A Vaccine Thread for EllaJac

[Jencendiary]

We'll take out chance with measles, thanks.

I'm totally fine with that, as long as you keep your crotchdroppings out of the public school, out of the public pool, out of the playground, amusement park, library & church of your choice. Stay home with your typhoid mary bayybeees.

edited: due to rage-induced riffling.

[FakePigtails]

And you know what, since it's legal to refuse vaccines just because you (both you within the context of this discussion and a general you) don't like them or whatever, go for the gold. But don't pretend your choice is only affecting your family. It's not. A "bad cough" from you or your child getting pertussis could kill my friend . . . I should stop before I start cussing up a storm but anyway if that's what you're okay with, at least own it.

[Witsec6]

And you know what, since it's legal to refuse vaccines just because you (both you within the context of this discussion and a general you) don't like them or whatever, go for the gold. But don't pretend your choice is only affecting your family. It's not. A "bad cough" from you or your child getting pertussis could kill my friend . . . I should stop before I start cussing up a storm but anyway if that's what you're okay with, at least own it.

A good friend of mine just got measles. She was immunized but hadn't had a booster. Just a PSA, since the world is full of twatwaffles who don't vaccinate their kids and therefore measles infections are on the rise, be sure that you have had TWO measles shots.

[Cassandra]

Case in point: Ruining It for the Rest of Us

So I'm listening to this right now, and what really irritates me is that the narrator says "And people are scared about vaccines, because they're not natural or organic. There is no organic version of the diptheria shot"

WTF??

This baffles me.

[Beeks]

So I'm listening to this right now, and what really irritates me is that the narrator says "And people are scared about vaccines, because they're not natural or organic. There is no organic version of the diptheria shot"

WTF??

This baffles me.

What about it baffles you? Most shots are full of unnatural crap.

EDIT: also, just as a general comment, we will have our children fully vaccinated by the time they are school-aged. However, I don't think vaccines are as safe as they could be, and I have no problem with people refusing to vax or demanding safer vaccines. I have a small baby and a two year old. The tiny baby has only had one vaccine so far (and is too young for most) but you know what? I don't depend on other people to not get him sick. I keep him out of public places and when I do have to take him to the doc (he sees a naturopathic doc so there are probably tons of un-vax'd kids germing up the waiting room) I keep him on me and covered up and we wash our hands a million times afterwards. All this "YOU'RE KILLING BABIES BY NOT VAXING" is a little insane, in my opinion.

[Terrie]

All this "YOU'RE KILLING BABIES BY NOT VAXING" is a little insane, in my opinion.

I know people who have had their children killed or harmed by diseases like whooping cough. I don't find it insane at all.

[valsa]

All this "YOU'RE KILLING BABIES BY NOT VAXING" is a little insane, in my opinion.

So you don't believe that parents who do not vaccinate their children, leaving them open to infection, are also putting children too young to be vaccinated yet in danger?

I suppose you have a factual backing for this belief? I just hope it's a little better than the last citation you provided.

[ChickeyMonkey]

I remember an article in Parenting Magazine I read very late one night as I pumped milk for my son who hadn't quite gotten the hang of latching on yet. It was on the whole vaccinate/don't vaccinate debate. One incident was a baby who was not old enough to get a certain vaccination died after coming in contact with cousins who had not been vaccinated and passed it on to the baby. I'm sure family get-togethers were strained, to say the least, after that. How heartbreaking for both families involved.

Can someone please tell me what "riffle" means? I missed it.

Twatwaffle is my new favorite word.

[Beeks]

So you don't believe that parents who do not vaccinate their children, leaving them open to infection, are also putting children too young to be vaccinated yet in danger?

I suppose you have a factual backing for this belief? I just hope it's a little better than the last citation you provided.

I didn't say it's not a risk, but you probably have a better chance of killing somebody by getting in your car and driving down the freeway.

[Beeks]

I know people who have had their children killed or harmed by diseases like whooping cough. I don't find it insane at all.

And I know people who've had their children killed or harmed in car accidents. But nobody is flipping out on people for driving these deadly machines down the street every day.

I just think the whole argument is a bit overblown.

[amie]

..........

[Beeks]

Oh, c'mon. Those "deadly machines" serve a purpose other than to sicken and destroy. Disease does not. The two aren't comparable on any rational level.

The argument wouldn't be overblown if people refused to reject common sense.

Like I said, I don't think vaccines are as safe as they can be. For that reason, I'm not going to rail against people who make a different choice than I have regarding the risk they're willing to take with their children's lives. It's not a parenting choice I'm willing to go nuts over.

[valsa]

Like I said, I don't think vaccines are as safe as they can be.

And I'm sure you have tons of credible research to back this opinion, of course. Would you mind sharing it with the rest of the class?

[Beeks]

And I'm sure you have tons of credible research to back this opinion, of course. Would you mind sharing it with the rest of the class?

You don't have to take such a bitchy tone. I think I'm being pretty reasonable here and it'd be nice to have this discussion without being treated badly.

[PBrooke]

Hi there! I just returned from a two-week vacation to the UK. Naturally, I had to go through immigration twice (pretty painless, I must say... and as a side note, the fact that you're allowed to keep your shoes on at London Heathrow checkpoint made me feel a little more... dignified). Anyway, when you get to immigration in London, I didn't notice any particular signs or warnings - just "stand in line over here" sorts of things - but in the US there are TONS of signs warning about measles. Listing the symptoms, and essentially saying to foreign visitors, "If you get home and you have these symptoms, tell your doctor you've been visiting the US." Kind of creeped me out, actually - I never really thought of us as a measles-ridden country, but apparently we are experiencing a 15-year high...

[Witsec6]

...

Twatwaffle is my new favorite word.

It comes from another board I read. I hope it catches on as well here! :mrgreen:

[Terrie]

Hi there! I just returned from a two-week vacation to the UK. Naturally, I had to go through immigration twice (pretty painless, I must say... and as a side note, the fact that you're allowed to keep your shoes on at London Heathrow checkpoint made me feel a little more... dignified). Anyway, when you get to immigration in London, I didn't notice any particular signs or warnings - just "stand in line over here" sorts of things - but in the US there are TONS of signs warning about measles. Listing the symptoms, and essentially saying to foreign visitors, "If you get home and you have these symptoms, tell your doctor you've been visiting the US." Kind of creeped me out, actually - I never really thought of us as a measles-ridden country, but apparently we are experiencing a 15-year high...

Before the vaccine scare, measles was considered basically wiped out in North America. You might get the occasional case of someone who contracted it abroad, but it never really went anywhere, thanks to herd immunity. Now, with pockets of the unvaccinated all over the place, it spreads.

As for those comparing vaccines to cars, yes, there's a risk in just being in a car, but vaccines are like seat belts. Rarely, they can cause serious damage, but mainly they help to prevent it. And, sure, plenty of people are fine if they don't wear a seat belt, but it's a foolish risk.

[valsa]

You don't have to take such a bitchy tone. I think I'm being pretty reasonable here and it'd be nice to have this discussion without being treated badly.

Actually, I think I do. The pro-vaccine people on this thread and elsewhere have been pointing out that ignorant, uninformed people are making bad decisions based on junk "science" (I'm loath to even dignify it with that label) And what do you do? Come into this thread and link to the exact junk "science" that has been keeping people ignorant and uninformed. You've lost any credibility you had on this subject so I don't think it's too much to ask you to back up any opinion you have with real science. I think you've been spreading enough ignorance to warrent the tone.

[Beeks]

Actually, I think I do. The pro-vaccine people on this thread and elsewhere have been pointing out that ignorant, uninformed people are making bad decisions based on junk "science" (I'm loath to even dignify it with that label) And what do you do? Come into this thread and link to the exact junk "science" that has been keeping people ignorant and uninformed. You've lost any credibility you had on this subject so I don't think it's too much to ask you to back up any opinion you have with real science. I think you've been spreading enough ignorance to warrent the tone.

I am pro-vaccine in general. I said I was open to being corrected on the article I posted, and I WOULD love more information on the findings that kids with Autism overwhelming have inflammatory bowel issues, but nobody commented on it other than to say how much I sucked for linking to Daily Mail. EDIT: and to say I'm "spreading ignorance" by linking to one article and asking for more information is pretty ridiculous. I highly doubt anyone who reads this board followed that link and thought to themselves "well I was pro-vax before but now I'm never vaxing again!"

I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before - when you get all nasty, it does nothing to really further your cause. I am in general an open-minded person and I HAVE changed my opinion on controversial things in the past, so I really don't see the need to be nasty.

[Terrie]

I WOULD love more information on the findings that kids with Autism overwhelming have inflammatory bowel issues.

They don't. Autism. 2009 Jul;13(4):343-55.

Are there more bowel symptoms in children with autism compared to normal children and children with other developmental and neurological disorders?: A case control study.

Smith RA, Farnworth H, Wright B, Allgar V.

This study showed that gut issues were more common in kids with autism than neurotypical kids, BUT that they have the SAME rate as children with other types of neuro and developmental disorders. There is no mystical autistic gut issue.

[valsa]

I am pro-vaccine in general. I said I was open to being corrected on the article I posted, and I WOULD love more information on the findings that kids with Autism overwhelming have inflammatory bowel issues, but nobody commented on it other than to say how much I sucked for linking to Daily Mail. EDIT: and to say I'm "spreading ignorance" by linking to one article and asking for more information is pretty ridiculous. I highly doubt anyone who reads this board followed that link and thought to themselves "well I was pro-vax before but now I'm never vaxing again!"

I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion before - when you get all nasty, it does nothing to really further your cause. I am in general an open-minded person and I HAVE changed my opinion on controversial things in the past, so I really don't see the need to be nasty.

You're spreading ignorance by perpetuating a belief that the junk "science" you linked to has any credibility. You may not have changed any pro-vac minds but you certainly could have reinforced an anti-vaccers belief that MMR vaccines can cause harm. That, in turn, could lead to the harming of innocent children. As to the inflammatory illness and autism, it's been debunked. The study conducted that "exposed" the link was a fabrication of data.

I see the need to be nasty because not all sides of the argument are equal. Your opinion is based on nothing but lies and falsehoods and should not be given the same respect as an opinion that, though different than my own, has something legit to back it up. Willful ignorance should be smacked down as swiftly and harshly as possible. Next time, do a little of the legwork yourself before spreading the lie. As it is, you remind me of the fundies who spread the "most child molestors are homosexuals" belief without looking at the facts first (a belief which, by the way, had it's own bad study to back it up)

[Deleted03]

valsa I feel you're very irrespectful. I want to say lots of stuff but I know I'm not the best placed for being the moralist toward how you should ask around other people. It's a heated argument for both sides, but the least you could have is some decency and I don't see it. It's not helping your argument at all. That's all.

[Beeks]

You're spreading ignorance by perpetuating a belief that the junk "science" you linked to has any credibility. You may not have changed any pro-vac minds but you certainly could have reinforced an anti-vaccers belief that MMR vaccines can cause harm. That, in turn, could lead to the harming of innocent children. As to the inflammatory illness and autism, it's been debunked. The study conducted that "exposed" the link was a fabrication of data.

I see the need to be nasty because not all sides of the argument are equal. Your opinion is based on nothing but lies and falsehoods and should not be given the same respect as an opinion that, though different than my own, has something legit to back it up. Willful ignorance should be smacked down as swiftly and harshly as possible. Next time, do a little of the legwork yourself before spreading the lie. As it is, you remind me of the fundies who spread the "most child molestors are homosexuals" belief without looking at the facts first (a belief which, by the way, had it's own bad study to back it up)

MMR CAN cause harm - nobody disputes that. Some kids are more at risk than others - my DS2 is one of them, for a few different reasons. Therefore, I'm not going to question parents who refuse to vax until vaccines are made safer, or who choose to vax on a different schedule. I am pro-vaccine and feel that the pros outweigh the cons, but I also agree that vaccines could be safer. This is not an extreme viewpoint by any means, so please stop with the "omg Beeks doesn't agree with VALSA so she must be a gay-hating FUNDIE!" crap.

You're just ridiculous Valsa and I'm done with you.

Ignore.

[Austin]

I like the seatbelt analogy.

[FakePigtails]

I like the seatbelt analogy.

Me too, but with a note or asterisk that it's not just you in the seatbelt but also those who have no choice but to rely on herd immunity.

Also, I wasn't bothered by valsa's tone, but maybe that just comes with knowing people who would die if they caught one of these preventable diseases as well as hating to see the spread of pseudoscientific lines of thought (ex: "natural"* is better and/or safer).

*quotes because the line between natural and unnatural can be very blurred.