choices along the way and they did contribute to what happened.

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MamaJunebug

Thoughtful insights about Hero's part/culpability. This story has an offset-personal component to me, but not because (thank God) I was ever part of a clergy scandal.

I know a woman who went through heart-rending, unspeakable violence and violation as a young teen at the hands of family members - those she was supposed to be able to trust. Those are all the details necessary.

The woman searched for years for sanity; for an understanding of what she was responsible for, and what was beyond her control in her life. She needed forgiveness for her own sins and the ability to forgive her violators, needed peace with God - in whom she steadfastly continued to believe in spite of it all - and she knew these things, and worked like a Trojan to find her answers and her peace of mind, body and soul.

Excellent pastoral counselors, and involvement in sane, sound Christian theology eventually helped her find the healing she needed. It wasn't a straight-line recovery. But the last I heard, she was doing great - living in joyousness, mental and behavioral sobriety, putting the past behind her once she came to understand it and assign responsibility accurately.

My point w/r/t Hero? There are two of them. (1) Like the lady mentioned here, Hero has to take responsibility for her part in the adulterous affair, while (2) coming to understand were NOT hers in the years with the rogue anaconda.

This isn't going to be a simple thing. Hero had never really had to develop critical thinking skills (in fact she was discouraged from doing so as a female member of BCA). She'd never had any sort of Law And Gospel explanation of her religion.

But it can be done, and has been (see above).

Reports that Hero now lives on her own, and has chosen a new church, and has legal counsel, give reason for optimism. But I hope with all my heart that her new church is as far from the BCA/NCFIC model as the east is from the west! Yes, she consciously chose to sin for a period, but then it appears that she renounced the sin and also that she began to make changes in her life. If she continues in Christianity, please God may she be in churches that teach Gospel EVERY time they teach Law. May she find excellent psychological counsel - if she wants it.

Yep, she was in the wrong. But she's now attempting to be right, it sounds like. Is her sin equal to Doug's? In my mind, no, it's much less. "To him who much is given, much is required." Doug was given (took) the authority, power and influence that he should have used to the good, but did not.

Guess what I'm saying is, the responsibility is dual, but so must be the proportion of the correction. if that makes any sense.

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Arete

Thank you for widening this conversation, exfuglyfundie and gustava. I admit that after having absorbed the details in JA's timeline over on Spiritual Sounding Board, I have been very torn on exactly where I stand. I can say without equivocation that Doug Phillips is a disgusting, slimy tool who uses people until their purpose is spent. He uses his charisma, his power, and his heretical doctrines to enrich himself while devaluing the worth of one half of the human race to human incubators. My contempt for him and his soul destroying behavior remains firm. Nothing excuses him.

And yet....I cannot accept that Hero is only a victim in this story. In my mind, she is a victimizer as well. There are reasons she did what she did- she was raised in Tool worship, she had the attention of a charismatic leader, there was a horrendous power differential. But as of yet no one is claiming that Doug's attention was against her will or wishes. She participated. She was caught by her parents and continued to participate. The reason labeling her only as a victim is that I feel it not only takes away her agency, but can be used as an example to take away agency from women in general. You fall for a Svengali, you don't have to examine how that happened or think about who you may have hurt. The men who are always trying to control women will say "See! They get involved with the wrong man and then are not accountable for their actions!" We don't accept the excuse that an enlisted soldier is operating under a huge power differential from his charismatic commanding officer, so if the officer says "Torture this man" the soldier is not morally culpable for his part in the act. In fact we insist he or she is responsible for their part in an act of torture, no matter what his commander told him to do.

I know Hero did not torture anyone, but she took care of Beall's children while carrying on a romantic relationship with Beall's husband. Doug broke his vows, but Hero has a moral responsibility to own up to the fact that she knew a relationship with a married man was wrong. It doesn't make Hero any less Doug's victim to admit her actions hurt another woman. It doesn't make her Jezebel. It just makes her someone who hurt another, even if it had no malicious genesis. Doug's action do have a malicious genesis, so acknowledging Hero made some poor choices as an adult woman doesn't get him of the hook for SQUAT in my eyes.

Hero was an adult. She had agency. From my perspective, it's complicated. I think these two choices of she is either Jezebel or as innocent as a newborn lamb is a false dichotomy.

I wish I could better organize my argument, but that is what I have so far.

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debrand
Thank you for widening this conversation, exfuglyfundie and gustava. I admit that after having absorbed the details in JA's timeline over on Spiritual Sounding Board, I have been very torn on exactly where I stand. I can say without equivocation that Doug Phillips is a disgusting, slimy tool who uses people until their purpose is spent. He uses his charisma, his power, and his heretical doctrines to enrich himself while devaluing the worth of one half of the human race to human incubators. My contempt for him and his soul destroying behavior remains firm. Nothing excuses him.

And yet....I cannot accept that Hero is only a victim in this story. In my mind, she is a victimizer as well. There are reasons she did what she did- she was raised in Tool worship, she had the attention of a charismatic leader, there was a horrendous power differential. But as of yet no one is claiming that Doug's attention was against her will or wishes. She participated. She was caught by her parents and continued to participate. The reason labeling her only as a victim is that I feel it not only takes away her agency, but can be used as an example to take away agency from women in general. You fall for a Svengali, you don't have to examine how that happened or think about who you may have hurt. The men who are always trying to control women will say "See! They get involved with the wrong man and then are not accountable for their actions!" We don't accept the excuse that an enlisted soldier is operating under a huge power differential from his charismatic commanding officer, so if the officer says "Torture this man" the soldier is not morally culpable for his part in the act. In fact we insist he or she is responsible for their part in an act of torture, no matter what his commander told him to do.

I know Hero did not torture anyone, but she took care of Beall's children while carrying on a romantic relationship with Beall's husband. Doug broke his vows, but Hero has a moral responsibility to own up to the fact that she knew a relationship with a married man was wrong. It doesn't make Hero any less Doug's victim to admit her actions hurt another woman. It doesn't make her Jezebel. It just makes her someone who hurt another, even if it had no malicious genesis. Doug's action do have a malicious genesis, so acknowledging Hero made some poor choices as an adult woman doesn't get him of the hook for SQUAT in my eyes.

Hero was an adult. She had agency. From my perspective, it's complicated. I think these two choices of she is either Jezebel or as innocent as a newborn lamb is a false dichotomy.

I wish I could better organize my argument, but that is what I have so far.

I was trying to say something similar and yet, I couldn't figure out how to put my rather confused thoughts into words.

I admit, I go back and forth in my own mind as to how much, if any, fault Hero has. Sometimes I think she has no culpability because of her background and other times, I think that she has a little more. That doesn't change the fact that I consider everyone but Doug a victim in this story.

Everytime I think of Beall having to sit and listen to her husband tell a group of people that he had romantic feelings for her young nanny, I feel very sad for her. Did she know what he was going to say before the meeting? I hope so because that would have crushed me if I had been in her position. Doug is a very sick, twisted person.

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Unsaved Trash
when he was caught trying to climb in Victim’s bedroom window
:shock:

This makes me think that not knowing Victim "biblically" had nothing to due with DPIAT's self-control.

I'm just throwing this out there, since for a while we have Victim, her parents, and Beall involved, maybe DPIAT had been proposing and/or negotiating a some kind of secret Sister Wife arrangement.

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FundieWatcher

This is my first post. I have been lurking since November when I learned of the Vision Forum scandal and wanted gossip. :/

I created this account because I wanted to weigh in.

Imo, Beall is a tool as well. She is staying with a narcissistic man. He is not a good role model for her children. She is not putting them first. What Future Do They have now?

This is not Saudi Arabia. And what about this flds women who fled? Less support and even less money than Beall. And much less education. They did it for their kids. Does she really think she will starve while living under a bridge if she leaves Doug? I mean, life is not always easy. You might have to do something difficult. She needs to stop the cycle of abuse. Her sons will grow up believing this is how a man behaves; flying into rages and suing people to keep them quite. She knows better. But she puts her own comfort above the welfare of her children.

HERO had an affair with a married man. Probably the most normal thing these people ever did. She made mistakes but she can move on.

Beall, it is never too late to the right thing.

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mypsychoticself
This is my first post. I have been lurking since November when I learned of the Vision Forum scandal and wanted gossip. :/

I created this account because I wanted to weigh in.

Imo, Beall is a tool as well. She is staying with a narcissistic man. He is not a good role model for her children. She is not putting them first. What Future Do They have now?

This is not Saudi Arabia. And what about this flds women who fled? Less support and even less money than Beall. And much less education. They did it for their kids. Does she really think she will starve while living under a bridge if she leaves Doug? I mean, life is not always easy. You might have to do something difficult. She needs to stop the cycle of abuse. Her sons will grow up believing this is how a man behaves; flying into rages and suing people to keep them quite. She knows better. But she puts her own comfort above the welfare of her children.

HERO had an affair with a married man. Probably the most normal thing these people ever did. She made mistakes but she can move on.

Beall, it is never too late to the right thing.

Just because it's not Saudi Arabia doesn't mean it's easy to leave an abusive relationship (if that's what it is). I swing between feeling bad for her and not.

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FundieWatcher

But my point is, sometimes you have to do something hard. And there is no excuse to allow your kids to be victims too.

But ok, If Beall isn't responsible for not standing up to Doug then neither is HERO then

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Waffle Time
Palimpsest

We are fighting a paper tiger here where Hero is concerned.

While we have not heard from Hero directly, we have heard many second hand accounts of how she has accepted responsibility for her part in this and feels guilt. SSB's source seems reliable about this. Hero is still a victim of Doug, but she accepts her own responsibility. I think that should be respected and acknowledged.

What we haven't heard is that Doug has accepted any real responsibility for his role. What seems to have started Hero talking is Doug's determination to carry on as if nothing happened. And possibly Beall deciding to trash Hero's reputation.

I find it hard to muster up much sympathy for Beal, given SSB's timeline and description of Beall's participation in discussions with Hero's family and angry defenses of Doug against the gang of Five.

I feel the same way about Teri Maxwell. And Hedda Nausbaum (good example.) A victim can become an oppressor and an active collaborator in abuse. It is an explanation and definitely an extenuating circumstance, but it is not an excuse or a get home free card for Beall.

I also think that damn Covenant had a lot to do with this, but that is another post.

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WonderingInWA
We are fighting a paper tiger here where Hero is concerned.

While we have not heard from Hero directly, we have heard many second hand accounts of how she has accepted responsibility for her part in this and feels guilt. SSB's source seems reliable about this. Hero is still a victim of Doug, but she accepts her own responsibility. I think that should be respected and acknowledged.

What we haven't heard is that Doug has accepted any real responsibility for his role. What seems to have started Hero talking is Doug's determination to carry on as if nothing happened. And possibly Beall deciding to trash Hero's reputation.

I find it hard to muster up much sympathy for Beal, given SSB's timeline and description of Beall's participation in discussions with Hero's family and angry defenses of Doug against the gang of Five.

I feel the same way about Teri Maxwell. And Hedda Nausbaum (good example.) A victim can become an oppressor and an active collaborator in abuse. It is an explanation and definitely an extenuating circumstance, but it is not an excuse or a get home free card for Beall.

I also think that damn Covenant had a lot to do with this, but that is another post.

I haven't heard that name in a long time -- good memory, and yes, good example. And yes, I agree with everything you just said.

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