Chad and Erin

[lorem ipsum]

Girls get coffee. Women run the company. Many of us fought the "I'll ask my girl to bring in coffee." It makes me angry that some of you want to return to the days of making the coffee for the male boss. Language matters!

I'm 32, to put what I am about to say in context. To me, girls vs women it is purely a matter of formality. In my casual personal life, I would say I am going on a "girls' night out" with "the girls". However, in my formal professional life, I would expect to be referred to by my name or described as a woman if absolutely necessary (but outside of filling out an insurance form, I wouldn't expect gender to enter my workplace at all).

I understand that derogatory terms in the workplace were (and to a lesser extent, still can be) a massive battle, and I greatly appreciate the women that fought before me. However, I think it's a bit of a stretch -- and certainly a bit condescending -- to imply that simply thinking "girls' night out" is a bit more informal and relaxed than "women's night out" in my private life means I would find a derogatory term in the workplace acceptable, or that I have some latent desire to return to the "making coffee for the male boss" days.

Yes, language DOES matter -- and it evolves, even over just 1-2 generations. A linguist friend of mine once told me that words describing women frequently evolve from a positive meaning to a negative one (example: "gossip" originated from "godsib" and for some time simply meant a close, specifically female, friend -- but changed to its current derogatory meaning around the 19th century and still has a strong female connotation), and considering that I don't think it's a bad thing that for once a term might be going the opposite way!

[gustava]

I'm 32, to put what I am about to say in context. To me, girls vs women it is purely a matter of formality. In my casual personal life, I would say I am going on a "girls' night out" with "the girls". However, in my formal professional life, I would expect to be referred to by my name or described as a woman if absolutely necessary (but outside of filling out an insurance form, I wouldn't expect gender to enter my workplace at all).

I understand that derogatory terms in the workplace were (and to a lesser extent, still can be) a massive battle, and I greatly appreciate the women that fought before me. However, I think it's a bit of a stretch -- and certainly a bit condescending -- to imply that simply thinking "girls' night out" is a bit more informal and relaxed than "women's night out" in my private life means I would find a derogatory term in the workplace acceptable, or that I have some latent desire to return to the "making coffee for the male boss" days.

Yes, language DOES matter -- and it evolves, even over just 1-2 generations. A linguist friend of mine once told me that words describing women frequently evolve from a positive meaning to a negative one (example: "gossip" originated from "godsib" and for some time simply meant a close, specifically female, friend -- but changed to its current derogatory meaning around the 19th century and still has a strong female connotation), and considering that I don't think it's a bad thing that for once a term might be going the opposite way!

Your distinction between public and private is well-made. However, until women earn as much as men, instead of about 80 cents on the dollar, I'll hold out for being a woman. Interestingly, I just learned this week about the origin of "gossip." Talk about synchronicity!

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm 32, to put what I am about to say in context. To me, girls vs women it is purely a matter of formality. In my casual personal life, I would say I am going on a "girls' night out" with "the girls". However, in my formal professional life, I would expect to be referred to by my name or described as a woman if absolutely necessary (but outside of filling out an insurance form, I wouldn't expect gender to enter my workplace at all).

I understand that derogatory terms in the workplace were (and to a lesser extent, still can be) a massive battle, and I greatly appreciate the women that fought before me. However, I think it's a bit of a stretch -- and certainly a bit condescending -- to imply that simply thinking "girls' night out" is a bit more informal and relaxed than "women's night out" in my private life means I would find a derogatory term in the workplace acceptable, or that I have some latent desire to return to the "making coffee for the male boss" days.

I don't think anyone was referring to common phrases like "girls' night out" or "boys' night out", so that's a bit of a straw man argument. I was specifically addressing the grown women out here - women who say they are pushing 30 years old - who want to be considered girls, including one poster who can't even imagine being a woman when she’s elderly because the term itself denotes all sorts of negative things to her. You'll note she didn't answer as to whether she felt the same way about the word "man".

And therein lies the big question. Why are so many adult females turned off by the word "woman"? Men don't generally infantilize themselves. I've never come across a 30 year old man who wanted to be considered a boy and not a man.

My own suspicion is that this phenomenon is caused by our cultural obsession with youth and the directly related underlying pressure on women to infantilize themselves in order to please men.

I'm sorry to say that sexism is very alive and well, and if you find yourself unable to consider yourself a woman, you may want look a little deeper into why.

[lorem ipsum]

I don't think anyone was referring to common phrases like "girls' night out" or "boys'night out", so that's a bit of a straw man argument. I was specifically addressing the grown women out here - women who say they are pushing 30 years old - who want to be considered girls, including one poster who can't even imagine being a woman when she’s elderly because the term itself denotes all sorts of negative things to her. You'll note she didn't answer as to whether she felt the same way about the word "man".

And therein lies the big question. Why are so many adult females turned off by the word "woman"? Men don't generally infantilize themselves. I've never come across a 30 year old man who wanted to be considered a boy and not a man.

My own suspicion is that this phenomenon is caused by our cultural obsession with youth and the directly related underlying pressure on women to infantilize themselves in order to please men.

I'm sorry to say that sexism is very alive and well, and if you find yourself unable to consider yourself a woman, you may want look a little deeper into why.

I respectfully disagree that it's a straw man argument as I wasn't the one who made the formal/informal contrast, and my response was directly to a comment that only considered the terms *in the context of a workplace* -- so I think it's only fair that both sides of that coin (professional and private) are taken into account, especially if someone argues that adult females should NEVER call themselves girls and that doing so means you want to set feminism back 40 years.

I do know plenty of adult men who refer to themselves as "guys" rather than "men" (and have "boys' nights") -- I wonder why there isn't a correspondingly age neutral term for females?

I'm not sure if you meant you = me or you = general population in your last paragraph. I am not personally turned off by being called a woman, nor do I find it offensive when people describe me that way.

I do agree that there's a problem if a grown woman insists on ALWAYS being referred to as a girl and has accompanying infantalizing behavior, especially if there is significant pressure for her to do so. I just don't think it's a 100% bad term all the time regardless of circumstances. Does that clarification help? :)

[JenniferJuniper]

I respectfully disagree that it's a straw man argument as I wasn't the one who made the formal/informal contrast, and my response was directly to a comment that only considered the terms *in the context of a workplace* -- so I think it's only fair that both sides of that coin (professional and private) are taken into account, especially if someone argues that adult females should NEVER call themselves girls and that doing so means you want to set feminism back 40 years.

I do know plenty of adult men who refer to themselves as "guys" rather than "men" (and have "boys' nights") -- I wonder why there isn't a correspondingly age neutral term for females?

I'm not sure if you meant you = me or you = general population in your last paragraph. I am not personally turned off by being called a woman, nor do I find it offensive when people describe me that way.

I do agree that there's a problem if a grown woman insists on ALWAYS being referred to as a girl and has accompanying infantalizing behavior, especially if there is significant pressure for her to do so. I just don't think it's a 100% bad term all the time regardless of circumstances. Does that clarification help? :)

I do not require any clarification, thanks.

You might want to read the thread in context. And no, I was not referring to you personally. Context again.

And finally, the term "guys" is not the same as the term "boys". Boys are children, guys are not.

[OkToBeTakei]

Girl, woman, chick, lovie, hen (the most common where I love HA.) Lady, madam, ma'am.

Words. I don't waste my time being offended by words, it is the manner in which they are used, in what tone,in what context which gives either the benign pleasant intent or the derogatory.

[JenniferJuniper]

Girl, woman, chick, lovie, hen (the most common where I love HA.) Lady, madam, ma'am.

Words. I don't waste my time being offended by words, it is the manner in which they are used, in what tone,in what context which gives either the benign pleasant intent or the derogatory.

Cool.

We'll do lunch. I'll have my girl call your girl.

[OkToBeTakei]

Cool.

We'll do lunch. I'll have my girl call your girl.

Nae bother hen. I'll get the lady across the street to mind my wee chick :lol:

[No Cure for Stupid]

I didn't respond because, for some reason, I'm no longer getting messages about when threads I'm subscribed to are updated and so I have to scan through threads -- if I remember them -- to find things I've posted.

"Woman" is usually used in as a way of ordering females around from what I've seen, "Woman, get me some coffee" while "girl" is usually used in an affectionate and endearing sense; it doesn't feel like being infantilized to me or many other females. "Man" hasn't had the same connotation since probably the 1950s? or so when it became something like "Hey, man, I got some good stuff for you," but -- yes -- "man" in the context that you're referring to -- does feel formal and cold. I guess I just don't see a point in formality; it just seems silly to me.

I usually don't use either, mostly "girls" and "boys." My male friends don't care if I call them "boys." "Guy(s)" has become something of a gender-neutral in recent times. It doesn't bother me to be called a "girl" or a "guy." I was simply agreeing with most of the people I saw on this thread. A lot of females don't mind being called "girls;" most females -- in my experience, that is -- really don't care.

While we're on the subject, there are some names that are just purely derogatory in nature such as "bitch," "'ho," and the c-word. Those words, I won't abide by being called. People put different feelings in words. If you view being called a "girl" as derogatory, then that's your view, but it doesn't make it mine.

[nelliebelle1197]

I don't think anyone was referring to common phrases like "girls' night out" or "boys' night out", so that's a bit of a straw man argument. I was specifically addressing the grown women out here - women who say they are pushing 30 years old - who want to be considered girls, including one poster who can't even imagine being a woman when she’s elderly because the term itself denotes all sorts of negative things to her. You'll note she didn't answer as to whether she felt the same way about the word "man".

And therein lies the big question. Why are so many adult females turned off by the word "woman"? Men don't generally infantilize themselves. I've never come across a 30 year old man who wanted to be considered a boy and not a man.

My own suspicion is that this phenomenon is caused by our cultural obsession with youth and the directly related underlying pressure on women to infantilize themselves in order to please men.

I'm sorry to say that sexism is very alive and well, and if you find yourself unable to consider yourself a woman, you may want look a little deeper into why.

Amen. I was really troubled by the people on HERE defending the use of "girl". It was some strange logic twisting that seemed heavily influenced by patriarchal traditionalism rather than a feminist paradigm.

Alumna at my all-woman college won a battle against the corporate bookstore which was producing "Agnes Scott Girl" bumper stickers. For adult women to put on their cars. And some adults were buying them and putting them on their cars. The stock was moved to the children's section then discontinued.

[singsingsing]

The straw man argument is this argument about whether or not women should be referred to as 'girls' in a professional setting or by strangers. What was originally being discussed was if it is problematic for people to refer to the adult women in their family as girls. In most contexts, I don't believe that is problematic. If fundies are wrong for doing it, it's because they have motives that the vast majority of people do not.

[RosyDaisy]

In my neck of the woods, gal is used a lot. It is not considered offensive, and means woman or girl regardless of age, race, or reputation. Heck, even I use it, but only when around family and friends. While they and I might not find it offensive, somebody else can. It's definitely not acceptable to use in a professional setting.

[boxerlover24]

Because the fundie fathers are all cray-crazy. Nobody wants to marry a Maxwell or a Duggar. Too much inbreeding, not enogh families. Wizard line is going to die out because they're not willing to marry Muggles.

Love you for HP reference.

[Aurora rising]

Have somebody else read the latest blog-entry of (from?) Chad?

chadsperspective.blogspot.ch/2013/06/it-was-meant-to-beshared.html (I hope I broke the link correctly)

It sounds really strange to me, or is this the normal fundie-i-love-you-talk? :doh:

[Mama Mia]

Girls get coffee. Women run the company. Many of us fought the "I'll ask my girl to bring in coffee." It makes me angry that some of you want to return to the days of making the coffee for the male boss. Language matters!

I'm also 50, and I think it is generational. I know that most people in their 20's ( and beyond ) who I personally know don't care if they are called boys or girls. I just don't think that either of those terms are seen as demeaning by most people anymore. Guys is used more frequently in the generic form than boys, and for mixed gender groups of any age.

And yeah, I think calling an 18 year old male a man is just as unusual as calling an 18 year old female a woman.

eta - in thinking about it, I think "guys" is the most common usage for any group of people, whether male, female, mixed or unknown. But you wouldn't use the singular "guy" for an individual female. Language is interesting.

[jlbturtle]

Reading the comments in the Bates' blog, it looks like they may be planning a wedding this fall or early next year!

[Finduilas]

Am I the only one to find it weird to plan (for?) a wedding before even being engaged ? Erin's already dominating her (future) headship !:p

[nokidsmom]

Love you for HP reference.

Yep, it was a very good way of putting it. :clap:

I don't follow the fundie blogs, preferring to get my highlights here, but am interested in which ones are discussing the lack of courtships. Not surprised that it's happening though.

[Kira]

Yep, it was a very good way of putting it. :clap:

I don't follow the fundie blogs, preferring to get my highlights here, but am interested in which ones are discussing the lack of courtships. Not surprised that it's happening though.

Raising Homemakers had a couple of post about courtship recently. One was written by Kelly Crawford. It was about encouraging your sons to marry godly women.

[Mela99]

Am I the only one to find it weird to plan (for?) a wedding before even being engaged ? Erin's already dominating her (future) headship !:p

I lean towards no, but it depends on what they're planning. If they're already booking halls and shopping for dresses, yeah, that's a little much. But getting ideas and putting some thought in is okay. I planned a timeline for our wedding before we got engaged.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

I lean towards no, but it depends on what they're planning. If they're already booking halls and shopping for dresses, yeah, that's a little much. But getting ideas and putting some thought in is okay. I planned a timeline for our wedding before we got engaged.

I bought my dress a week before we got engagd ;)

[Mrs Ms]

I bought my wedding shoes 7 or 8 years ago - and I still don't know if we are ever actually going to get married :lol:

In my defense, IF I do get married, it won't be in white and the shoes were the perfect shade of the color I would want to wear, in my size and reduced down to about $10.

[Evilbad]

I was referred to as a "Girl" on more than one occasion while deployed in Iraq. It was used as a derogatory term, because they viewed me as lesser. So I don't really appreciate being called a girl. I've never been sneered at and talked to that way, so it really stuck with me.

[FJismyheadship]

When I turned 18 I didn't feel any different. It was weird to me suddenly being called a grown woman because for 18 years I was considered a "girl" I felt kind of caught in the middle. I think some of the fundie women are in the middle.... they are not girls, but they aren't quite women because of the way their society treats them.

[SpeakNow]

I look about ten years younger than I am, so I'm used to being called a girl by people who may not know my age (not by colleagues at work). I suppose it doesn't bother me because I know I look like I'm around 16 years old.