Bates Wedding Part 2: Zach N Whitney

[RosyDaisy]

Orthodox Christian brides are also not "given away". Still, the transfer of authority in ATI/VF/Quiverfull weddings goes way beyond the "who gives this woman to be married to this man?" that you would hear at mainline Protestant weddings. In the transfer of authority, they actually talk about the bride being "transferred to her huband's authority", not given away, and a lot of them spell out what this transfer means. It really is and ownership switch.

Kind of like the selling of a slave from one master to another. Basically that's what women are considered in fundieland.

[FrancineFishpaw]

Not their first kiss is my speculation. Probably not their first "time" either. Just my opinion.

[actuallyjessica]

Not their first kiss is my speculation. Probably not their first "time" either. Just my opinion.

they're both consenting adults and if that's the decision that they both made - well, good on 'em. it's not like they have to say "mom, dad, i wanna have sex with whitney/zach, am i allowed?" although, i'm sure fundy parents would want them to do that, so they could talk them out of it... it's a control matter.

i could see gil and kelly saying to zach that if that is the choice he and his heart are happy with, then do it.

if it were the duggars on the other hand, i think JB would be duct-taping himself to the j'adult.

[anjulibai]

I hope they wait a while to have kids. At least a year. I kind of expect an announcement from Cage and Erin any day now, but hopefully Zach and Whit spend some time enjoying each other before jumping into parenthood.

[BullyJBG]

At my wedding 13 years ago, we had a "parental blessing" where the pastor asked both sets of parents "will you give your blessing to this marriage" and they all answer "we do". The same with a lot of my cousins' weddings; I am of Mennonite origin. The weddings I've been to in the Baptist church I now attend, it's as some of you said "who gives this woman" and the father of the bride says "her mother and I do". I can't find anywhere in the Bible where the woman is being "transferred authority". Just, the verse in Genesis 1 that says "for a man will leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife", which Jesus reinforced in the Gospels when being asked about divorce. Culture was different then, though.

[formergothardite]

they're both consenting adults and if that's the decision that they both made - well, good on 'em. it's not like they have to say "mom, dad, i wanna have sex with whitney/zach, am i allowed?" although, i'm sure fundy parents would want them to do that, so they could talk them out of it... it's a control matter.

i could see gil and kelly saying to zach that if that is the choice he and his heart are happy with, then do it.

if it were the duggars on the other hand, i think JB would be duct-taping himself to the j'adult.

Sex before marriage is like a horrible, horrible sin in ATI. I don't see them saying this at all. People forget that Gil Bates is on the board of directors of ATI, his beliefs are just as bad and as controlling as Jim Bob's.

[actuallyjessica]

Sex before marriage is like a horrible, horrible sin in ATI. I don't see them saying this at all. People forget that Gil Bates is on the board of directors of ATI, his beliefs are just as bad and as controlling as Jim Bob's.

i meant privately. not have them as walking advertisment for sex before marriage. to me, it seems like kelly is an understanding mother who considers her childrens happiness before making a decision. besides, even if a fundy adult did go to their parents for moral support, and they were refused... it's not like it would stop the fundy adult from making the ultimate decision and keeping quiet.

[scc12]

I think Whitney is a strong young woman and they've already shown they had the wedding they wanted.While they might make a few concessions for the Bates,I don't see she and Zach following a perfect fundie path.jmo though.

[formergothardite]

The thing is, in the ATI world there is no happiness to be found in sex before marriage so if she considered her children's happiness she would say absolutely not. It would just bring pain and problems. You aren't even supposed to think about having sex before marriage. I can see them heaping loads of shame onto Zach just for kissing before marriage. They might try and cover it up if Zach and Whitney were having sex but hell no they wouldn't support it. It is a huge sin that is supposed to ruin marriages.

Gil and Kelly are ATI through and through, they just are better at making it look like they aren't.

[nokidsmom]

From the looks of it all,this is the wedding Whitney and her parents wanted,and yes,Zach too.Right down to the wedding attire,and the reception at a fairly mod place.I doubt there was any alchohol,but I wonder if there was any dancing?

The Bates don't appear to have had much control over it,probably much to their chagrin.Well tough luck and too bad.They can't control everything their offspring do,and I think they are finding that out now.If they haven't had their beliefs and ideals called into question by close family members by now,then it's about time.I think it would be good for them.

It does look like Whitney had the wedding she wanted, but since her parents would be paying for it, as would be typical, Gil and Kelly wouldn't have the input / control that they had on Erin's. No doubt there was participation in wedding prep from Zach's side of the family but the decisions on venues, decorations, officiant, etc. would be Whitney's / Zach's and her parents which seemed to be the case. All looked very nicely done.

[scc12]

The thing is, in the ATI world there is no happiness to be found in sex before marriage so if she considered her children's happiness she would say absolutely not. It would just bring pain and problems. You aren't even supposed to think about having sex before marriage. I can see them heaping loads of shame onto Zach just for kissing before marriage. They might try and cover it up if Zach and Whitney were having sex but hell no they wouldn't support it. It is a huge sin that is supposed to ruin marriages.

Gil and Kelly are ATI through and through, they just are better at making it look like they aren't.

ITA on that.some have even said that the Bates are more toxic than the Duggars,since they come across as being more kind.(not that I think the Duggars are).

My own mom got ticked at me when me and hub eloped and we spent ONE night (the night prior to our marriage) alone.These things are just silly.

[nokidsmom]

ITA on that.some have even said that the Bates are more toxic than the Duggars,since they come across as being more kind.(not that I think the Duggars are).

My own mom got ticked at me when me and hub eloped and we spent ONE night (the night prior to our marriage) alone.These things are just silly.

Agree that Gil and Kelly put a better face on things compared to the Duggars and manage to look downright harmless in many ways. I bet if flies on walls could talk, I suspect their reports on what really goes on under both familys' roofs would be very similar.

My mom got really bothered over the fact that my mid-30s adult sister and her husband were going to spend a night together after their legal wedding but before their church wedding. Now that was really silly.

[nolongerIFBx]

Not their first kiss is my speculation. Probably not their first "time" either. Just my opinion.

Even of Christians who drink, dance, use other versions than the KJV, let women wear pants, let both sexes go to secular colleges, allow hand-holding and kissing before marriage or even engagment, etc., many believe that premarital sex is wrong. Very much doubt they went beyond "anything not covered by a swimsuit" touching if even that much. If Whit has converted to ATI, she was especially likely to find a first kiss at the altar romantic and want that.

[carebear]

Is there pictures of the reception?

[beautyandthefish]

Is there pictures of the reception?

On one of those Bates fan pages on facebook there are pictures of the reception. I would link it here, but I'm new and I have no clue how to break a link. It actually looked pretty nice and decorated, not just bland.

[tropaka]

Even of Christians who drink, dance, use other versions than the KJV, let women wear pants, let both sexes go to secular colleges, allow hand-holding and kissing before marriage or even engagment, etc., many believe that premarital sex is wrong. Very much doubt they went beyond "anything not covered by a swimsuit" touching if even that much. If Whit has converted to ATI, she was especially likely to find a first kiss at the altar romantic and want that.

And there are many Christians who cross their fingers behind their back and engage in premarital sex or who are "technical virgins" when they marry.

[ljohnson2006]

So what if they kissed before their wedding day? They're consenting adults, and don't have to follow their cult's rules if they choose not to. This whole not being able to kiss before marriage is stupid.

[nokidsmom]

And there are many Christians who cross their fingers behind their back and engage in premarital sex or who are "technical virgins" when they marry.

Trust me there were many of these Christians at the evangelical Christian college I attended. The most vocal ones were the ones most likely. Really.

ETA: My bible toting, seminary student ex-bf / fiance put major pressure on me to do the deed. Out of all my bfs before Mr. No, he was the one who pressured me the most.

[formergothardite]

ITA on that.some have even said that the Bates are more toxic than the Duggars,since they come across as being more kind.(not that I think the Duggars are).

My own mom got ticked at me when me and hub eloped and we spent ONE night (the night prior to our marriage) alone.These things are just silly.

My mother cried for like a month when she found out that one of my siblings had spent the night with his girlfriend. People who think that Gil and Kelly would not flip the fuck out over even the mention of premarital sex do not realize what a big deal it is in fundie land. My mother would be upset if she discovered now that I had had sex before I got married. As far as she is concerned I was a virgin and to avoid the drama I make sure it stays that way.

[formergothardite]

So what if they kissed before their wedding day? They're consenting adults, and don't have to follow their cult's rules if they choose not to. This whole not being able to kiss before marriage is stupid.

ITA, but for so many fundies they make it into a huge deal because you are only supposed to have kissed your spouse and if you kiss before marriage you run the risk of something happening, the wedding being called off and then you will have kissed someone you didn't marry. It makes no sense to the rest of the world.

[Ellimenopy]

Even of Christians who drink, dance, use other versions than the KJV, let women wear pants, let both sexes go to secular colleges, allow hand-holding and kissing before marriage or even engagment, etc., many believe that premarital sex is wrong. Very much doubt they went beyond "anything not covered by a swimsuit" touching if even that much. If Whit has converted to ATI, she was especially likely to find a first kiss at the altar romantic and want that.

Yeah, I can see some "making out" going on, for very tame definitions of making out, but no premarital sex even from Zach and Whitney. If her dad is a Baptist minister, she will likely still see this as very wrong. I do have hope that they will delay the kids, though. I can't imagine that Zach will be eager to start on his brood after being the oldest of that lot.

[nellautumngirl]

bates-family-photos.tumblr.com/

The photos are also there.

beautyandthefish, normally if you link to a fundie blog or something similar, you just remove the "http" or "www" in front of the link, we do that so that freejinger doesn't show up if they look at their traffic.

If it's a news site or something unrelated to fundies, you can post the whole link.

[tropaka]

Yeah, I can see some "making out" going on, for very tame definitions of making out, but no premarital sex even from Zach and Whitney. If her dad is a Baptist minister, she will likely still see this as very wrong. I do have hope that they will delay the kids, though. I can't imagine that Zach will be eager to start on his brood after being the oldest of that lot.

Of all the kids I went to high school with, the PK's were often the most wild. I imagine that, given the constraints/chaperoning that goes on in this set, it would be hard to get away after the courtship was announced, but it wouldn't be impossible (one can always bribe a chaperone, too ;) )

[ILoveJellybeans]

I don't think it matters whether they decided not to kiss before marriage or had already done pretty much everything-I don't even want to speculate because theres no judgement at all involved and its something that shouldn't matter. As long as that was their choice and not down to pressure from their parents/church/friends/society. They are clearly a very happy couple, who met the natural way too :)

[Closed Womb]

Of all the kids I went to high school with, the PK's were often the most wild. I imagine that, given the constraints/chaperoning that goes on in this set, it would be hard to get away after the courtship was announced, but it wouldn't be impossible (one can always bribe a chaperone, too ;) )

My brother married the daughter of a Baptist minister. They lived together before they got married, he went on family vacations with them and shared a room with her. Her parents made their opinion known exactly once and told her she was a grown up that could do whatever she wanted. They were (are) so welcoming to my brother that I am shocked he did not take their last name when they got married, he really IS part of their family now, way more than his birth family.

In short, being a Baptist Minister is not shorthand for hateful, or small minded, or domineering, or any of the other qualities that are sometimes blanketly attributed to them.

eta: not that anyone was saying those things about Whit's dad, just more of a general comment on how having minister parents or a strict church going, Bible believing upbringing doesn't mean you have oppressive parents or no ability to make your own decisions.