A Vaccine Thread for EllaJac

[emesbe]

[Then I found out this same practice has circumcised at least 2 children at birth, without their parents' permission, and somewhat uncertain changed to "oh, hell no".

[Patsy]

Okay, vague, because I don't want to be specific on details, but:

-A dear person in my life does not vaccinate their children, despite the fact that a mutual dear person in our lives has several very serious immune deficiencies, and a dear person in their lives also does. Also, one of those children has had a confirmed vaccine-preventable (almost def. would not have had it with vaccines) disease, and the other probably has but it was never definitely diagnosed. I certainly don't spend all my time around them huffing about their choices :) even though I very much disagree with them

-Another person in my life has permanent disabilities due to a disease, that would not have occurred had a vaccine been available earlier than it was.

-As mentioned above, a dear person in my life has different immune deficiences.

I do feel quite strongly about these issues, but that doesn't mean I take a hard-line on it all (like I said, I don't think I've ever heard a pro-vaccination person say that EVERYONE should be vaccinated or that they work 100% - simply not true), and it doesn't mean I'm cranky - I'm just trying to be as clear as possible in explaining what I disagree with.

[demgirl]

I realize that this is going to make some people angry and or might hurt them, but I have thought about it, and I just feel like I have to say this. I said it to my sister in law when she considered not vaccinating her children and I stand by it. For those who don't vaccinate for reasons other than medical, I just feel incredible frustration. They say it might make a different decision if there was a pandemic or epidemic of something horrible like polio, but they don't have to make that decision, because there is no such epidemic. And the reason there is no such epidemic is because we have all taken what you perceive to be a risk and gotten vaccinated and had our children vaccinated. So, essentially what they're saying is, "My kids are too good to take the risks that other kids take. Let all the other kids take the risk, and my kids get to benefit."

If you're anti-vaccine for everyone, you're willing to risk the prevalence of horrible, crippling and devastating childhood diseases that killed millions, and led to lifetime suffering for millions more. If you're anti-vaccination for just your children, you're saying that your children are somehow more worthy of being sheltered than millions of other children and you're a free rider on our being willing to take minimal risks to ourselves and our children. And either way, the morality of it all just sits wrong with me.

The thing is, of course there are bad reactions to vaccines and if it happens to you or someone you love, it must be devastating. And maybe that does mean there's something in your genetics that makes your family particularly susceptible to vaccination side effects, so you should go slowly or forgo it altogether. But at least recognize the moral conflict. I'm saying this as a general proposition and it's not directed to anyone in particular because I know a lot you do see the moral conflict.

I think part of the problem is that we haven't seen a mass endemic in many of our times. The anti-vacciners tend to be younger parents, whereas people from our parents generations saw the effect of diseases like polio and still think vaccines are a miracle. My dad is always talking about how fortunate he felt to have children that received vaccines, because growing up he knew children that were crippled by polio and even had a good friend die of it.

And polio was the worst in the US in the 1950s, when we had modern sewage and already understood infections and how they are spread -- it's not like we've gotten all that much better at containing diseases since that time.

It's like ... Okay, I have an anxiety disorder and clinical depression. I was utterly failed by the psychiatric community. I was overmedicated with drugs that made me WORSE and I'm healthy for the first time in 15 years because I finally took control of my own health and went off all medication. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to tell others to avoid all psych meds, simply because I suffered for 15 years -- because for many, if not most, psych drugs are a terrific reprieve from their illness. Psychiatry and psychiatric drugs hurt ME, but that doesn't mean that they aren't good for society in general, just because I had a bad experience and huge parts of my life were destroyed by it.

[valsa]

Just as long as you keep your special, precious crotchfruit from starting an epidemic, we're cool, OK.

Ha! I love it when someone reads my mind.

I think I posted before about reading of doctors "firing" non-vaccing patients and I think it's great. When I have kids, I think I'll try to seek out one of those types of pediatricians if we have them in our city. The doctors who did so came right out and basically said that waiting rooms are a cesspool of germs and having non-vaccers share that space with patients too young or unable to get vacced is way too dangerous.

Also, I'd like to point out that even before becoming a nursing student, I did not like the thought of giving multiple vaccinations at once. I still don't. And it has nothing to do with this touchy-feely crap about a "desire to protect babies" yada yada. My problem is that vaccinations can have side effects and if you give multiple vaccinations at once, that poses a greater risk of compounding side effects and/or not being able to figure out specifically which vaccine(s) they're having a reaction to.

However, when I do have kids I will be following the CDC's guidelines to the letter. I just won't be getting multiple vaccinations at once. Being the weirdo I am, I separated out the CDC vaccination guidelines and found that, because almost all vaccination recommendations include a timeframe, you can get them separately and still within those timeframes.

Granted, for the first couple of months that includes taking the kid to the doctor every 2 weeks or so, which is a pain in the ass, but it is still worth jumping through those hoops to make sure that both my child and everyone else's child stays safe.

[browngrl]

I

I think part of the problem is that we haven't seen a mass endemic in many of our times. The anti-vacciners tend to be younger parents, whereas people from our parents generations saw the effect of diseases like polio and still think vaccines are a miracle. My dad is always talking about how fortunate he felt to have children that received vaccines, because growing up he knew children that were crippled by polio and even had a good friend die of it.

And polio was the worst in the US in the 1950s, when we had modern sewage and already understood infections and how they are spread -- it's not like we've gotten all that much better at containing diseases since that time.

Yes! I agree with demgirl. I find that people who actually saw the devastation caused by these illnesses are pro vaccine. As more people don't vaccinate these diseases will come back and people will see again the medical sequelae of these illnesses.

[apple1]

Granted, for the first couple of months that includes taking the kid to the doctor every 2 weeks or so, which is a pain in the ass, but it is still worth jumping through those hoops to make sure that both my child and everyone else's child stays safe.

Which is pretty much the same as Dr. Sears' "alternative" schedule.

I suspect the real reason that this is not the standard schedule is that docs do not think that the average parent will consistently bring his/her child into the office every 2 weeks or so. So it's more of a "convenience" thing to group them together.

[Beeks]

Ha! I love it when someone reads my mind.

I think I posted before about reading of doctors "firing" non-vaccing patients and I think it's great. When I have kids, I think I'll try to seek out one of those types of pediatricians if we have them in our city. The doctors who did so came right out and basically said that waiting rooms are a cesspool of germs and having non-vaccers share that space with patients too young or unable to get vacced is way too dangerous.

Also, I'd like to point out that even before becoming a nursing student, I did not like the thought of giving multiple vaccinations at once. I still don't. And it has nothing to do with this touchy-feely crap about a "desire to protect babies" yada yada. My problem is that vaccinations can have side effects and if you give multiple vaccinations at once, that poses a greater risk of compounding side effects and/or not being able to figure out specifically which vaccine(s) they're having a reaction to.

However, when I do have kids I will be following the CDC's guidelines to the letter. I just won't be getting multiple vaccinations at once. Being the weirdo I am, I separated out the CDC vaccination guidelines and found that, because almost all vaccination recommendations include a timeframe, you can get them separately and still within those timeframes.

Granted, for the first couple of months that includes taking the kid to the doctor every 2 weeks or so, which is a pain in the ass, but it is still worth jumping through those hoops to make sure that both my child and everyone else's child stays safe.

I'm curious why you'd want to space them out

[FakePigtails]

Here's a comparison of the Sears and CDC vaccine schedules for reference:

The biggest problem I see is how long the MMR one is delayed (and apparently it's not available as separate shots anymore so who knows how long some wait).

Anyway ITA with those saying families who have had reactions should be more careful and wouldn't fault them for not vaxxing and "riding the herd." YOU are part of who the herd is meant for. When it crosses the line is when it becomes it being okay for *no one* to vaccinate if they don't want to because of the miniscule possibility of a reaction minus the history to back it up.

Like Patsy, I've had my share of friends and family without working immune systems and it's terrifying to think they might die if exposed to a VPD, and there's a layer of dismay at how it shouldn't be an issue in an age of easily available, overall VERY safe vaccines against those diseases.

And God, has anyone else seen video of babies fighting pertussis? They literally can barely breathe. It's appalling and heartbreaking and there's no reason it should be happening today.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... ussis&aq=f

[Terrie]

It's always been known that some children "outgrow" Autism? I don't think so. There's no such thing as outgrowing true Autism - not to say those with Autism can't progress and lead happy, productive lives. But you can't outgrow it.

Outgrow may have been the wrong word, but a percentage of children diagnosed with autism no longer meet the criteria for the disorder by the time they reach adulthood. Now, why is a complicated issue. Some of them may have had symptoms that mimicked autism, but had a resolvable cause. Some may have autism under one diagnostic system, but not another -- such as kids with Rhett's Syndrome, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or Fragile X, who some people feel should be considered autistic if they meet the criteria and others say that, even if they meet the criteria, they're not autistic. But if you're going to say that TRUE autism different from these cases, then there can be no conversation on "curing autism" because you've just eliminated all your data.

Ironically, we do know one cause of some cases of autism. Pre-natal exposure to rubella. Something that can be prevented by vaccination.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I'm curious why you'd want to space them out

I may be incorrect, but I think valsa wants to space them so that if there's a reaction to something, it's more clear which shot the reaction is to. If you get 3 shots in one visit and have a severe reaction, it's harder to know what the reaction was to, as opposed to having one shot every 2 weeks or whatever.

[Jessica]

It's like ... Okay, I have an anxiety disorder and clinical depression. I was utterly failed by the psychiatric community. I was overmedicated with drugs that made me WORSE and I'm healthy for the first time in 15 years because I finally took control of my own health and went off all medication. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to tell others to avoid all psych meds, simply because I suffered for 15 years -- because for many, if not most, psych drugs are a terrific reprieve from their illness. Psychiatry and psychiatric drugs hurt ME, but that doesn't mean that they aren't good for society in general, just because I had a bad experience and huge parts of my life were destroyed by it.

Exactly.

[Terrie]

A note on reactions and the CDC schedule. I have no problem with making adjustments due to a known medical issue. Many known issues, such as allergies to components or immune issues, are already part of the CDC recommendations. But if there's no medical reason, I am very skeptical of spacing them out. Why? Because you're leaving your child open for a serious illness for no reason. Take measles. Extremely contagious and contagious before symptoms show up. Really, really good at finding the non-immune population, as we've seen with several recent outbreaks. Even in an otherwise healthy population, the risk of death is ~1/1000. In vulnerable populations, it jumps to 30%. And that death rate does not include all serious complications, like encephalitis or miscarriage.

Yes, there is a risk of serious complications with vaccines. And if you're the one in a million, your chances are 100%. Which sucks so much, there aren't words for it. But just like I worry a lot more about being hit by a car than being attacked by a shark, the diseases vaccines prevent scare me a lot more than the risk associated with vaccines.

[Cassandra]

And I would rather take my chances at my child getting sick than having to live like my brother has the last 31 years. Don't think for a second I don't know or worry what could happen to my kids, who are yes, unvaccinated. When there was a whopping cough outbreak at my sons school...I was terrified. My son never got sick, but health is about a lot more things than shots. Its good nutrition and adequate sleep and proper hygine.

I think that vaccines are a very small part of over all health...very small. We, as a society, at a lot more aware of health and staying healthy.

I really believe that every parent has the responsibilty to make educated choices. YES...kids to have vaccination reactions and yes they can be horrible. What I chose to do for my kids doesn't mean that you all have to follow suit. I have to be at peace with my decisions....and I am.

Does your son go to a private school? I thought you had to have all your shots to attend public school?

[Austin]

Does your son go to a private school? I thought you had to have all your shots to attend public school?

I think it depends on the states, but many states allow exemptions for "religious" or "philosophical" reasons. I'm not sure of the exact wording, but it seems that if a parent doesn't want to vaccinate, they pretty much don't have to.

[emmiedahl]

You are allowed to opt out in California and Washington. It's not a big deal and it is very common here in Central Washington--I would say around half of the parents I know do not vax. I found out who does and does not when we had a whooping cough epidemic and the non-vaxed kids were all in the hospital fighting for their lives.

[stacyf]

[The doctors who did so came right out and basically said that waiting rooms are a cesspool of germs and having non-vaccers share that space with patients too young or unable to get vacced is way too dangerous.]

I listened to an episode of This American Life that addressed this subject. It was told from the perspective of a mother who nearly lost her baby to a disease that is vaccinated for. Her baby came in contact with a child at a Playground who had not been vaccinated because his parents were anti vaccine. It was very said hearing her fight for her child's life.

[Witsec1]

I worry about what will happen to the children of the children of the anti-vaxers. Infants get some immunity from mom's breastmilk, but if mom was not vaxed, and protected from exposure due to herd immunity, the 2nd generation of anti-vaxers will be really vulnerable if herd immunity is compromised.

[valsa]

I'm curious why you'd want to space them out

Read the bold.

[snozzberry]

The biggest problem I see is how long the MMR one is delayed (and apparently it's not available as separate shots anymore so who knows how long some wait).

Merck started making the separate shots for MMR again this year.

[valsa]

I worry about what will happen to the children of the children of the anti-vaxers. Infants get some immunity from mom's breastmilk, but if mom was not vaxed, and protected from exposure due to herd immunity, the 2nd generation of anti-vaxers will be really vulnerable if herd immunity is compromised.

Good point. Hopefully, the children of anti-vaccers will have half a brain and get vacced as adults, before becoming pregnant themselves.

[Cassandra]

You are allowed to opt out in California and Washington. It's not a big deal and it is very common here in Central Washington--I would say around half of the parents I know do not vax. I found out who does and does not when we had a whooping cough epidemic and the non-vaxed kids were all in the hospital fighting for their lives.

I don't have kids (and I don't really want them), but if you're responsible for the health and well-being of a human life I feel like you should do everything possible to protect them. I would feel so guilty if someone under my care got a vaccine-preventable disease because of a decision I made for them.

[ChickeyMonkey]

When I worked at a peds office, there was one lady whose son had been "fired" from the practice (she came in with a friend who was having her kid's appointment & was trying to get the doctor to see her kid again). One look at the "notes" part of his chart and you'd understand why. I can't remember exactly, since it was over 10 years ago, but I think she was combative and wouldn't follow the doctor's directions and she was just such a hassle that he dismissed her from his care. There was another doctor and a PA, but I don't remember if she was banned from the whole practice, or just that doctor.

As for autism becoming more prevalent, I think it has a lot to do with being more aware of the symptoms that fall on the spectrum, and a better understanding in general of the condition. When you know what to look for and what is typical of a disorder, you can more readily identify it and give it a name. That isn't as eloquent as other posters can say it, though.

[emmiedahl]

Autism is more common now, even if you take into account changes in diagnosing criteria. However, would my mom's fifties generation, the first to have been massively vaccinated, have been the first to see the increase if it were due to that? We are exposed to so many chemicals, toxins, and genetically modified foods that I would be hesitant to blame vaccines. Not to sound too much like Zhuzhu Pet.

[valsa]

Autism is more common now, even if you take into account changes in diagnosing criteria. However, would my mom's fifties generation, the first to have been massively vaccinated, have been the first to see the increase if it were due to that? We are exposed to so many chemicals, toxins, and genetically modified foods that I would be hesitant to blame vaccines. Not to sound too much like Zhuzhu Pet.

Something interesting we studied in one of my nursing classes was that increased rates of autism and learning disabilities can also be linked to advances in medical technology, as well as ability to diagnose those ailments. Just going by memory, some studies have shown that up to 25% of children born "very prematurely" are likely to develop autism and preemies in general are just at a higher risk for autism and/or learning disabilities. As medical technology gets better, premture babies that would have just died before are living- but they're living with long term complications. Add that to the fact that premature births are up over 35% since the early 80s (iirc, 11% or 12% of babies are born early in the U.S.) and its no wonder we've got more kids with autism.

[Cassandra]

Something interesting we studied in one of my nursing classes was that increased rates of autism and learning disabilities can also be linked to advances in medical technology, as well as ability to diagnose those ailments. Just going by memory, some studies have shown that up to 25% of children born "very prematurely" are likely to develop autism and preemies in general are just at a higher risk for autism and/or learning disabilities. As medical technology gets better, premture babies that would have just died before are living- but they're living with long term complications. Add that to the fact that premature births are up over 35% since the early 80s (iirc, 11% or 12% of babies are born early in the U.S.) and its no wonder we've got more kids with autism.

Why is that?