Doug Phillips is a Tool and Vision Forum is Dead - Part 6

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

I think that it would also be unethical. For all his faults, we don't know his personal situation. Nolan might be brave enough to deal with his family's censor but that doesn't mean that KISA is. Besides, KISA hasn't hurt anyone and there is no reason to hurt him. He can keep his anonymity.

Dang it. You're right, of course. (And it is against the TOS, which I should have realized.). For the record, I was very tired and being very selfish....only thinking about how badly I personally want to know who he is, and not that more people in general would then know too. Stupid. I'm sorry.

For what it's worth, judging by my friend's info, the VF world knows who he is, and he received quite the backlash for his postings here.

[debrand]

Dang it. You're right, of course. (And it is against the TOS, which I should have realized.). For the record, I was very tired and being very selfish....only thinking about how badly I personally want to know who he is, and not that more people in general would then know too. Stupid. I'm sorry.

For what it's worth, judging by my friend's info, the VF world knows who he is, and he received quite the backlash for his postings here.

Don't feel bad about it. I am a shockingly nosey person so I understand wanting your curiosity to be satisfied. Also, I didn't mean to sound handslappy

[hoipolloi]

Re: revealing KISA. No apologies needed. Like Debrand (and you), I'd love to know who he is and what he thinks NOW after the temporary setback fall of Doug Phillips Is A Tool.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Don't feel bad about it. I am a shockingly nosey person so I understand wanting your curiosity to be satisfied. Also, I didn't mean to sound handslappy

Well, thank you, and it's okay....I deserved a little hand slapping ;-)

I am nosy, too. Very. And it's a struggle for me to keep it in check. It's terrible, I'm not a gossiper in the sense of telling things I know, I just really like to know them :-D. It doesn't help in this area that I'm really close to a number of people that are talked about here. I am absolutely dying to know who KISA is, he pissed off a lot of people, and the fact that it should supposedly be "obvious" to me is beyond frustrating.

My friends, and my husband, don't understand why I read here....we call it my fundie gossip mag. Instead of reading a ton of blogs and trying to keep up with everyone, I know it will eventually get posted here. Isn't that awful?

[CloakNDagger]

Sorry for the sidetrack.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

Sorry for the sidetrack.

No, I apologize for asking something wrong of you. I will, however, be terribly jealous if you figure out who he is :-)

[Palimpsest]

I missed KISA's visits in real time but browsed that thread a while ago. I'm not really interested in knowing his identity but I'm extremely curious about how he feels about Doug Phillips today. IIRC, he thought the Tool was the bees knees, totally in love with his wife, and an inspiring leader. Although he conceded that Doug's double entendres were funny he found them quite endearing.

Other than that KISA was rather malicious in his gossip about his friends and colleagues and very patronizing to mere women in his answers here. He deserved getting his rear-end handed to him.

I'm willing to give CND the benefit of the doubt unless he makes a mess on the rug. He hasn't yet. His manner of expressing himself is rather what I expect of most VF young men, but he is not serving up dollops of malicious gossip and seems to have a sense of humor.

To me, he seems to be trying to steer us in the right direction when we stray from what he sees as the true situation. So in that spirit ....

Oddly enough, to the people in the community, I would say that Eston's alliance with Jen strains his credibility, and you are right to believe only what you can verify, but a good deal of what is there from Eston is true. Some stuff isn't 100% accurate, but I suspect that is mostly because of bad or slanted information supplied to him such as stuff related to the "Robinson" story, of which I'm not sure any one person has all of the details correct.

To the bolded -- that was funny! I'm sure people in the community are suspicious of anyone connected to Jen. But are you saying that "TW Eston's" identity is known to people in the community? Do you have any idea who he is? To the rest, he has lost credibility because of all the contradictions in his stories and the malice evident in outing Mrs R's identity, among other things. I personally detest his Patriarchal ideas.

I don't think that the "men in black stuff was all that sinister. You've got a bunch if southerners who like their guns and such and realize that training is good, then this Holyfield guy is helping Doug with his services. A bunch of the young men realized how cool his job might be and were offered an opportunity to go to a training course in how to protect VIPs with the carrot out there that this might lead to future work opportunities. I think that afterwards there were several of them who were a bit disillusioned after the opportunities did not come.

I never saw the men-in-black threatening people, and if they did, of course that is sad and wrong, but I generally think that's been quite overblown.

So you say that Jen is exaggerating the "men in black." Fair enough and good feedback. I think she has exaggerated things and my first reaction to the men in black story was an unladylike snort! The weapons training link did lend credibility to that accusation, however. I will say that if I were a BCA member being chastized or disciplined by Doug and his Security Detail head honcho, I'd prefer them to be unarmed. So some people might find the weapons training more threatening than others.

[debrand]

Is BCA in a dangerous area? How exactly did they believe that the training would be used? Were the guns brought into the church service?

[CloakNDagger]

To the bolded -- that was funny! I'm sure people in the community are suspicious of anyone connected to Jen. But are you saying that "TW Eston's" identity is known to people in the community? Do you have any idea who he is? To the rest, he has lost credibility because of all the contradictions in his stories and the malice evident in outing Mrs R's identity, among other things. I personally detest his Patriarchal ideas.

I have heard speculation on his identity, but for all I know that might be from people reading here. :lol: I almost don't care because it is good that someone is doing research, however biased he may be. I can't say I blame him if he is fed bad information at times that seems credible.

I don't think that the "men in black stuff was all that sinister. You've got a bunch if southerners who like their guns and such and realize that training is good, then this Holyfield guy is helping Doug with his services. A bunch of the young men realized how cool his job might be and were offered an opportunity to go to a training course in how to protect VIPs with the carrot out there that this might lead to future work opportunities. I think that afterwards there were several of them who were a bit disillusioned after the opportunities did not come.

I never saw the men-in-black threatening people, and if they did, of course that is sad and wrong, but I generally think that's been quite overblown.

So you say that Jen is exaggerating the "men in black." Fair enough and good feedback. I think she has exaggerated things and my first reaction to the men in black story was an unladylike snort! The weapons training link did lend credibility to that accusation, however. I will say that if I were a BCA member being chastized or disciplined by Doug and his Security Detail head honcho, I'd prefer them to be unarmed. So some people might find the weapons training more threatening than others.

I don't know for SURE that the men in black stuff didn't happen, but if it did, she needs to name who they were and tell us real names.

I don't think many of us are too concerned about weapons. An armed society can be a polite society and many, many folks are armed including women. It used to be sort of a joke that if there was a bad guy that tried to do something, we'd have to decide which side would duck while one side fired a volley. Also, one might take the impression from what I said that it is a group of red neck gun lovers. That might be true in some cases, but probably not the majority. It's a lot more accepted down here as normal than in other parts of the country.

[CloakNDagger]

Is BCA in a dangerous area? How exactly did they believe that the training would be used? Were the guns brought into the church service?

I think Holyfield's outfit provided services to a number of VIP types - pretty sure he was Roy Moore's bodyguard at one point, so I'm sure some of the "first brigade" types had visions of similar opportunities to serve,

[Nobodysdoormat]

The thought of the men in black makes me want to gag! Sexist bullies with guns protecting their cult leader yippee !

[CloakNDagger]

The thought of the men in black makes me want to gag! Sexist bullies with guns protecting their cult leader yippee !

Yeah, but you get a bunch of people who have been misunderstood and feel ostracized in other places, and then they come to a place where they are "accepted," "loved," and where their decisions are reenforced as not only acceptable, but the only acceptable way to live, and you have a very powerful formula for even smart people becoming quite gullible. Doug was a master at that, and he learned well from the time he met Bill Clinton. I remember him telling us how he remembered the time he met Clinton and Doug had certainly taken notes on what things made people appreciate him. Funny that his resignation statements sound so much like Clinton as well!

[snarkopolis]

RE: silence by the flock. They might be silent because IF they were complicit in something illegal, like not reporting a crime against a minor or some other tomfoolery then the law has a word for that behavior--CONSPIRACY. Accomplice liability is another phrase that comes to mind. If Doug Phillips (is a Tool) actually took a class or two he might be using this to browbeat, convince, coerce his "fellow Christians" into silence by convincing them that they will also be charged with something, or their organization sued at some point. Food for thought.

[Arete]

RE: silence by the flock. They might be silent because IF they were complicit in something illegal, like not reporting a crime against a minor or some other tomfoolery then the law has a word for that behavior--CONSPIRACY. Accomplice liability is another phrase that comes to mind. If Doug Phillips (is a Tool) actually took a class or two he might be using this to browbeat, convince, coerce his "fellow Christians" into silence by convincing them that they will also be charged with something, or their organization sued at some point. Food for thought.

I agree that DP is a T could indeed be coercing people that way, but I am not willing to let ANY of these manly men off the hook for that. Men who will supposedly go to the wall to secure their rights to conceal and carry arms (all for protection, of course), but cannot or will not "lay down their lives" to go to the police and get justice for their victimized young women. They are disillusioned? Cry me a fucking river. They will not owe up to the consequences of their actions? Ditto. All that smack talk about being able to die for Christ or lay down their lives for the women and the first chance they get to not die, but show that physical and spiritual abuse will not be tolerated, and they can't seem to understand they have an obligation to face the consequences and help the victims.

Pitiful.

[Patsy]

I agree that DP is a T could indeed be coercing people that way, but I am not willing to let ANY of these manly men off the hook for that. Men who will supposedly go to the wall to secure their rights to conceal and carry arms (all for protection, of course), but cannot or will not "lay down their lives" to go to the police and get justice for their victimized young women. They are disillusioned? Cry me a fucking river. They will not owe up to the consequences of their actions? Ditto. All that smack talk about being able to die for Christ or lay down their lives for the women and the first chance they get to not die, but show that physical and spiritual abuse will not be tolerated, and they can't seem to understand they have an obligation to face the consequences and help the victims.

Pitiful.

[RosyDaisy]

CnD, thank you for coming forward. I hope one day you are able to reveal what you know without fear.

[RosyDaisy]

I think Holyfield's outfit provided services to a number of VIP types - pretty sure he was Roy Moore's bodyguard at one point

Roy Moore? Would this be judge Roy Moore from Alabama? I've heard that he has connections to VF and/or IBLP.

[debrand]

I agree that DP is a T could indeed be coercing people that way, but I am not willing to let ANY of these manly men off the hook for that. Men who will supposedly go to the wall to secure their rights to conceal and carry arms (all for protection, of course), but cannot or will not "lay down their lives" to go to the police and get justice for their victimized young women. They are disillusioned? Cry me a fucking river. They will not owe up to the consequences of their actions? Ditto. All that smack talk about being able to die for Christ or lay down their lives for the women and the first chance they get to not die, but show that physical and spiritual abuse will not be tolerated, and they can't seem to understand they have an obligation to face the consequences and help the victims.

Pitiful.

A -freaking -men.

That is how chivalry has always worked so I am not certain why the people at BCA would have thought that their version would be different. Of course, people will come up with reasons why women need special protection by men and the reasons will end up being that women are somehow less than men. They give lip service to men and women being different but the reality is that those differences in their minds make women less equal than men. If one half of the population is less rational than the other half, how can they be equal? And if they aren't equal, their thoughts, dreams and feelings won't matter. We see this on blogs were the woman writer brags about how she puts her husband's feelings and need for respect above her own and almost seems overjoyed when he ignores her needs. In exchange, he is supposed to protect her because she has proved herself worthy by being submissive and grateful enough. Yet, that doesn't happen. Most men in these groups do not step outside of their comfort zone for the women. In this case, they won't even facethe possibility public censure for an innocent victim.

[CloakNDagger]

I agree that DP is a T could indeed be coercing people that way, but I am not willing to let ANY of these manly men off the hook for that. Men who will supposedly go to the wall to secure their rights to conceal and carry arms (all for protection, of course), but cannot or will not "lay down their lives" to go to the police and get justice for their victimized young women. They are disillusioned? Cry me a fucking river. They will not owe up to the consequences of their actions? Ditto. All that smack talk about being able to die for Christ or lay down their lives for the women and the first chance they get to not die, but show that physical and spiritual abuse will not be tolerated, and they can't seem to understand they have an obligation to face the consequences and help the victims.

Pitiful.

Although it certainly may have or be happening, I actually don't think he needs to coerce people right now. They've already been trained for the mindset, and only when they realize that some of their pet doctrines are actually doctrines of devils, will they break free.

The thing people have to realize is that when Doug made the statement on the VFM website about his sin:

Let me be clear: it absolutely does merit my resignation. My resignation is sincere and necessary given the weightiness of my sin. Some reading the words of my resignation have questioned if there was an inappropriate physical component with an unmarried woman. There was, and it was intermittent over a period of years. The local church, not the Internet, is the proper forum for overseeing the details of a man's repentance, but I just want to be clear for the sake of peace within the Body of Christ, that the tragic events we are experiencing, including the closing of Vision Forum Ministries are my fault, and that I am sincere that I should not be in leadership, but must spend this season of my life quietly walking a path of proven repentance.

Even in this statement he's basically continuing to control the opinions of the flock. So it was "intermittent" over a period of years certainly makes it sound like it was less of a continuing sin problem and then he really sticks it to anyone who might start digging deeper by his statement specifically teaching that "the local church, not the internet" is the proper forum for "overseeing the details." So I call hypocrisy on that. He's been using the internet and his websites for years to promote himself and spread his messages about "weeds in the church" like Gossip, and to promote this self righteous attitude through the NCFIC and other venues that we are the elite, etc... and then when other people want to question the accuracy of his teachings and statements on the internet, suddenly that is NOT the place for accountability. I'm sorry, but the magnitude of the crime and the spread of the poison requires an equal or greater surgery, which in this case, means that the internet is just a tool.

[Maxwell]

To any of you BCA/VF folks reading here, I love to get your take on this article:

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/03/ ... matthew-18

My guess is that you could swap the name Doug for Bill and it would match exactly what has been done to the BCA/VF folks.

[CloakNDagger]

To any of you BCA/VF folks reading here, I love to get your take on this article:

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/03/ ... matthew-18

My guess is that you could swap the name Doug for Bill and it would match exactly what has been done to the BCA/VF folks.

Looks like a pretty good analysis of the Gothard stuff. I wouldn't say it's a 1 for 1 with the BCA version, which didn't do stuff like , but it has the same effect.

BCA's church discipline stuff seemed more made up. I don't know if I've ever seen anything actually written down that would be a way of documenting a consistent process or outline that could be subjected to critical analysis and Scriptural cross-examination.

[hoipolloi]

Roy Moore? Would this be judge Roy Moore from Alabama? I've heard that he has connections to VF and/or IBLP.

The very one and the same. Doug Phillips Is A Tool idolized him and his effing 10 Commandments monument.

Roy Moore -- and his lovely wife -- were featured regularly & prominently in the temporarily mothballed now-defunct Doug's Blog.

[Nobodysdoormat]

Yeah, but you get a bunch of people who have been misunderstood and feel ostracized in other places, and then they come to a place where they are "accepted," "loved," and where their decisions are reenforced as not only acceptable, but the only acceptable way to live, and you have a very powerful formula for even smart people becoming quite gullible. Doug was a master at that, and he learned well from the time he met Bill Clinton. I remember him telling us how he remembered the time he met Clinton and Doug had certainly taken notes on what things made people appreciate him. Funny that his resignation statements sound so much like Clinton as well!

Very nice analysis!

[Palimpsest]

Looks like a pretty good analysis of the Gothard stuff. I wouldn't say it's a 1 for 1 with the BCA version, which didn't do stuff like , but it has the same effect.

BCA's church discipline stuff seemed more made up. I don't know if I've ever seen anything actually written down that would be a way of documenting a consistent process or outline that could be subjected to critical analysis and Scriptural cross-examination.

One of the big differences between ILBP/ATI and BCA is the longevity of the organizations although there is a similarity in the rules and practices. Much of the codification and documentation of ILBP practices was done in response to a series of scandals over the years. It was a (failed) attempt to increase accountability.

BCA is a much newer church as Doug established it in the mid-late 90s. There is a great advantage to NOT having written processes because you can make rules up as you go along. You can also gaslight people more easily.

I'd love to get my hands on a copy of the BCA Covenant that people are made to sign.

[thoughtful]

I agree that DP is a T could indeed be coercing people that way, but I am not willing to let ANY of these manly men off the hook for that. Men who will supposedly go to the wall to secure their rights to conceal and carry arms (all for protection, of course), but cannot or will not "lay down their lives" to go to the police and get justice for their victimized young women. They are disillusioned? Cry me a fucking river. They will not owe up to the consequences of their actions? Ditto. All that smack talk about being able to die for Christ or lay down their lives for the women and the first chance they get to not die, but show that physical and spiritual abuse will not be tolerated, and they can't seem to understand they have an obligation to face the consequences and help the victims.

Pitiful.

:clap: :clap:

In other words: