Dillards 26 - Grifting All The Way!

[Pukingpearl]

24 minutes ago, BobTheWalrus said:

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!

I should add, I'm not condoning the Dillards' work, mainly because I can't actually figure out what they ARE doing over there.

I personally think a much more effective mission isn't based on preaching only, it's based on helping in whatever way the community you're serving wants/needs. Building toilets, clean drinking water, education, etc. showing your Christianity through actually making a positive impact versus telling people they'll burn in hell because Catholic. But even those things can be unwanted/have a negative impact on the community being served. 

[Four is Enough]

43 minutes ago, BobTheWalrus said:

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!

I should add, I'm not condoning the Dillards' work, mainly because I can't actually figure out what they ARE doing over there.

You said it yourself. You have to SHOW the love of Christ before you can inspire the love of Christ. What did Jesus Do? He didn't just say Follow me. He got up on those boats and fished. He healed the sick. He raised the dead. I realize we can't do that, nor walk on water, but Jesus wasn't  just talking. HE was walking  Anyone who wants to be a missionary has to show before he preaches. 

And look how the message gets through. Jewish cemetery gets desecrated? Muslim neighbors jump in to help repair the damage and guard against further depredations. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR. It shows God's love and inspires more of the same.

[choralcrusader8613]

20 minutes ago, Pukingpearl said:

I personally think a much more effective mission isn't based on preaching only, it's based on helping in whatever way the community you're serving wants/needs. Building toilets, clean drinking water, education, etc. showing your Christianity through actually making a positive impact versus telling people they'll burn in hell because Catholic. But even those things can be unwanted/have a negative impact on the community being served. 

This. It's about doing the good works, and then telling people why you're doing the good work (meaning saying Jesus wants people to do good works, not saying that you're gonna make them convert so they don't burn in the hot tub of thorns Satan's got for them, because that's not how God works).

[singsingsing]

Right. I realize there are different brands of Christianity, and the fundie brand seems to believe the Good News of the gospel is that Jesus came to die a horrific death so that you, a disgusting sinner, if you repent and IF you happen to be one of God's elect, will be saved from eternal torment and agony in a lake of fire.

Another brand of Christianity (and the one I personally subscribe to) believes the good news is that the kingdom of heaven is here. Now. Jesus brought the kingdom of heaven and following him lets it flourish on earth. How do you follow him? By loving God and your neighbour, helping the poor, visiting those sick and in prison, comforting those who grieve, being fair, honest, generous, humble and forgiving, and trying again when you inevitably fail because you're human. 

[HereticHick]

Jessa's Instagrammed post of Facetiming with Izzy inspired this priceless comment. WILL NO ONE THINK OF THE WHITE BABIES?

 

[SassyPants]

I think this is one of the biggest snafus with Christianity is this: so many sects with so many tenets. I forget the religious terminology for putting the words of Jesus into actions, and I know this concept is one of the most important tenets of some denominations of Christianity, but I have been told that for others, this is not the case. In some denominations, spreading the good news is more focused on talking about and studying the bible...those are the actions that are important. 

 

[2manyKidzzz]

1 hour ago, BobTheWalrus said:

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!

I should add, I'm not condoning the Dillards' work, mainly because I can't actually figure out what they ARE doing over there.

Excellent post and great questions. From my own personal viewpoint, the problem is that they are preaching from the standpoint of a cult which is misogynistic and homophobic at the very least, and which has not allowed any of the Duggars at least, to have a decent education and the women are seriously not allowed any freedom. Also, they do not seem to have anything else to offer than this cultlike view of religion to offer. No skills and they don't even speak the language of the country they are in with any sort of ability.

Good question for intelligent debate. This is just IMO of course. 

[Carm_88]

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Well, I'm pretty sure these people already know Jesus. They're Catholics, so Derick and Jill are not trying to spread the good news, it's been received long ago. They are trying to push their cult on people. And they aren't exactly making themselves part of the community, they're hiding out. Derick preaches Jesus and Jill hides out with Izzy with her family on Skype in case another shower rack should fall.

[choralcrusader8613]

1 hour ago, HereticHick said:

Jessa's Instagrammed post of Facetiming with Izzy inspired this priceless comment. WILL NO ONE THINK OF THE WHITE BABIES?

 

Accurate picture of me right now:

Spoiler

Like, really, what on the earth is going to happen to him just for being a white baby?

[VelociRapture]

17 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I wonder if it said:

1. Go into labor 

2. Pedicure

3. Chiropractor 

Mine said:

Get. Her. Out!

Which is good since I went into labor a little over six weeks prematurely. In that situation, the less detailed the better! 

17 hours ago, nst said:

And I think because Jessa has had two successful home births (ok - one really ok that we know of)  - Jill will go any route to do the same. 

so you doctors and mothers - because she had just such a giant baby in her - was there no possible way she could have delivered him naturally...

if she knew that on any level - that is truly insane 

 

I think that it is possible to birth a baby that big vaginally. But it depends on a lot of factors, such as the baby's position (head down, breach, etc.) and how the mother's body is handling labor.

Jessa was actually almost 10 pounds when she was born. I believe Michelle birthed her vaginally - which is one of the only things I will ever give her credit for. I would have wimped out:

Spoiler

 

----------

And I can't remember who was asking in what thread, but Jessa does appear to have used a carrier with Spurgeon at some point:

Spoiler

I'm just hoping she had Spurgeon in the carrier before or after she cooked - not while she was actually cooking.

 

[OyToTheVey]

16 hours ago, Georgiana said:

I just wanted to throw another perspective into this "sick abroad" discussion as someone who has been very ill in a foreign country.

We all know that different countries have different medical procedures, approved drugs, standards, etc.  Generally they are fairly minor changes and still result in adequate to excellent care. However, when you are in a grave situation, exposing your body to something new or unexpected can worsen your condition. 

When I was sick in China, the embassy gave me STRICT instructions not to accept Chinese medical care for this reason. If I needed to be hospitalized, I would be flown to the nearest Western hospital.  I had to have drugs prescribed to me by the embassy doctor in Beijing, filled in a special pharmacy, and then flown down and delivered to me in Guangzhou by an attaché (for reference, that's about the distance from Seattle to San Diego).  

Its not that Chinese hospitals and medicine suck (they have their issues, but generally no, they do not).  It's that when my body was already under so much stress it was not the time to introduce it to unfamiliar care/substances that I could have an unknown allergy to OR that could cause my immune system to react to. 

Another issue is translation.  I did actually go to a Chinese doctor before getting the embassy involved, and even though I speak decently AND had a translator with me, there was still a huge barrier.  Jill has neither of those advantages.  If something goes wrong, it's going to be hard for her to communicate with her medical team what is happening...which may cost vital time and cause things to be missed.

It can be very small things that tip the scales. A single component change in a standard IV drip between countries that causes you an allergic reaction you never anticipated.  Inability to accurately describe the pain you are in to the doctor, causing them to miss something. 

And of course, it's a terrifying ordeal to be so weak, in so much need, and to lack the comfort and familiarity of a system you understand.  I received EXCELLENT care in China (so much that my primary physician remarked on it back in the US), but I never once felt safe like I did when I walked into urgent care after landing in the US.  That's huge. 

I would never, ever, EVER go through that again if I could avoid it.  Not even in Canada where I would receive excellent, subsidized care with no language barrier!  It's just so much harder, and I think J+D are fools for signing up for this possibility willingly. 

Also, if you ever become seriously ill/injured in a foreign country (enough to require emergency medical care) call your embassy!  Even if you just need regular medical care! They're literally there in part to keep you alive, and as such are INCREDIBLY helpful and have TONS of resources! 

I completely understand. I had an ear infection when in Australia. A completely first world country with no language barrier. It was pretty bad I got dizzy a lot. But tbh I waited til I came home 3 weeks later to go to my doctors here. I'm sick enough a lot, I didn't want to put myself under doctors care there when I didn't know what they would do. And yes I know it was bad to wait but it didn't get that bad until I tried scuba diving and realized just how bad my ear really was. Needless to say, I didn't see much of the Great Barrier Reef and that whole boat trip made me so nauseous. That was my side note lol 

[lomo6]

3 hours ago, 2manyKidzzz said:

Excellent post and great questions. From my own personal viewpoint, the problem is that they are preaching from the standpoint of a cult which is misogynistic and homophobic at the very least, and which has not allowed any of the Duggars at least, to have a decent education and the women are seriously not allowed any freedom. Also, they do not seem to have anything else to offer than this cultlike view of religion to offer. No skills and they don't even speak the language of the country they are in with any sort of ability.

Good question for intelligent debate. This is just IMO of course. 

The other thing is that one of the principle tenets of their cult is having as many blessings as possible.

Do they really think having double-digit broods is going to help women in impoverished areas with high crime rates and insufficient infrastructure? Any halfway competent aid or development worker would be advocating for the exact opposite - that these women have access to high-quality, low-cost or free birth control in order to limit their family size as they see fit.

 

[kmary1]

On 3/2/2017 at 5:25 AM, nastyhobbitses said:

Does refusing to call the country El Salvador have something to do with belief that the Southern Baptist version of Jeebus is the only savior? Is it like that time a teacher in Sudan got in trouble for letting students name a teddy bear Muhammad or when that judge tried to force a kid to be renamed something other than Messiah?

And yet, somehow I get the feeling that they'd be the sort of people who complain about Central American immigrants who don't learn to speak English.

I fucking hated those sorts of expats when I lived in China and they made me ashamed to be an expat - the ones who would refuse to learn even basic Mandarin phrases because it was "soooooo hard" (if you can memorize song lyrics or the slogan "this is America, speak English or get out", you can memorize "ni hao", "duoshao qian", numbers, and "xiexie"), always had to have a Chinese "friend" (read: girlfriend who needs to rethink her life and choices and/or a coworker from the sketchball English cram school they inevitably work at) to translate everything for them, and refuse to even try to learn Chinese cultural norms.

If you're going to move to another country, you don't have to completely assimilate (there were definitely things in China I wasn't really down to adopt), but if you're straight-up unwilling to learn the language/culture, and then expect everyone to give you a pat on the back for associating with foreigners, screw you.

That's an excellent point, I hadn't really thought about how El Salvador actually translates. Maybe that does have something to do with why they never say it. They never had a problem saying Nepal. I wonder what they think of people they come across actually named Jesus then, because I always thought it was a common name in Spanish speaking countries.

[Karma]

3 hours ago, OyToTheVey said:

I had an ear infection when in Australia. A completely first world country with no language barrier. It was pretty bad I got dizzy a lot. But tbh I waited til I came home 3 weeks later to go to my doctors here. I'm sick enough a lot, I didn't want to put myself under doctors care there when I didn't know what they would do

Australia has an excellent health system.  They would have put you on a course of antibiotics if it was an ear infection.  

[Pasta]

Super bad feeling for Jill. She's just not in a good position right now based on her previous birth and her language skills. I hope for the best but still a bad feeling... 

[Gillyweed]

Just now, Pasta said:

Super bad feeling for Jill. She's just not in a good position right now based on her previous birth and her language skills. I hope for the best but still a bad feeling... 

I don't wish for anything bad to happen to her, but I feel the only way the Dillards and the rest of their family will take pregnancy and childbirth seriously is if something bad DOES happen and doesn't have a happy ending, like how they lucked out with Israel after the 3-day fiasco. 

[OyToTheVey]

1 hour ago, Karma said:

Australia has an excellent health system.  They would have put you on a course of antibiotics if it was an ear infection.  

Oh I know but I also didn't really want to take time to go to a doctor instead of having fun. I'm officially 5 

[Bad Wolf]

You'd think the Josie and Jubilee events would make them more cautious, but no. Jebus.

[Denim Jumper]

8 hours ago, BobTheWalrus said:

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!

I should add, I'm not condoning the Dillards' work, mainly because I can't actually figure out what they ARE doing over there.

The Dillard's are primarily evangelizing, with very little of the humanitarian/relief efforts that charactise mission work. 

[PumaLover]

That's an excellent point, I hadn't really thought about how El Salvador actually translates. Maybe that does have something to do with why they never say it. They never had a problem saying Nepal. I wonder what they think of people they come across actually named Jesus then, because I always thought it was a common name in Spanish speaking countries.

Totally OT but I live in a heavily Hispanic area. The other day someone wrote on my neighbor's delivery truck, "Jesus Saves!" And written in response was, "I don't save!" Made me laugh.

[Mercer]

11 hours ago, BobTheWalrus said:

Okay, serious question here:  If "preaching Jesus" isn't " real missionary work", then what would you guys think of real, valid stuff for missionaries to be doing? 

Laying my cards on the table here: I am a Christian, and as far as I understand it, the entire point of being a missionary is to preach Jesus.  There should be genuine love behind it, and so in many cases that means also doing development work, teaching, medical work, running children's homes, all that kind of thing.  But the #1 purpose is to share the gospel.  So I'm really curious when I read statements like this (it's popped up several different times), and I'd love to hear some other views on this!

I should add, I'm not condoning the Dillards' work, mainly because I can't actually figure out what they ARE doing over there.

In addition to what has already been said...

The Dillards just requested $24,000 for groceries, gas, and just general puttering around - as well as, presumably, airfare for their frequent back and forth trips. They are incredibly expensive to support and spend only a portion of their time in their alleged mission field country when they don't have something better going on back home.

Imagine how far that $24,000 could go toward sending a local young person in El Salvador to seminary or Bible college instead. Think of the opportunity that could provide, not just for the recipient but for the community that could gain a permanent pastor from among their own. The best way to preach the gospel isn't just to spend massive amounts of money importing conservative Americans to do so on a temporary basis.

The Dillards may be "preaching Jesus" when they're actually in El Salvador and get around to it, but that doesn't mean they get a blank check for how much money they expend and how much time they waste. 

[actuallyjessica]

I must be heartless. I don't feel bad for Jill at all. She put herself in this position.

[PennySycamore]

10 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I think this is one of the biggest snafus with Christianity is this: so many sects with so many tenets. I forget the religious terminology for putting the words of Jesus into actions, and I know this concept is one of the most important tenets of some denominations of Christianity, but I have been told that for others, this is not the case. In some denominations, spreading the good news is more focused on talking about and studying the bible...those are the actions that are important. 

 

In the epistle of James, it is written that "faith without works is dead".

 St Francis of Assisi is supposed to have said "Preach the Gospel at all times.  If necessary, use words."

[Bethella]

5 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

You'd think the Josie and Jubilee events would make them more cautious, but no. Jebus.

Not to mention Courtney Enlow giving birth prematurely while on the China trip.

[choralcrusader8613]

Just now, Bethella said:

Not to mention Courtney Enlow giving birth prematurely while on the China trip.

That whole ordeal seemed like a nightmare. Jill and Jana both were helping her during that, and yet it still doesn't occur to her that something might go completely sideways, and then she's really screwed.