A Vaccine Thread for EllaJac

[valsa]

Why is that?

I know the increase of fertility treatments and thus multiple gestation pregnancies is a factor but I'm not sure about the rest.

ETA: After a quick look around the internet, it appears rising rates of C-sections are associated closely with increases in preemies, though it's hard to say that it's causative. It could be that more elective C-sections are being scheduled and the due dates are being estimated wrong, thus resulting in a premature birth, or it could be that preemies are simply more likely to be C-section births as it's less stressful on them.

Maternal obesity also correlates with premature birth and that's been on the rise as well.

[Alecto]

Lots of pregnancies that would have been stillborns are now premies as well thanks to modern medical science.

[dcmhejbl62]

Sorry, just getting back to this --

Why we were "fired": Unbeknownst to us (because it wasn't an issue when we found her) our pediatrician was part of a practice that required vaccinations, with no deviation to the CDC schedule. When our youngest was born, I think she went out on a limb in allowing us to delay while I was still researching, but she got more insistent at each visit. My husband took one of the other kids in for an unrelated medical problem while I was at work, and suddenly she was pressuring him to get his tetanus booster, which wasn't due for at least six months. She was extremely rude and I had to actually leave my office and stand in the stairwell to be loud enough to talk over her. Later that week we got a letter saying we had 30 days to find a new doctor.

It was a shame because up until that issue we had gotten along great; she trusted my "gut instincts" and I trusted her not to give a flip diagnosis and send us home. She was also very open and knowledgeable about complementary medicine and the latest traditional medical treatments, except with vaccines, of course. I later wondered if she'd been pressured by the head doctor of that practice to make us comply or leave; I'd heard from others that he threatened to "fire" families on the spot if they wanted to delay or selectively vaccinate, and their office is not recommended for people who selectively vax in our area.

Before starting with our current ped, I interviewed him and was completely up front with our (at that time) indecision over vaccines. He is pro-vaccine and asked to have a moment to say his piece when they were due, but would respect our decision and not pressure us to change our minds. I agreed, and our kids (and grandkids, who are fully vaccinated) have been seing him ever since.

[dcmhejbl62]

There is lots of accommodation from most commentors for people with known medical conditions, and that is definitely a positive step in the right direction (again, when I started the battle there was NO accommodation for ANY condition). Here's the issue:

When I made the decision to decline, even though we were sicker than the general population, we had no serious, documented, diagnosed medical conditions except allergies and asthma. My mom was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, but at the time that was still seen by many doctors as a made-up or psychiatric condition (quote by one doctor: "It responds to anti-depressants, so it's really just depression." Sriously). The genetic test I took last fall did not even exist.

So I was, by most standards here, declining for my own selfish desire not see my precious baby hurt due to my gut instinct plus anecdotal evidence from previous children, or something like that.

But I was right, and the "rigorous" science of the day was not. Other parents criticized for their gut instincts have been and may be proved right too.

Instead of villainizing parents who are trying to protect their children... instead of sacrificing the weaker among us for public health's "survival of the fittest" manifesto... seems like it would help everyone if scientists and pharm companies could work harder to identify children who would be at risk in vaccinating, and improve vaccine safety for everybody.

[Alecto]

There is lots of accommodation from most commentors for people with known medical conditions, and that is definitely a positive step in the right direction (again, when I started the battle there was NO accommodation for ANY condition). Here's the issue:

When I made the decision to decline, even though we were sicker than the general population, we had no serious, documented, diagnosed medical conditions except allergies and asthma. My mom was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, but at the time that was still seen by many doctors as a made-up or psychiatric condition (quote by one doctor: "It responds to anti-depressants, so it's really just depression." Sriously). The genetic test I took last fall did not even exist.

So I was, by most standards here, declining for my own selfish desire not see my precious baby hurt due to my gut instinct plus anecdotal evidence from previous children, or something like that.

But I was right, and the "rigorous" science of the day was not. Other parents criticized for their gut instincts have been and may be proved right too.

Instead of villainizing parents who are trying to protect their children... instead of sacrificing the weaker among us for public health's "survival of the fittest" manifesto... seems like it would help everyone if scientists and pharm companies could work harder to identify children who would be at risk in vaccinating, and improve vaccine safety for everybody.

But here is the rub, at least in my experience, from my friends who are in their late 20's and early 30's. Some of them are anti-vax not because of gut instinct, or any actual intelligent thought process, but because they are sheeple, convinced the government, pharmaceutical companies, and space aliens are all out to get us. For every one person I know who has done any real thought or research, there are 10 more who say that the government or pharma put a hit out on the only scientist telling the truth.

If people we doing what they were doing for at least some reasoned thought? Yeah. But some people are just downright ignorant and would rather trust the likes of Alex Jones and Jenny McCarthy than actual experts.

[lra07]

Good point. Hopefully, the children of anti-vaccers will have half a brain and get vacced as adults, before becoming pregnant themselves.

I did, if that makes you feel better. I was partially immunized as a child, but my mother become convinced that vaccines were bad so I never had the rest of them. When I was 20 I went to the dr to ask about getting them, and ended up just getting the whole lot done at once. Fortunately it was free, as I was technically entitled to them.

[GoJiRa]

If you do not get your kids vaccinated you she be charged with child abuse...

[valsa]

But I was right, and the "rigorous" science of the day was not. Other parents criticized for their gut instincts have been and may be proved right too.

Instead of villainizing parents who are trying to protect their children... instead of sacrificing the weaker among us for public health's "survival of the fittest" manifesto... seems like it would help everyone if scientists and pharm companies could work harder to identify children who would be at risk in vaccinating, and improve vaccine safety for everybody.

How were you "right" and how is vaccination "sacrificing the weaker among us"? If anything, it's protecting the weak. If someone cannot be vaccinated, having everyone else around them be vaccinated is what protects them. Just remember, your child may have had a medical condition that made your decision not to vaccinate the right one (what I'm guessing you mean by "I was right") but if everyone around your child had the same "gut instinct" not to vaccinate their children, without a medical reason for it- that would have made your child totally vulnerable. Particularly if they already have health problems.

[ChickeyMonkey]

[

[Cassandra]

If you do not get your kids vaccinated you she be charged with child abuse...

I wouldn't go that far. However if theoretically I chose to not vaccinate and one of my children got sick and infected other children too young for vaccines or something similar I wouldn't be surprised if I were on the bad end of a lawsuit. And I think thats fine.

[NothingLeftToLose]

I did not vax my first child in the 90's due to the first (now refuted) mercury/autism link study.

I had a subscription to Mothering Magazine, co-slept, and used a sling. I breastfed her for 1 year - we ate organic as much as possible - we were nondairy. I used cloth diapers.

She was diagnosed with Autism at age 3.

Thinking back, I just about worried myself sisk over things that I likely absolutely no control over.. Now I feel lucky just to get through the day with all kids fed and uninjured.

[Alecto]

I do have to wonder how many diagnosis of Autism aren't something else? Jenny McCarthy's son was misdiagnosed, and I know personally of a few cases. Could the number of diagnoses be on the rise because it's an easy and accepted diagnosis, when the diagnosis could be something else that actually requires a different treatment?

[FakePigtails]

I do have to wonder how many diagnosis of Autism aren't something else? Jenny McCarthy's son was misdiagnosed, and I know personally of a few cases. Could the number of diagnoses be on the rise because it's an easy and accepted diagnosis, when the diagnosis could be something else that actually requires a different treatment?

I've heard of cases where something that's not autism but very close gets the diagnosis because it's the only way for the family to access/afford intervention services.

[Terrie]

I do have to wonder how many diagnosis of Autism aren't something else? Jenny McCarthy's son was misdiagnosed, and I know personally of a few cases. Could the number of diagnoses be on the rise because it's an easy and accepted diagnosis, when the diagnosis could be something else that actually requires a different treatment?

It's suspected that this may account for some of the issue. Some kids diagnosed as autistic were never seen by any specialist. The risk of misdiagnosis is fairly easy to understand when you look at http://www.mofas.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Overlapping-Characteristics-3-23-10-CBT.pdf.

Personally, I have no respect for the idea that vaccines can cause autism or similar disorders, after someone tried to convince me that my OCD is linked to mercury fillings and vaccines. I've had OCD since I was a small child, and got my first filling at 16. And there is a long family history of the disorder on both sides of my family.

[AliceR]

There is a doctor who wrote the chapter on immunizations for Dr. Oz's book on babies...her name is Dr. Sherri Tenpenny. She runs a clinic near me and is friend's with his wife. If you go to his website you can watch a fascinating episode that let's doctors (or, sadly, Big Pharma Parrots who can rarely tell you how the shots are cultured, how they affect your system...but they sure know how to whip a waiver out for that completely safe shot. The MMR killed my two year old cousin....one of the saddest days of my life...watching the drugged mother up at his casket with a toy...she tried to wake him...so she could once again hear his laughter. When the weather turned cold she would visit the graveyard and wonder who was keeping him warm...her logic was gone...she was now a heroin addict),

Dr. Sears does a nice job too...showing that 18 out of the 23 major studies doctors quote on immunizations were bought and paid for by BigPharma. And the CDC is, finally, studying vaccines and autism...not that I am holding my breath for the truth.

There is a scientist who researches the shots...I can get the site...but it is detailed research that even doctors would struggle through. My surgeon is a research professor who says he is not against my not vaccinating (his sister didn't and his doctor/researcher wife was't keen on them). What he is against? Ignorance. Next time your doctor asks for blind trust of him...ask just how many hours they have actually studied the issue. Ask for each ingredient and what side effects to watch for in that perfectly safe shot...refuse to sign the waiver for that safe shot...see how far you get. Many threaten patients with quit letters. Something that is supposedly that good does not need a bully pit doctor intimidating a mom...move on...find a doctor who can think outside the box before your child gets sick and needs a doctor that can actually think.

Also read about the court ruling that said the MMR did cause autism to a neurologist's daughter.

[nuri]

The CDC has done many studies, all of them have been showing there's no link:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concer ... Index.html

That autism court ruling, Cedillo v. Secretary of Health and Human Services? It wasn't autism, but autism like symptoms caused by a specific mitochondrial disorder, that may have been effected by the vaccines. A tragic circumstance caused by vaccination, but one that is extraordinarily rare. Reactions will happen but they'll happen with anything we put into our bodies.

[valsa]

The CDC has done many studies, all of them have been showing there's no link:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concer ... Index.html

That autism court ruling, Cedillo v. Secretary of Health and Human Services? It wasn't autism, but autism like symptoms caused by a specific mitochondrial disorder, that may have been effected by the vaccines. A tragic circumstance caused by vaccination, but one that is extraordinarily rare. Reactions will happen but they'll happen with anything we put into our bodies.

The CDC is controlled by Big Pharma! You can't trust anything they say!

[apple1]

The CDC is controlled by Big Pharma! You can't trust anything they say!

Interestingly appearing as a first-time poster.

[formergothardite]

The CDC is controlled by Big Pharma! You can't trust anything they say!

Don't you mean Big pHARMa. :roll: They are out to kill us all and take our money.

[Beeks]

I wouldn't go that far. However if theoretically I chose to not vaccinate and one of my children got sick and infected other children too young for vaccines or something similar I wouldn't be surprised if I were on the bad end of a lawsuit. And I think thats fine.

You'd never win that suit. It'd be impossible to prove.

edit: riffle

[FakePigtails]

There is a doctor who wrote the chapter on immunizations for Dr. Oz's book on babies...her name is Dr. Sherri Tenpenny. She runs a clinic near me and is friend's with his wife. If you go to his website you can watch a fascinating episode that let's doctors (or, sadly, Big Pharma Parrots who can rarely tell you how the shots are cultured, how they affect your system...but they sure know how to whip a waiver out for that completely safe shot. The MMR killed my two year old cousin....one of the saddest days of my life...watching the drugged mother up at his casket with a toy...she tried to wake him...so she could once again hear his laughter. When the weather turned cold she would visit the graveyard and wonder who was keeping him warm...her logic was gone...she was now a heroin addict),

Dr. Sears does a nice job too...showing that 18 out of the 23 major studies doctors quote on immunizations were bought and paid for by BigPharma. And the CDC is, finally, studying vaccines and autism...not that I am holding my breath for the truth.

There is a scientist who researches the shots...I can get the site...but it is detailed research that even doctors would struggle through. My surgeon is a research professor who says he is not against my not vaccinating (his sister didn't and his doctor/researcher wife was't keen on them). What he is against? Ignorance. Next time your doctor asks for blind trust of him...ask just how many hours they have actually studied the issue. Ask for each ingredient and what side effects to watch for in that perfectly safe shot...refuse to sign the waiver for that safe shot...see how far you get. Many threaten patients with quit letters. Something that is supposedly that good does not need a bully pit doctor intimidating a mom...move on...find a doctor who can think outside the box before your child gets sick and needs a doctor that can actually think.

Also read about the court ruling that said the MMR did cause autism to a neurologist's daughter.

I'm sorry about your cousin, but how did MMR kill him? If you think that because of quacks like Dr. Tenpenny, you're not getting good info. She's a quack, and Dr. Oz is sprinting towards that descriptor for himself as well:

http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderg ... idiots.php

http://sciencebasedparenting.com/2009/0 ... -her-name/

She also has a page on whale.to

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... er-of-woo/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ind ... ith-dr-oz/

and

Amongst numerous other examples.

[valsa]

She's a quack, and Dr. Oz is sprinting towards that descriptor for himself as well

I think Dr. Oz crossed that line long ago. I put him on the same level as Dr. Phil, though I don't have the same personal loathing of Dr. Oz as a human being.

[AliceR]

Dr.Oz discounted....hmmm....so....how open minded are you? Did you read the highly researched other research? Or do we play kill the messenger?

[Austin]

My sister drank this same koolaid and could spout this stuff like it was her job and then two of her three non-vaxed, co-slept, slung-never-strollered, breastfed only, etc., etc., ended up being diagnosed as "on the spectrum".

Before this, no matter how many studies, there were never enough studies. Any studies with conclusions she didn't agree with were bogus. Respected researchers were stooges for Big Pharma. Peer reviewed medical journals were fronts for the same. She first tried to tell me that my one son, with a moderate learning disability, was LD because of vaccines. Then it was because I had used a stroller. blah blah No, it's actually a familial thing on my husband's side of the family. My husband has a mild form of the same learning disability and there are other relatives with it. Clearly, it's a rather minor wiring thing that is passed within family.

That information still didn't shut her up. Nothing shut her up until her own kids, sadly, were diagnosed.

These discussions never change anybody's minds, it seems.

[GoJiRa]

I would like to know how an MMR vaccine caused death as well. It seems impossible. Vaccines only carry the antigens of a disease. There is no payload. Maybe it could cause death if you had a compromised immune system to start with.