Who's Responsible for the Possible Gov't Shutdown?

[Mecca]

Yep! You're right!! I'm a total uneducated jackass piece of crap.

Awesome! We finally agree on something.

[Curious]

Is that what that was?! Oooh!

I thought going off topic and asking fashion related questions in random threads was just the "in" thing to do.

Back to everyone complaining about not receiving their government handouts and being upset that republicans don't want to be forced to give up the cash they actually earned in order to steer this country towards communism.

I guess I should have posted my question under "worldly distractions!"

Oddly, enough I don't consider my husband's PAYCHECK for which he has WORKED 40 hours a week for the last 25 years a govt handout. Go figure.

Also, it should go in AYTFJ, not WD.

[HomegirlRuby]

Awesome! We finally agree on something.

Awwee - so no coffee date this weekend? Bummer!!

xo

[aelar]

She is also making the assumption that aelar is Caucasian. I don't know anything about aelar's ethnic background.

To be fair, in that rambling list of reasons I made about why -I- happen to be personally successful, one of those reasons was 'white privilege'. My mom is Euro-American, my father is Mexican-American, but while I get mistaken a lot as something Semitic, I generally read 'white' enough that I have to assume that I have had advantages in life that people who are more visibly a minority do not, and that has made a contribution to my personal success. (I have no way of knowing how much I lost out on by having a Mexican last name, though I also assume that I missed some opportunities there, especially during job searches.)

But by no means did I mean to imply that only white people have luck! And certainly not that only white people can be successful. I would assume that anyone who is successful in life will be able to point to many factors both inside and outside their control that have led to that success, and those factors will be different for everyone, because there's no one formula for success, certainly not any so simplistic as 'work hard'. But good luck is always involved too.

By repeating luck so often I was trying to emphasize how much of success in life is due to intangibles that we can't control. I was thinking about things like: Taking one section of a creative writing course, and not a different one, and meeting a teacher who would become a mentor. A friend mentioning an internship that got me into my current career. Losing my job when I had enough money to console myself with a cross-country train trip where I met my husband. Being able to buy a house in the perfect area, that normally we would never have been able to afford, because the tenants were so horrible, it had scared away all the other potential buyers. Managing to avoid getting seriously ill or injured during the many years I didn't have health insurance, which would have gutted my savings that I later used to put myself through school. Etc. etc. etc.

Nothing to do with race at all.

[Curious]

As someone that was disabled at the age of 29, due at least in part to lack of insurance and then went the following 9 years with essentially no medical care while in chronic pain, I can emphatically state that NO ONE should have to live without insurance/health care.

If you have been lucky enough not to have something catastrophic happen to you, then you indeed have LUCK because I assure you, it was not my plan to be disabled and unable to work at the relatively young age of 29. I also had no plans to be in chronic pain for the rest of my life, which would probably be quite a few years given the age at which I was disabled.

I am fortunate now, thanks to my husband's job with the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to have health insurance and proper health care. I have a marvelous pain dr and routine health care, for which I am beyond thankful.

For the record, I was working when I was disabled, but my employer did not provide insurance (I was the only employee) and I could not afford insurance on my own.

The Tea Party needs to get a better plan than holding America hostage over a law that has already passed through proper channels and the upcoming debt ceiling. The only people "tanking the economy" are the Republicans. George Bush tanked it the first time and if it tanks again, the fault is squarely on the shoulders of the "Party of No," who are being obstructionist just because they can be.

My husband has done his job for 25 freaking years. Wanting to go to work at that job and be paid for it, is not unreasonable. We have bills to pay and as already mentioned, I am unable to work. That means we rely on his income. I don't appreciate it being fucked with so some politicians can "get something out of this" when they don't even fucking know what they want. This is our lives, ffs.

[formergothardite]

So Ruby, what is your solution to the health care problem in America? What is your solution for the working(or those who for various reasons aren't working)who cannot afford health care? Do they just die?

Please don't say church and private charities because then I will have to point you to all the threads with Jericho where it was pointed out that that solution has never, ever in the history of our country actually worked.

If your solution is to just let people suffer and die then we will know where you stand. If you have another WORKABLE solution then I would love to hear it.

[Ruby Slippers]

Would our Republican peers here like to comment on the rather glaring, uncomfortable similarities between Obamacare and the 1993 Republican health access bill? The one that Dole campaigned on in 96? The one proposed in 89 by the conservative Heritage Foundation? I would like to understand the vitriol against Obamacare in light of its similarities to the original Heritage-inspired bill of 93.

[Ruby Slippers]

So Ruby, what is your solution to the health care problem in America? What is your solution for the working(or those who for various reasons aren't working)who cannot afford health care? Do they just die?

Please don't say church and private charities because then I will have to point you to all the threads with Jericho where it was pointed out that that solution has never, ever in the history of our country actually worked.

If your solution is to just let people suffer and die then we will know where you stand. If you have another WORKABLE solution then I would love to hear it.

I don't want to put words in ruby's mouth, but generally the answer to this question is "they should have just not been working poor! Choices!" (as if not having access to healthcare is a just punishment for... working). The Republicans campaigned in 2012 on "repealing and replacing" (their words) Obamacare but did not articulate what to replace it with because they had not a clue. If ruby has some idea, then I am sure the R's would love to hear it, since they've got nothing, lol.

[realist51]

The idea of diminishing class systems means that those who work hard will do so in order to support those that don't. Sorry - that certainly doesn't align with my beliefs. I don't go for "handouts" except in very rare and very extreme circumstances. I certainly do not think that the government has any right to control the business I worked hard to build, and I absolutely don't agree that my employees should have a say in how I choose to run my business. Incidentally, the implementation of obamacare means we will be cutting the hours of nearly 1/4 our employees and reducing them to part-time) - not sure how the government expects this "healthcare reform" to help people when many business owners like me will be reducing their work hours, thus slicing their weekly pay. But hey - affordable healthcare!!! right?

It amazes me how willing people are to give up their own power and allow the government to take it. So many liberals say they are about "freedom of choice" - but when Big Government takes over there is no choice.

I think the OP's perspective warrants consideration in terms of discussing how we function as a society. Having grown up solidly middle class and having almost always lived in solidly middle class communities, I always thought that people who were down-and-out were that way because of misfortune. Then I started working in less wealthy communities, and my perspective changed somewhat. There actually ARE people in this world who arrange their lives so they can do the least amount of work possible and reap the most "free" stuff. There are people who do everything they can to present their kids as educationally disabled so the family can live off the child's disability payments. There are scores of children born with cognitive disabilities because of the substance abuse of their mothers. There are scores more of kids born to parents who have no time or resources for them. You think the Duggar kids are neglected? You haven't seen anything. I've seen the most kind-hearted progressive people turn into hardcore conservatives after years of working with people who seem to do little and expect to get a lot. So, I am sympathetic to frustration about THAT situation. Here comes the "however," though. (I don't want to write a book, so, for now, let's forgo the discussion of how Capitalism seems to make little room for those born with fewer cognitive resources.) Refusing to change our current healthcare delivery system because of frustration about "handouts" will/does not change that situation. The federal government is ALREADY paying a LOT to provide poor-quality healthcare to people who don't have insurance. Employers who DO pay for health insurance are ALREADY paying for the people who do not have insurance. The OP says that she doesn't want to pay for people who have not worked for what they get. Well, someone else is paying for what YOU get. When you don't insure your employees, and they get sick, our society doesn't let them die in the street. They go to the hospital, they get treated, and the hospital "writes off" the cost of that treatment. "Writes off" means that they collect the money they need to operate from the people who come in next. You know, the ones who DO have insurance. The people who DO pay to insure their employees are subsidizing YOU and YOUR business. That you, as a business owner, have to even think about this is, in my opinion, unfortunate. Healthcare should not be tied to employment. Unfortunately, divorcing healthcare from employment is politically very difficult. The ACA, though, provides a PATH away from the employment-health insurance link. Once people have some other way to access the healthcare system, employers can bow out, and I think that's what they will do. I don't think that the ACA is the best way to do this; if I were in charge, I would have structured the system differently. But, given the political climate, this is the best we could do. So, OP, I totally understand not wanting to pay people, with my hard-earned dollars, for services they didn't earn. And that is why I want YOU to pay for the services that YOUR employees use.

[Ruby Slippers]

Healthcare should not be tied to employment. .

For the cheap seats.

[HomegirlRuby]

The Republican Study Committee’s American Health Care Reform Act, in short, would be my answer.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[OkToBeTakei]

I think the OP's perspective warrants consideration in terms of discussing how we function as a society. Having grown up solidly middle class and having almost always lived in solidly middle class communities, I always thought that people who were down-and-out were that way because of misfortune. Then I started working in less wealthy communities, and my perspective changed somewhat. There actually ARE people in this world who arrange their lives so they can do the least amount of work possible and reap the most "free" stuff. There are people who do everything they can to present their kids as educationally disabled so the family can live off the child's disability payments. There are scores of children born with cognitive disabilities because of the substance abuse of their mothers. There are scores more of kids born to parents who have no time or resources for them. You think the Duggar kids are neglected? You haven't seen anything. I've seen the most kind-hearted progressive people turn into hardcore conservatives after years of working with people who seem to do little and expect to get a lot. So, I am sympathetic to frustration about THAT situation. Here comes the "however," though. (I don't want to write a book, so, for now, let's forgo the discussion of how Capitalism seems to make little room for those born with fewer cognitive resources.) Refusing to change our current healthcare delivery system because of frustration about "handouts" will/does not change that situation. The federal government is ALREADY paying a LOT to provide poor-quality healthcare to people who don't have insurance. Employers who DO pay for health insurance are ALREADY paying for the people who do not have insurance. The OP says that she doesn't want to pay for people who have not worked for what they get. Well, someone else is paying for what YOU get. When you don't insure your employees, and they get sick, our society doesn't let them die in the street. They go to the hospital, they get treated, and the hospital "writes off" the cost of that treatment. "Writes off" means that they collect the money they need to operate from the people who come in next. You know, the ones who DO have insurance. The people who DO pay to insure their employees are subsidizing YOU and YOUR business. That you, as a business owner, have to even think about this is, in my opinion, unfortunate. Healthcare should not be tied to employment. Unfortunately, divorcing healthcare from employment is politically very difficult. The ACA, though, provides a PATH away from the employment-health insurance link. Once people have some other way to access the healthcare system, employers can bow out, and I think that's what they will do. I don't think that the ACA is the best way to do this; if I were in charge, I would have structured the system differently. But, given the political climate, this is the best we could do. So, OP, I totally understand not wanting to pay people, with my hard-earned dollars, for services they didn't earn. And that is why I want YOU to pay for the services that YOUR employees use.

The Welfare state can attract a minority who do these things BUT please inform me how affordable healthcare is in anyway tied to this?

NHS = Free healthcare for all.

Welfare state = Concept of government in which the state plays a key role in the protection and

promotion of the economic and social well-being of its citizens.

They are entirely two different things.

[realist51]

NHS = Free healthcare for all.

Welfare state = Concept of government in which the state plays a key role in the protection and

promotion of the economic and social well-being of its citizens.

They are entirely two different things.

Yes, that's my point, perhaps poorly made. I'm just trying to acknowledge where the objection to the ACA seems to be coming from. That is, our OP seems to think that it is more government handout. I was trying to say that the government and the insured are already paying for the uninsured. The ACA, among other things, is simply trying to make the paying for the uninsured more universal, more cost effective, and more able to meet health needs before they turn into emergencies.

[OkToBeTakei]

Yes, that's my point, perhaps poorly made. I'm just trying to acknowledge where the objection to the ACA seems to be coming from. That is, our OP seems to think that it is more government handout. I was trying to say that the government and the insured are already paying for the uninsured. The ACA, among other things, is simply trying to make the paying for the uninsured more universal, more cost effective, and more able to meet health needs before they turn into emergencies.

Yes it seems a common misconception that free healthcare is a handout. I totally get where you are coming from the cost of uninsured accessing ER would drain any system.

The OP is not interested in rational argument.

HomegirlRuby wrote

I am a staunch Republican. While I do believe in equal marriage rights, the legalization (or decriminalisation) of marijuana, and consider myself agnostic, that's about where the liberal pow-wow ends for me.

I don't believe in handouts. Im not a fan of people expecting the system to step in and pay for their out-of-wedlock children that they cannot afford. I don't think throwing money we dont have at major issues is going to get us anywhere. I support the second-amendment. I think that people should complain less and work harder.

:lol:

[realist51]

"Im not a fan of people expecting the system to step in and pay for their out-of-wedlock children that they cannot afford. I don't think throwing money we dont have at major issues is going to get us anywhere."

I really can't argue with her here. The social trend in the US does seem to be toward people taking less and less responsibility on a personal level. When individuals fail to take responsibility, someone else does often have to step in and make up the difference. I have spent my work life in the public school system, so I have seen a lot of this first hand. Again, though, I think it's a mistake to conflate frustration over this issue with the health-delivery system issue. If we get hung up on the one, a large problem to be sure, we are unable to rationally solve the other. MANY, MANY, MANY Americans who do take personal responsibility but who got ill, had accidents, or simply work in industries that don't pay that well have no access to healthcare under the current system. Still, as a country, we pay more in tax dollars for that poor system than any other country in the world. So, what's the argument for keeping the system we have?

[HomegirlRuby]

I think someone has a little crush on me! Taking the time to locate, cut, copy, and paste all my old posts? Good thing I am careful about what I post, or I might worry you would show up at my door begging me for a date! xoxo

[OkToBeTakei]

I think someone has a little crush on me! Taking the time to locate, cut, copy, and paste all my old posts? Good thing I am careful about what I post, or I might worry you would show up at my door begging me for a date! xoxo

It's not actually rocket science. Takes about 30 seconds and is fun on a rainy Saturday afternoon to see in your 'careful what you post posts' you have managed to come across as a total idiot in about four threads. That's good going. Very amusing reading also :lol:

Interestingly you have not answered formergothardite's question though. Posting a link to the heavily maligned Republican party's health act which strangely was not part of their 2012 election manifesto and was hastily cobbled together in answer as to why they opposed ACA.

Whilst I may profess to following a particular party it does not prevent me from seeing faults in policy. I find it very strange that a person can trot out a party line without thought because they are a staunch.....anything. Linear thinking.

There again it is easy to deny healthcare to those who have no access to it when you are firmly in the 'I'm alright Jack feck everybody else, let them eat cake eh?'

[PennySycamore]

Man, I wish you could hide rate or troll rate people's posts on here because I'd hide rate Homegirl Ruby's comments, for sure. I guess I just need to block her as I've blocked 4M's and Jericho's comments.

Homegirl Ruby, you are a troll. If you don't want to be considered one, don't freakin' act like one.

[starfish]

Let 'em eat bootstraps, I guess. Unless you are a

banker or an automobile manufacturer. Then there's another, glossier, name for your handout.

You know, with what we spent on the war in Iraq (we went into massive debt to the Chinese for that

rah-rah party) we could have paid for health care insurance for every American and every Iraqi

citizen. Still waiting to hear what we accomplished with that cluster, except GWB got to show

up his old man.

Anyway, coming to the party late but I think the Republicans are responsible for the govt shutdown.

They have no leadership, unless you count Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh. I thought they were

concerned about American business and enterprise, but they are more concerned about their

funny little quips and making sure everyone knows they hate contraception. Not just abortion,

that's a given, but contraception. Yeah, their last "compromise" bill stripped contraception converage

from the ACA. And they say there's no war on women. They have no problems with the ACA as long

as women who engage in premarital sex are punished with a baby. Boehner and McCain lost control

of this group a long time ago.

[Mecca]

Yes, because it makes perfect sense to make an innocent child pay for the "moral" sins of their parent. :roll:

Why is this topic of "freeloading" even being discussed here? It has nothing to with the ACA. Really? People that have pre-exsisting condtions that have never been able to have adequate healthcare is considered freeloading? A person that works 40 plus hours at a job that does not offer benefits is a freeloader? People that will pay premiums is a freeloader? Jesus, how can we have a discussion about a topic that many cannot understand the basic premise of?

And as someone that has spent most of my adult life working with the indigent through healthcare and legal, this whole idea that most in the system are looking for free crap is just false. Sure, there are some people that try to work the system and fall through the cracks, but no system will ever be perfect. Shit, there are people that have millions of dollars that try to work the various systems through loopholes, yet the poor and indigent constantly get the fingers waving in their face. Guess it is just easier for people to blame the poor. :|

[HomegirlRuby]

You're one of those people huge on having the last word rather than continuing your "I'm disabled and can't work but can spend 30 hours a week online" and "amen!" rant with your little friends, aren't ya? I'm going to go ahead and pack my suitcase so we can get ready to shove off for our week in Jamaican paradise. (I have my brother staying at the house while we are gone, so don't get any crazy ideas :wink: ) - while I am busy doing that, why don't you fish up some more of my hysterical quotes and get that "last word" you so badly need. I'll check back before next week. :kiss:

[Savoring Samsara]

I'm going to go ahead and pack my suitcase so we can get ready to shove off for our week in Jamaican paradise. (I have my brother staying at the house while we are gone, so don't get any crazy ideas :wink: )

Holy shit, that was completely uncalled for. The mods here won't ban you just for disagreeing, even loudly, but for that I wish they would.

[formergothardite]

The idea that food, health care and children are only for rich people is kind of horrifying to me.

Can someone explain that Republican health care act to me? Like I tried to read about it but it didn't seem like it would be that helpful in dealing with the problems that are faced by poorer people struggling with health care costs.

[Mecca]

I really need a new lipstick. Reds and oranges don't look so good on me. I don't think I am brave enough to try purples but maybe something kind of pinky-purple? Suggestions?

Since I consider myself a helpful person and believe your original question should be answered, I have a perfect lipstick for you. Trainwreck by Urban Decay. It is a great color, and it fits your personality. Win, win!

[OkToBeTakei]

You're one of those people huge on having the last word rather than continuing your "I'm disabled and can't work but can spend 30 hours a week online" and "amen!" rant with your little friends, aren't ya? I'm going to go ahead and pack my suitcase so we can get ready to shove off for our week in Jamaican paradise. (I have my brother staying at the house while we are gone, so don't get any crazy ideas :wink: ) - while I am busy doing that, why don't you fish up some more of my hysterical quotes and get that "last word" you so badly need. I'll check back before next week. :kiss:

I really hope this creature is a troll. How callous and downright nasty is that statement in view of what Curious shared about her personal circumstance up thread. I concur I wish educationally challenged nasty bigots could be banned, saying that the inability to answer intelligent questions but instead post teenage style smarty comments is quite affirming really, whilst there are indeed such wankers out there, they are not that bright. :)