Doug Phillips is a Tool and Vision Forum is Dead - Part 6

[theresa]

To me it's interesting that not one post has come through Patriarch's Wives digest (run by Stacey Mcdonald). It leads me to believe that they aren't allowed through. No posts saying how awful it is or anything. I've been on there for many many years as I used to buy into that whole deal but I don't any longer. You would just think with all those women who go to the film festivals and buy into VF crap that they would be asking questions and making comments.

[formergothardite]

He's not dumb, and the irony is there...

Someday the truth of what all has happened will come out. I think it won't be too long before more stuff becomes public in various ways. It's too bad that some key players won't break their silence. I guess it's just too embarrassing.

I read his FB. He isn't very smart when it comes to debating people. Though I don't blame him since the fundie culture hampers critical thinking skills.

Good for him to use a drama to make himself some money though. Profiting of other people's pain is always a great idea.

[Patsy]

The longer Kim C's Life in a Shoe blog remains archives-free due to "virus issues" the more I am convinced that she deliberately removed all past content to get rid of all references to Vision Forum.

The (current) third post on the front page itself mentions Vision Forum by name, the fact that Perry needs a new job, etc. So I'm not so sure.

[debrand]

[q

ETA: Ineffectual as he is -- I think Nolan is very courageous.

I agree that Nolan is brave and, I would bet, will eventually find his way out this mindset. It might seem to outsiders that just not believing in the theology that Boerne Church(Vision Forum) taught would be enough but he actually has to break through how he has been taught to think and that takes time.

The theology behind Vision Forum is something that a newcomer should understand. Christian Reconstructionism want to create a theocracy in the United States. They don't believe women should vote, hold jobs or attain outside education. Future husbands are sometimes actively chosen by the father but even in cases in which the couple are attracted to one another, permission to court comes from dad. In the wedding ceremony, the young lady is ritually placed under her husband's authority by her father.

Christian Reconstructionists believe in bringing Old Testament laws back. They want stoning for a variety of offenses. Yes, you read that correctly, stoning. Many are confederate apologists and believe that slavery should be legal to pay back debt.

Oddly enough, they do not frown on moderate alcohol consumption which can be confusing to people who are used to dealing with most fundamentalists.

Most of the people we discuss on this thread were/are connected in some way to Vision Forum, Boerne Church or Christian Reconstructionism

Edited to add: I am confused why Nolan is selling the story instead of just creating a blog to tell people what happened. The more I think about it, the more charging money for the salacious story bothers me

[debrand]

How strange it is that Nolan's sister is married to "Mrs. Robinson's" son, yet Nolan is defending Jen of Jen's Gems:

facebook.com/nolan.manteufel/posts/636307033083470?stream_ref=10

WTH is going on with THAT???

So much of this drama involves reading between the lines. Maybe he dislikes his brother's MIl? Or maybe taking down Vision Forum becomes an obsession with the people who were involved with it and they no longer care who they hurt.

I wish that key players would just say what the hell happened. It makes me wonder if there isn't really an investigation and the authorities have ordered some to remain silent but that is just more speculation on my part. It amazes me that a huge ego like Doug Phillips remains silent.

[debrand]

I am sorry you lost your father in Vietnam. That must have been incredibly hard for your mother, you, and your family. I am grateful for your dad's service.

Thank you. I don't mention it often because I have very conflicting feelings about my father that are difficult for other people to understand. It surprises me how much Vision Forum costume dramas offend me. Whether a war is justified or not, at least real soldiers earn the right to put on their uniform. Doug and his associates just wanted to make money off of other people's work.

[Palimpsest]

How strange it is that Nolan's sister is married to "Mrs. Robinson's" son, yet Nolan is defending Jen of Jen's Gems:

facebook.com/nolan.manteufel/posts/636307033083470?stream_ref=10

WTH is going on with THAT???

WTH was roughly my reaction too!

Hypotheses:

- Nolan was one of the innocent young men who was deeply defrauded by a glimpse of Mrs R's knees.

- Nolan believes that Mrs R is indeed a Jezebel who specializes in seducing young men so it's OK if "TW" shames her.

- His outrage and hurt knows no boundaries, he is being attacked by former friends, so anyone who criticizes DP is OK with him.

Oddly enough, his rage seems to be more focused on BRADRICK!'s lack of speaking out than it is on the Tool's sexual hanky-panky. Almost as though he had already processed some of his feelings re. Doug's feet of clay and serving of Mammon. But BRADRICK!'s "cowardice" when the news broke seems to enrage him disproportionally...

[gustava]

I'll try to give an explanation and context a shot -- if I understand your bewilderment. I also don't think I'm very good at it -- and I may be answering the wrong question. Eh, even my explanation will be totally bewildering if you have not had a passing acquaintance with threads Part 1 to 5.

The quotes come from Nolan Manteufel's public Facebook page. Nolan seems to be well connected with VF. His sister is married to "Mrs Robinson's" son. (See previous threads for JensGems weird outing and shaming of Mrs R.)

OTOH, no-one here seems to know much about the Manteufel family. (Speculation only -- the Manteufels were at some point BCA and bolted from the cult.) Nolan is majoring in electrical engineering at a real accredited college. He seems to have found a mission. He is deeply hurt by the demise of VF and seems to see his role as educating the VF masses about DP the Tool's, Scott Brown's and BRADRICK!'s serving both God and Mammon

Nolan seems to know and hate BRADRICK! and former VF interns seem to know him. He is an injured and outraged puppy. He also seems to be stretching beyond VF limitations -- he drinks beer and quotes Chomsky!

Nolan is calling out BRADRICK!, the Tool and Scott Brown. His "calling out" is weird, obscure, and ineffectual but he is a lightening rod for "true believer" VF scions to attack him.

The level of discourse on Nolan's FB is junior high squabbles. Very snarkable but genuinely pathetic -- in the true sense of that word.

To me, it highlights how very disadvantaged these children of the cult will be in life outside it. They are so brainwashed that even when they see a crime and it horrifies them, they cannot report it to secular LE (because LE = Satan).

These boys cannot debate. They just go in circles. They can just sling biblical quotations and grade school insults at each other. They are not "men." VF training has stunted their growth and they seem stuck in early adolescence.

Having said that the level of Nolan's FB discourse is junior high (at best) I don't really see a much better standard of discourse in the comments at Recovering Grace. Or even SSB, although Julie Ann is fighting the good fight there. But then, I don't give a shit about Biblical Principles.

The conditioning seems so deep that many of the faithful are just stuck. Crimes have been committed but they want to talk about "Church Discipline!" :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

ETA: Ineffectual as he is -- I think Nolan is very courageous.

Got it! The missing link for me was that between Manteuful and Mrs. Robinson. Thanks for a good summary of this mess.

[Palimpsest]

I agree that Nolan is brave and, I would bet, will eventually find his way out this mindset. It might seem to outsiders that just not believing in the theology that Boerne Church(Vision Forum) taught would be enough but he actually has to break through how he has been taught to think and that takes time.

The theology behind Vision Forum is something that a newcomer should understand. Christian Reconstructionism want to create a theocracy in the United States. They don't believe women should vote, hold jobs or attain outside education. Future husbands are sometimes actively chosen by the father but even in cases in which the couple are attracted to one another, permission to court comes from dad. In the wedding ceremony, the young lady is ritually placed under her husband's authority by her father.

Christian Reconstructionists believe in bringing Old Testament laws back. They want stoning for a variety of offenses. Yes, you read that correctly, stoning. Many are confederate apologists and believe that slavery should be legal to pay back debt.

Oddly enough, they do not frown on moderate alcohol consumption which can be confusing to people who are used to dealing with most fundamentalists.

Most of the people we discuss on this thread were/are connected in some way to Vision Forum, Boerne Church or Christian Reconstructionism

An excellent synopsis.

It is confusing though, because Vision Forum (both Ministry and Inc.) was designed by Doug to appeal to more than just Christian Reconstructionalists and Calvinists. People who supported VF came from many different Fundamentalist groups, Gothardites, IFB, etc. etc. VF products also reached and appealed to the more Bible- centered Evangelical Churchgoers. The is a huge range within the Evangelical movement from the main-stream Lutherans, Methodists and Presbyterians, et al, to the SBC types which verge on being Fundie without renouncing the outside world as true fundies do. I'm groping for words here so I hope that last made sense!

It really seems that Doug ran BCA with a much more iron fist and far greater restrictions than he did VF. This caused confusion, jealousy, discontent and dissent. Also, worth noting, when Scott Brown got ousted from his former church (Trinity Baptist), his involvement with the loose morals and doctrinal differences with VF (paraphrase) was cited by the Elders in their discipline hearing. VF is practically Fundie-lite to Trinity Baptist!

Edited to add: I am confused why Nolan is selling the story instead of just creating a blog to tell people what happened. The more I think about it, the more charging money for the salacious story bothers me

I don't think he thought it through and didn't realise how incredibly tasteless selling his 11 page opus would seem to others. He seems to think it is clever irony. He doesn't seem to realise how serious all this is, and how cutsie little in jokes don't hack it -- which is an indicator of the general immaturity and stunted intellectual development in VF children and young adults I talked about above.

I'm cutting Nolan a little slack because he seems so naive, but he needs to rethink the decision rather than stubbornly defend it.

I'm assuming that CloakNDagger is either Nolan himself or a friend who can pass on our feedback. Nolan -- selling your stuff is wrong in many ways. It is not funny and you are better than that. It would be mature to reconsider and apologise.

Quick additional thought: What with Knight In Shining Amore and CloakNDagger, I'm expecting the next VF poster here will be Scarlet Pimpernel!

[nausicaa]

Quick additional thought: What with Knight In Shining Amore and CloakNDagger, I'm expecting the next VF poster here will be Scarlet Pimpernel!

Oohhh, The Scarlet Pimpernel. I totally should have used that as my avatar! I love that book.

I doubt any of the VF interns are well read enough to be acquainted with Sir Percy. Plus those books have some sexy times in them, and they were written by a woman (who encouraged women to actively serve in WWI)!

[formergothardite]

CloakNDagger just sent me a message because apparently my last post on this thread really offended his sensibilities. :lol: Bless him. If you don't like what I post, no need to send a private message, you can disagree with me here.

[hoipolloi]

CloakNDagger just sent me a message because apparently my last post on this thread really offended his sensibilities. :lol: Bless him. If you don't like what I post, no need to send a private message, you can disagree with me here.

A PM, eh, instead of posting in the forum? That was KISA's MO - just saying.

:suspicious:

[DomWackTroll]

When Sarah Long Munn told Nolan that people need protection from Doug Phillips, not Peter Bradrick, this was Nolan's response: "Disagree. At least Doug makes people feel good. Doug is the superior."

[Marian the Librarian]

Nolan has addressed us on his FB page:

To the Anonymous persons on FreeJinger.org,

You are correct. My page is filled with posts and comments of a juvenile caliber. The other day one of my roommates laughed, “Everyone’s throwing shit!†Like some of you guys, we have actually watched the comments with popcorn and beer. You have no idea how many trolls are hidden in my comments. Again: juvenile. Good point.

Another good point. Perhaps I should not charge money for my perspective of Peter’s actions. On the other hand, my perspective seems to be unique. Everyone else looks at Pete as a hero. I look at him as an Obscurer of Truth.

Maybe I’ll use the money to take the girl dancing and cover her alcoholic beverages. In the seduction process, Doug bought her drinks with money earned by selling his perspective on things. Then again, maybe I’ll just give her the money. The stress has given her health issues that have resulted in real bills.

At the end of the day, I want there to be a “Separation of Church and Businessâ€. The simple gospel can’t be sold. Which is why Doug de-emphasized, obscured and neglected it. Scott Brown is no better.

You guys see many things clearly. I apologize for frustration created by my confusion. It feels like I’m surrounded by a “Cloud of Obscurers†instead of a “Cloud of Witnessesâ€.

BTW, my sister knitted the knitted hat I’m wearing in my profile pic. And I lost it the other day. So, all those rumors going around …that I’ve had an emotional breakdown, am unstable and demon possessed… that’s the reason. I loved that hat. I can’t sleep without it… poor hat.

[Nutamole]

How strange it is that Nolan's sister is married to "Mrs. Robinson's" son, yet Nolan is defending Jen of Jen's Gems:

facebook.com/nolan.manteufel/posts/636307033083470?stream_ref=10

WTH is going on with THAT???

Hi Nolan! Can we trouble you to answer this question? Either on FB or here is fine. Jen and TW have made some accusations against your sister's MIL which have caused some folks (like me) to doubt them. And when "Sarah" (same as your FB friend, maybe?) defended "Mrs R" in comments, they were very harsh toward her. Are they "Witnesses" or "Obscurers", in your opinion?

[Palimpsest]

Oh, boy. I'm starting to really like Nolan! He reminds me of my youngest nephew -- heart in the right place but a bull in a china shop when it comes to expressing his thoughts. If, as I suspect, he is/was BCA then I again acknowledge his courage. BCA is such a tiny congregation -- he is taking enormous risks and alienating his former "friends." I think he is better off without them, but it must be painful.

He is also thinking critically. I agree with Debrand. Nolan has the intelligence and thoughtfulness to develop way beyond VF/BCA training and I have high hopes for him.

As he is reading here, my comments on his last Facebook post in red. Nolan, I don't shit on other people's Facebook pages. :lol:

Nolan has addressed us on his FB page:

[Nutamole]

Thanks for your reply, Nolan! Maybe you're a voice crying in the wilderness!

"Nolan Manteufel @ Nutamole on FreeJinger.org,

I think Jen and TW do the best with the information fed to them. They are Pawns. Not Obscurers.

You guys underestimate Doug."

(Much, much more good "stuff" on Nolan Manteufel's FB)

No-- I don't think folks here underestimate him. Personally, I think he's still firmly in charge of a smaller, less visible market. (still runs *his* church, right?) (still lives in a nice neighborhood, still making money off VF, right?) And if he doesn't get criminally prosecuted or get the pants sued off him, he'll make a comeback with a new brand and *improved* product.

[Palimpsest]

Here is the full text of Nolan's reply to Nutamole. It is interesting and confirms that Nolan is now separated from his BCA family. So sad, and I hope he has good supports.

But, Nolan, the last thing we do is underestimate the Tool:

I think Jen and TW do the best with the information fed to them. They are Pawns. Not Obscurers.

You guys underestimate Doug.

It helps Doug’s case to (1) spread lies, (2) keep BCA in a state of confusion, (3) divide the girls friends, and (4) ostracize the girl from her friends.

An example of (1)… lies on Jen’s Gems? I don’t know for sure, but that’s my gut.

An example of (2)… false understanding of Predator, Victim, crime and justice.

An example of (3)… if the girl’s friends are divided they will be unable to realize what happened. What did Pastor Gifford say… “It's like the movie Catch Me If You Can.†Wise man. BCA has never had a Shepherd of his caliber.

An example of (4)… my little sister was manipulated into NOT inviting the girl to her wedding.

In an effort to keep me silent, (1) my family has been manipulated against me, (2) lies have been circulated about me, and (3) I’ve been told by Sarah Long Munn I’ll be ashamed of my words because “real men†are working behind the scenes.

Regarding (3)… I hope SLM is who she says she is. I like to take people at face value. I look forward to the day i can eat all these words.

TRUTH, the community around me is filled with men that are weak-minded, inconsiderate and easily manipulated.

TRUTH, everyone around Doug has recently been bluffed into playing their “pity†cards. For example, my older sister is getting married and the invitation list will only include those friendly with Doug. Bewitched.

MEANWHILE, the girl has been bullied and intimidated.

The trial needs to be public.

Mom, if you are not present at the ENTIRE trial, and if I ever have children, you will never meet them. I swear it. If you keep your head in the sand during the trial, you will never meet my children. Generations of Manteufel’s will know about how my mother was bewitched by a False Teacher that lead a child astray.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Maybe I’ll use the money to take the girl dancing and cover her alcoholic beverages. In the seduction process, Doug bought her drinks with money earned by selling his perspective on things. Then again, maybe I’ll just give her the money. The stress has given her health issues that have resulted in real bills.

:o

Sooooooooooo Doug was "seducing" her by getting her drunk?

Awww I hope she is okay and is getting therapy for her issues from Doug treating her the way he did. Being pressured into sexual things from (presumably) your employer, knowing that he is married and finding out will hurt his wife and kids is stressful enough for a secular person, let alone someone who has been bought up being taught about how doing anything sexual before marriage will make you ruined forever and nobody will ever want you. It must be really hard for her, especially now that everyone knows about it, this scandal has bought down Vision Forum and maybe she feels guilty about that because she thought it was doing good, there are probably a lot of people who are judging her, slut shaming her and saying that its all her fault.

[Nutamole]

Hot off the "press":

"Jordan Muela Nolan I thought there was a church trial of Doug Phillips and that duly appointed elders declared him fully repentant and not guilty of adultery? Is that not correct?

3 minutes ago"

What?? Is Jordan being sarcastic or does he really think this? "Duly appointed elders"-- that's funny! Appointed personally by the tool!

[Palimpsest]

And a nasty threat from a true believer on Nolan's FB.

Jordan Muela Nolan Manteufel Why bring all this up now? You know Doug is reading what you're typing and sending it to his lawyer for review.

28 minutes ago · Edited

Jordan, you chump, I'm not sure Doug has many teeth left. If what Nolan is saying is true -- then Doug's legal team will not challenge it. It is not libel if it is TRUE!

[Nutamole]

It is not libel if it is TRUE!

No, of course nut!! It's SLANDER! :o

And the truth is only NUT slander if it is confirmed by 2 or 3 "duly appointed elders" -- who were, of course, duly appointed by the leader to whom the truth pertains.

[DomWackTroll]

Holy crap! Nolan has gone from total incoherence to specifically calling out his own mom!

Nolan, I apologize for calling you a d-bag. I don't know what you are, but you've sure got some balls of steel, boy.

[Marian the Librarian]

The hell with a "church trial." If there was sexual exploitation and abuse of a minor, I want to see it dealt with in civil court. You know, Doug - it's the place where those of us who don't consider ourselves above the law go if we've done something illegal. :evil:

[Palimpsest]

Holy crap! Nolan has gone from total incoherence to specifically calling out his own mom!

Nolan, I apologize for calling you a d-bag. I don't know what you are, but you've sure got some balls of steel, boy.

Agreed. Nolan has found his voice and definitely has balls of steel. I am holding him in the Light. And I mean that.

The "church trial" is utter nonsense.

It is rather amusing that Jordan wants to threaten Nolan with Doug's secular lawyers while saying that Dougie has repented before a church trial!

Hang in there, Nolan.