Joe 'n' Carlin Sittin' in a Tree?

[choralcrusader8613]

He was born in July of 1992 (I had to look that up, lol).

[Bad Wolf]

I think Joe went to Clown for a story line, and also FU to the critics. Then the show was cancelled, so there was no point spending all that money on him with no TLC income.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

I definitely think Joy was giving Lawson "the eye". And I also think that Lawson caught on with that and was having a bit of (fundie) fun, smiles and all.

I don't know these people and all the impressions I get are solely from what they show us publicly, YouTube, Instagram, etc. Somehow, I get the feeling that Lawson is in absolutely no rush to "settle down" anytime soon, he has way too much fun with his "career". 

I also get the feeling that Nathan is more than ready, but Ashley might be the one telling him to hold his horses...

[sockinshoe]

If Joy were an ordinary 18 year old, dating a 23 year old could be somewhat concerning. Post-college aged men should not be pursuing high school aged women. There's an imbalance of power there. I know Lawson has probably been infantilised for much of his life, but he'd have explicit power over anyone he married PLUS the implicit power of being an older guy pursuing a younger woman.

[Ursula]

I feel Joyless is too young to be married for several more years BUT the age difference between her and Lawson is pretty much the same as between Zach and Whitney and John and Alyssa.  Joyless turns 19 late this year so I could see her married off in a wintertime ceremony or spring 2017.  I hope not though

[WhyNotJulie]

On January 18, 2016 at 5:23 PM, tumblr said:

My mom was told to give up once she turned 35 with 12 years of trying and 0 successful pregnancies. I was born 6 months after she turned 36 and once she had already started applying to go back to school having completely lost hope. 

Sometimes not trying is what works.

This.

My mom tried desperately for 10 years with 0 successful pregnancies; when she finally was like "k fuck this, oh well", BAM she gets preggo and carries it (read: me) to term. Not trying seems to work quite splendidly.

[tumblr]

54 minutes ago, WhyNotJulie said:

This.

My mom tried desperately for 10 years with 0 successful pregnancies; when she finally was like "k fuck this, oh well", BAM she gets preggo and carries it (read: me) to term. Not trying seems to work quite splendidly.

I really wish there was a medical study about this because this isn't an uncommon phenomenon and I want to know why.  

[justmy2cents]

^^^^

There is infertility caused by blocked tubes or other medical conditions and then there is unexplained infertility where doctors don't know the cause of the infertility.  That's the type women may have when they find themselves pregnant after stopping their efforts to get pregnant.  I have met a few women who used IVF to have their first baby but became pregnant on their own the 2nd time around.  Something about the body already knowing what to do after the first one.  If there's a medical/physical condition preventing pregnancy no amount of relaxing will help.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

1 hour ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

I definitely think Joy was giving Lawson "the eye". And I also think that Lawson caught on with that and was having a bit of (fundie) fun, smiles and all.

I don't know these people and all the impressions I get are solely from what they show us publicly, YouTube, Instagram, etc. Somehow, I get the feeling that Lawson is in absolutely no rush to "settle down" anytime soon, he has way too much fun with his "career". 

I also get the feeling that Nathan is more than ready, but Ashley might be the one telling him to hold his horses...

I think Joy and Lawson, if there is something really there between them and it's not just a crush or something like that, wont enter into a courtship for at least another year. But, I imagine that Joy wouldn't be ready for the pressures of courtship until she's at least 21/22. I do agree that Lawson isn't likely to pressure her, either, since he seems pretty content in just continuing what he's been doing (which I see no harm in).

 

I do think that if they did end up together, they'd easily transition into fundie light. Joy would be wearing pants within a year, for sure. And I don't think she'd be pregnant immediately, either. I could see the two of them headed to the outskirts of Nashville and enjoying a somewhat normal life as young adults together.

1 hour ago, sockinshoe said:

If Joy were an ordinary 18 year old, dating a 23 year old could be somewhat concerning. Post-college aged men should not be pursuing high school aged women. There's an imbalance of power there. I know Lawson has probably been infantilised for much of his life, but he'd have explicit power over anyone he married PLUS the implicit power of being an older guy pursuing a younger woman.

1. Most people are either exiting high school or already in college by the time they turn 18.

2. There isn't THAT MUCH of an age gap. 5 years means nothing. I know people whose significant others are 8-10 years apart in age. 5 years is chump change, especially considering that it'll be next to no difference maturity wise in a handful of years. It's not like he's some creepy old guy who is old enough to be her dad and is going after her.

2 minutes ago, tumblr said:

I really wish there was a medical study about this because this isn't an uncommon phenomenon and I want to know why.  

Stress affects fertility/ability to carry to term, just like it affects your period (or lack there of). The more stressed you are about not conceiving or about previous miscarriages, the more likely you are to have fertility challenges. That's why there are so many people who conceive after they give up.

[sockinshoe]

I definitely think Joy was giving Lawson "the eye". And I also think that Lawson caught on with that and was having a bit of (fundie) fun, smiles and all.

I don't know these people and all the impressions I get are solely from what they show us publicly, YouTube, Instagram, etc. Somehow, I get the feeling that Lawson is in absolutely no rush to "settle down" anytime soon, he has way too much fun with his "career". 

I also get the feeling that Nathan is more than ready, but Ashley might be the one telling him to hold his horses...

I think Joy and Lawson, if there is something really there between them and it's not just a crush or something like that, wont enter into a courtship for at least another year. But, I imagine that Joy wouldn't be ready for the pressures of courtship until she's at least 21/22. I do agree that Lawson isn't likely to pressure her, either, since he seems pretty content in just continuing what he's been doing (which I see no harm in).

 

I do think that if they did end up together, they'd easily transition into fundie light. Joy would be wearing pants within a year, for sure. And I don't think she'd be pregnant immediately, either. I could see the two of them headed to the outskirts of Nashville and enjoying a somewhat normal life as young adults together.

If Joy were an ordinary 18 year old, dating a 23 year old could be somewhat concerning. Post-college aged men should not be pursuing high school aged women. There's an imbalance of power there. I know Lawson has probably been infantilised for much of his life, but he'd have explicit power over anyone he married PLUS the implicit power of being an older guy pursuing a younger woman.

1. Most people are either exiting high school or already in college by the time they turn 18.

2. There isn't THAT MUCH of an age gap. 5 years means nothing. I know people whose significant others are 8-10 years apart in age. 5 years is chump change, especially considering that it'll be next to no difference maturity wise in a handful of years. It's not like he's some creepy old guy who is old enough to be her dad and is going after her.

I really wish there was a medical study about this because this isn't an uncommon phenomenon and I want to know why.  

Stress affects fertility/ability to carry to term, just like it affects your period (or lack there of). The more stressed you are about not conceiving or about previous miscarriages, the more likely you are to have fertility challenges. That's why there are so many people who conceive after they give up.

My own parents are 11 years apart. I understand that age gaps eventually become pretty much meaningless. All of the guys I've seriously dated have been older than me. I'm college-aged now. If I were to date a guy 5 or so years older than me, it would be fine. 18 year old me dating a 23 year old would have caused some concern.

I'm not arguing against high school aged girls (or freshmen in college) dating older guys for petty respectability reasons. I'm arguing against it because I have seen so many friends be taken advantage of by older guys. I was in that position once: I was made to feel inexperienced, weak, and stupid. I was gaslighted constantly. I'm not saying all guys are like this. I'm saying that if a guy in his mid 20s is seeking out the company of young women, that should be looked at carefully. It's easy for 20 something guys to manipulate teenage girls: they make them feel attractive and important, they play on their insecurities, they play on experience and age as power, etc. Again: I am NOT saying Lawson is necessarily like this (I am not saying ANYONE is necessarily like this), I am saying saying that girls should be made aware of these things in order to protect themselves against mistreatment.

Eta: something went screwy with my quote.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

1 minute ago, sockinshoe said:

My own parents are 11 years apart. I understand that age gaps eventually become pretty much meaningless. All of the guys I've seriously dated have been older than me. I'm college-aged now. If I were to date a guy 5 or so years older than me, it would be fine. 18 year old me dating a 23 year old would have caused some concern.

I'm not arguing against high school aged girls (or freshmen in college) dating older guys for petty respectability reasons. I'm arguing against it because I have seen so many friends be taken advantage of by older guys. I was in that position once: I was made to feel inexperienced, weak, and stupid. I was gaslighted constantly. I'm not saying all guys are like this. I'm saying that if a guy in his mid 20s is seeking out the company of young women, that should be looked at carefully. It's easy for 20 something guys to manipulate teenage girls: they make them feel attractive and important, they play on their insecurities, they play on experience and age as power, etc. Again: I am NOT saying Lawson is necessarily like this (I am not saying ANYONE is necessarily like this), I am saying saying that girls should be made aware of these things in order to protect themselves against mistreatment.

The age of a guy has nothing to do with that. I've been abused by a majority of my ex boyfriends. The only only one who DIDN'T abuse me was the only one I dated who was older than me. Abuse happens because of personality, not age.

[Jucifer]

1 hour ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

The age of a guy has nothing to do with that. I've been abused by a majority of my ex boyfriends. The only only one who DIDN'T abuse me was the only one I dated who was older than me. Abuse happens because of personality, not age.

I'm sorry you had to go through this!  (((Hugs)))

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

1 hour ago, Jucifer said:

I'm sorry you had to go through this!  (((Hugs)))

Thanks. It is what it is, and at least I learned from my mistakes. Now I know how to avoid my own codependent behaviors and how to avoid anyone who is exhibiting codependency or control issues. =)

[sockinshoe]

My own parents are 11 years apart. I understand that age gaps eventually become pretty much meaningless. All of the guys I've seriously dated have been older than me. I'm college-aged now. If I were to date a guy 5 or so years older than me, it would be fine. 18 year old me dating a 23 year old would have caused some concern.

I'm not arguing against high school aged girls (or freshmen in college) dating older guys for petty respectability reasons. I'm arguing against it because I have seen so many friends be taken advantage of by older guys. I was in that position once: I was made to feel inexperienced, weak, and stupid. I was gaslighted constantly. I'm not saying all guys are like this. I'm saying that if a guy in his mid 20s is seeking out the company of young women, that should be looked at carefully. It's easy for 20 something guys to manipulate teenage girls: they make them feel attractive and important, they play on their insecurities, they play on experience and age as power, etc. Again: I am NOT saying Lawson is necessarily like this (I am not saying ANYONE is necessarily like this), I am saying saying that girls should be made aware of these things in order to protect themselves against mistreatment.

The age of a guy has nothing to do with that. I've been abused by a majority of my ex boyfriends. The only only one who DIDN'T abuse me was the only one I dated who was older than me. Abuse happens because of personality, not age.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

However, my point was never that ALL older partners are abusive (I have only had one of the older guys I've dated mistreat me). It was that the potential for inequality is elevated in some relationships with a wide age gap (5 years can be a lot when you're 18). This potential is exacerbated in Joy's case because she is a very sheltered young woman who, if she enters into a relationship with Lawson, will face considerable pressure to quickly move to engagement and then marriage. That marriage will necessarily entail an explicit imbalance of power (with her as the weaker partner) as well as an expectation of permanent cheerfulness (remember, no divorce or fighting in fundieland). Most 18 year olds are not dating the person they will marry. Most relationships between 18 and 23 year olds eventually run their courses. If the 23 year old was a good guy, good. If he wasn't, well at least she isn't shackled to him and dependent on him for the rest of her life.

[Sweet Fellowship]

I was with my ex-husband for 9 years and we didn't conceive even though most the time we didn't use protection. I'm now with a wonderful partner. Within 2 months of moving in with him, I fell pregnant. I was blown away by it. Absolutely shocked. I thought I was infertile. I suspect due to the bad marriage and having severe depression, I wasn't ovulating properly. My periods stopped for many years, too. The doctors had no idea why. I had blood tests done and my hormones checked. Everything was apparently "normal". When I left my ex, my periods gradually returned but my cycles were long.

The body is a fascinating yet strange thing!

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

11 hours ago, sockinshoe said:

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

However, my point was never that ALL older partners are abusive (I have only had one of the older guys I've dated mistreat me). It was that the potential for inequality is elevated in some relationships with a wide age gap (5 years can be a lot when you're 18). This potential is exacerbated in Joy's case because she is a very sheltered young woman who, if she enters into a relationship with Lawson, will face considerable pressure to quickly move to engagement and then marriage. That marriage will necessarily entail an explicit imbalance of power (with her as the weaker partner) as well as an expectation of permanent cheerfulness (remember, no divorce or fighting in fundieland). Most 18 year olds are not dating the person they will marry. Most relationships between 18 and 23 year olds eventually run their courses. If the 23 year old was a good guy, good. If he wasn't, well at least she isn't shackled to him and dependent on him for the rest of her life.

First of all, they've known each other for YEARS. They've grown up together. I'm pretty sure that Joy would know by now what kind of man Lawson is. It's not like this is some random guy who stalked her at a home school convention. And, I don't really think it's fair to say that most 18 year olds aren't dating the person they're going to marry. Of the people I've known or known of, about half the people who were dating at 18 did end up getting married to the person they were dating. That number is significantly higher for people who dated other people they were friends with for 2 or more years before they started dating.

And, frankly, it doesn't really matter how many people fail or succeed when talking about individual relationships. It only matters how they feel and whether they're willing to both put forth the effort.

Finally, I have yet to find a study that shows, after the age of majority, a gap of more than 2 years being at all a precursor to power/control/abuse, or at all negative when dealing with the younger partner (there are studies that show a minor dating someone over the age of majority, even if there's only 2 years difference between them, leads to risky sexual behaviors, multiple sex partners, higher rates of STDs, etc).

7 hours ago, Sweet Fellowship said:

I was with my ex-husband for 9 years and we didn't conceive even though most the time we didn't use protection. I'm now with a wonderful partner. Within 2 months of moving in with him, I fell pregnant. I was blown away by it. Absolutely shocked. I thought I was infertile. I suspect due to the bad marriage and having severe depression, I wasn't ovulating properly. My periods stopped for many years, too. The doctors had no idea why. I had blood tests done and my hormones checked. Everything was apparently "normal". When I left my ex, my periods gradually returned but my cycles were long.

The body is a fascinating yet strange thing!

I had something like that. My period while living with my second to last roommate was erratic, when I'm typically so regular that I know the exact hour that I'm going to start. In August, I was supposed to get my period in the first week or two. I didn't get it until the middle of the first week of September (around the same time that I moved out). I was completely out of my mind with stress and absolutely convinced that I was pregnant, despite the fact that every pregnancy test came up negative. Since I moved out, my period has gone back to being completely consistent.

[sockinshoe]

55 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

First of all, they've known each other for YEARS. They've grown up together. I'm pretty sure that Joy would know by now what kind of man Lawson is. It's not like this is some random guy who stalked her at a home school convention. And, I don't really think it's fair to say that most 18 year olds aren't dating the person they're going to marry. Of the people I've known or known of, about half the people who were dating at 18 did end up getting married to the person they were dating. That number is significantly higher for people who dated other people they were friends with for 2 or more years before they started dating.

And, frankly, it doesn't really matter how many people fail or succeed when talking about individual relationships. It only matters how they feel and whether they're willing to both put forth the effort.

Finally, I have yet to find a study that shows, after the age of majority, a gap of more than 2 years being at all a precursor to power/control/abuse, or at all negative when dealing with the younger partner (there are studies that show a minor dating someone over the age of majority, even if there's only 2 years difference between them, leads to risky sexual behaviors, multiple sex partners, higher rates of STDs, etc).

 

I take your point that Joy and Lawson have known each other for years. However, in all those years, they have never had the opportunity for one-on-one time. Let's assume the scenario where Joy is exceptionally mature for an 18 year-old Quiverfull kid and Lawson is an absolute prince charming. They still can't know how compatible they truly are. An ordinary 18 year old could go on a date or two with a 23 year old and slowly get to know them and decide whether or not this relationship is satisfying or worth pursuing. There's no dating in Quiverfull. If Joy and Lawson were to court, it'd be whole hog right off the bat; the expectation always is that the two people in the courtship will get engaged and married (usually within 1-2 years). They would still have no alone time. They  couldn't sit down and get to know each other, warts and all. They're forced to be always cheery, always on their best behaviour. It's easy to hide shitty personality traits when all your interactions are essentially performances for your families (Josh did it). 

If Joy and Lawson were ordinary people, they may date a while, hang out, meet each other's friends and family. They might go long term and get married eventually (although, again, most 18-year olds aren't currently dating their future spouse). In that case, their marriage would most likely be equal; there would be no transfer of authority; there would be no explicit imbalance of power. Joy would not be placed under Lawson's authority. Also, this wedding would not happen for a while (the average marrying age is 27 for women and 29 for men). Additionally, they would most likely have lived together (or at least lived away from home) before marriage.

As it stands now, Joy, aged just 18, would be essentially engaged to a man she's never spent a quarter of an hour alone with. And she'd never spend a moment alone with him until they drive off for their wedding night (which will be the first time they are physical in any capacity). That wedding would (based on most Duggar and Bates relationships) be when she's 20, possibly earlier. 

It should be surprising to no-one that Joy has been infantilized all her life. She (and her older sisters) should probably be out in the world, finding their own ways. Instead they are as beholden to daddy as they were at 12. Lawson, on the other hand, is pretty much doing his own thing now. In general, the Bates kids have more autonomy than the Duggars, and this especially true for the Bates boys. Joy is essentially a child (she's treated as one, except when it comes to running a household). Lawson is essentially an independent man who happens to still live at home. 5 years isn't a lot for most people, but, here, I'd say it is.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

42 minutes ago, sockinshoe said:

I take your point that Joy and Lawson have known each other for years. However, in all those years, they have never had the opportunity for one-on-one time. Let's assume the scenario where Joy is exceptionally mature for an 18 year-old Quiverfull kid and Lawson is an absolute prince charming. They still can't know how compatible they truly are. An ordinary 18 year old could go on a date or two with a 23 year old and slowly get to know them and decide whether or not this relationship is satisfying or worth pursuing. There's no dating in Quiverfull. If Joy and Lawson were to court, it'd be whole hog right off the bat; the expectation always is that the two people in the courtship will get engaged and married (usually within 1-2 years). They would still have no alone time. They  couldn't sit down and get to know each other, warts and all. They're forced to be always cheery, always on their best behaviour. It's easy to hide shitty personality traits when all your interactions are essentially performances for your families (Josh did it). 

If Joy and Lawson were ordinary people, they may date a while, hang out, meet each other's friends and family. They might go long term and get married eventually (although, again, most 18-year olds aren't currently dating their future spouse). In that case, their marriage would most likely be equal; there would be no transfer of authority; there would be no explicit imbalance of power. Joy would not be placed under Lawson's authority. Also, this wedding would not happen for a while (the average marrying age is 27 for women and 29 for men). Additionally, they would most likely have lived together (or at least lived away from home) before marriage.

As it stands now, Joy, aged just 18, would be essentially engaged to a man she's never spent a quarter of an hour alone with. And she'd never spend a moment alone with him until they drive off for their wedding night (which will be the first time they are physical in any capacity). That wedding would (based on most Duggar and Bates relationships) be when she's 20, possibly earlier. 

It should be surprising to no-one that Joy has been infantilized all her life. She (and her older sisters) should probably be out in the world, finding their own ways. Instead they are as beholden to daddy as they were at 12. Lawson, on the other hand, is pretty much doing his own thing now. In general, the Bates kids have more autonomy than the Duggars, and this especially true for the Bates boys. Joy is essentially a child (she's treated as one, except when it comes to running a household). Lawson is essentially an independent man who happens to still live at home. 5 years isn't a lot for most people, but, here, I'd say it is.

Joy has traveled with Lawson and his siblings and Lawson with her siblings without parental supervision. They've known each other since they were children. She spends large amounts of time with his family at his house, and he spends almost as much of time with her family at her house. Before Joy was old enough to be trained as a sister mom, she spent the majority of her time with the boys, which meant hanging out with him whenever he was around. Even now, Joy spends more of her time with the boys than she does with the girls, which probably translates to a lot of time with him. And, honestly, if she doesn't know the kind of person he is by now, she never will.

Again, this isn't like a normal courtship where they're practically, or actually, strangers. She spends copious amounts of time with the Bates family and he spends copious amounts of time with the Duggar family. I mean, for god sakes, she's the only Duggar (and I think the only non-family member) to ever get a birthday shout out from the Bates on their social media.

[sockinshoe]

1 minute ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

Joy has traveled with Lawson and his siblings and Lawson with her siblings without parental supervision. They've known each other since they were children. She spends large amounts of time with his family at his house, and he spends almost as much of time with her family at her house. Before Joy was old enough to be trained as a sister mom, she spent the majority of her time with the boys, which meant hanging out with him whenever he was around. Even now, Joy spends more of her time with the boys than she does with the girls, which probably translates to a lot of time with him. And, honestly, if she doesn't know the kind of person he is by now, she never will.

Again, this isn't like a normal courtship where they're practically, or actually, strangers. She spends copious amounts of time with the Bates family and he spends copious amounts of time with the Duggar family. I mean, for god sakes, she's the only Duggar (and I think the only non-family member) to ever get a birthday shout out from the Bates on their social media.

Great, they know each other. They have been family friends for a really long time. That still doesn't account for most of what I've said. They've never been alone together. Romantic feelings (IF they exist) would not be allowed to develop slowly. There would be no taking time. It's basically marriage or nothing. Yes, Joy spent most of her childhood around boys, but you underestimate the effect and extent of gender roles in this world. She is no longer allowed to be around boys. From the time she could walk, she has been groomed to being a wife and mother. 

Joy has no education, no work training, nothing. She would be utterly dependent on the whims of Lawson. He's probably a very pleasant guy. But excuse me for not flipping my lid at the thought of a literal teenage being handed off as chattel to a man in his mid 20s. He would be in control of her whereabouts, her emotions, her activities, and her sex life. Joy's mother has reared her to always acquiesce to every whim of her husband. Lawson would expect to have sex with Joy, even if she's not into it. He'd expect her to pop out baby after baby. He'd expect her to never question him, never disagree, never express anything but sunshine and rainbows. How is any of that healthy or good or fair to Joy?

Lawson is probably too old for Joy, if they were ordinary kids. He's definitely too old in a culture where a man has total control over his wife, where a naive teenager can go from being daddy's little girl to a man's sexual object within a literal day. 

[19 cats and counting]

Have they spent time alone together?  No?  But have Josh and Anna, Jill and Derick, or Jessa and Ben spent time alone together before marriage?  No.  

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

24 minutes ago, sockinshoe said:

Great, they know each other. They have been family friends for a really long time. That still doesn't account for most of what I've said. They've never been alone together. Romantic feelings (IF they exist) would not be allowed to develop slowly. There would be no taking time. It's basically marriage or nothing. Yes, Joy spent most of her childhood around boys, but you underestimate the effect and extent of gender roles in this world. She is no longer allowed to be around boys. From the time she could walk, she has been groomed to being a wife and mother. 

Joy has no education, no work training, nothing. She would be utterly dependent on the whims of Lawson. He's probably a very pleasant guy. But excuse me for not flipping my lid at the thought of a literal teenage being handed off as chattel to a man in his mid 20s. He would be in control of her whereabouts, her emotions, her activities, and her sex life. Joy's mother has reared her to always acquiesce to every whim of her husband. Lawson would expect to have sex with Joy, even if she's not into it. He'd expect her to pop out baby after baby. He'd expect her to never question him, never disagree, never express anything but sunshine and rainbows. How is any of that healthy or good or fair to Joy?

Lawson is probably too old for Joy, if they were ordinary kids. He's definitely too old in a culture where a man has total control over his wife, where a naive teenager can go from being daddy's little girl to a man's sexual object within a literal day. 

First of all, her showing signs of having a crush on him DOES NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE mean she's handcuffed to him for life. Second, neither Joy or Lawson has expressed interest in immediately settling down, so even if there was something going on between them, she's not going to be "handcuffed to him when she's a literal teenager." Third, I really doubt that her parents are going to have her going and getting married before she's 20, especially after the last year of scandals AND how people reacted to Josiah's courtship. Finally, there ISN'T a courtship announcement, so none of your flipping your shit makes any sense. It's just a bunch of us over here talking about how they were eyeing each other. That's hardly the end of the world.

There rest of your rant is ridiculous. He is NOT too old for her. He's 5 years older. My god, you're acting like he's 40.

ETA: I'm curious if you lose your shit like this over Alyssa. If I remember correctly, there are 5-ish years between her and her husband, and she was married at 19.

[Snarkangel Gabriel]

10 hours ago, Sweet Fellowship said:

I was with my ex-husband for 9 years and we didn't conceive even though most the time we didn't use protection. I'm now with a wonderful partner. Within 2 months of moving in with him, I fell pregnant. I was blown away by it. Absolutely shocked. I thought I was infertile. I suspect due to the bad marriage and having severe depression, I wasn't ovulating properly. My periods stopped for many years, too. The doctors had no idea why. I had blood tests done and my hormones checked. Everything was apparently "normal". When I left my ex, my periods gradually returned but my cycles were long.

The body is a fascinating yet strange thing!

This is interesting but the body is indeed strange and fascinating. I like history and Adeliza of Louvain, second wife of England's Henry I, was famously stressed out about her "failure" to conceive - Henry had several children by his first marriage and otherwise but no legitimate male (this was in the 12th century when this mattered!) heir survived - so the pressure was on Adeliza. She was married to Henry nearly 15 years and then went into a convent for 3 years. She emerged to remarry - and have 7 children with her second husband, all in her, post-35 years!  

[tumblr]

So I will state my bias plainly here, I am about 6 months older than Joy Anna and have dated people 5+ years a head of me before. 

That said, I don't see the difference between these two courting and literally any other partnership from these families. Alyssa and John have about the same age difference and if Joy Anna and Lawson do court in the next year the relationship would have the same starting age if I am not mistaken. 

I don't think J&M would let Joy Anna go anytime soon though, because it would likely bring them a lot of bad PR, even if these two seem entertaining enough to actually watch court week to week. 

[sockinshoe]

8 minutes ago, DuggarsTheEndIsNear said:

First of all, her showing signs of having a crush on him DOES NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE mean she's handcuffed to him for life. Second, neither Joy or Lawson has expressed interest in immediately settling down, so even if there was something going on between them, she's not going to be "handcuffed to him when she's a literal teenager." Third, I really doubt that her parents are going to have her going and getting married before she's 20, especially after the last year of scandals AND how people reacted to Josiah's courtship. Finally, there ISN'T a courtship announcement, so none of your flipping your shit makes any sense. It's just a bunch of us over here talking about how they were eyeing each other. That's hardly the end of the world.

There rest of your rant is ridiculous. He is NOT too old for her. He's 5 years older. My god, you're acting like he's 40.

First, you're right. Her looking at him means nothing. We're extrapolating that she has a crush. She may very well not. However, if they were to enter into a courtship, which seems to be what people here are hoping for, she'd most likely end up marrying him (which, in these circles, means complete subservience for life). 

Second, essentially, see above. However, if they were to enter into a romantic relationship (which, again, is what people are rooting for), it would all proceed fairly quickly. This is mostly due to the total prohibition on alone time/physical contact before marriage. So, they'd be rushing to get to a point where they could have sexual relations. Which, as has been noted many times on this very forum, is a terrible idea.

Third, her parents married her sister Jessa off to an unemployed teenager. Josh married Anna months after her 20th birthday because HER father had expressed the wish that she not marry before 20. Joy's own parents were teens when they married (her mother was still a minor). The Bateses saw Alyssa married at barely 20, iirc. 

Finally, my "flipping my shit", as you so eloquently put it, is predicated on bewilderment that FJ-ites would be hoping for another undereducated young woman to be married off to a headship. You say that you're just noting them looking at each other. But that very quickly becomes hoping for a courtship and a wedding and babies. It's nowhere near the end of the world. I just find it a bit distasteful that we would want Joy married off.

Regarding the age gap, you and I seem to disagree. On paper, 5 years at 18 may not seem like a big deal (to me, it would have been), however once you add all the other stuff (the patriarchal cult) it is a pretty big gulf for two people at totally different points in their lives. If she has a crush on him, that's fine. I had crushes on boys way older than me. If the crush is returned and they begin courting, that's a problem. She's barely legal, treated like a child, and totally unempowered. She's kept naive and uneducated. Sure, he lives at home, but he doesn't share a room with all his little siblings; he has work experience, financial independence, and a lot more autonomy than she has ever experienced. Eyeing each other is fine. "Dating with a purpose" to get married in the next few years worries me.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

6 minutes ago, sockinshoe said:

First, you're right. Her looking at him means nothing. We're extrapolating that she has a crush. She may very well not. However, if they were to enter into a courtship, which seems to be what people here are hoping for, she'd most likely end up marrying him (which, in these circles, means complete subservience for life). 

Second, essentially, see above. However, if they were to enter into a romantic relationship (which, again, is what people are rooting for), it would all proceed fairly quickly. This is mostly due to the total prohibition on alone time/physical contact before marriage. So, they'd be rushing to get to a point where they could have sexual relations. Which, as has been noted many times on this very forum, is a terrible idea.

Third, her parents married her sister Jessa off to an unemployed teenager. Josh married Anna months after her 20th birthday because HER father had expressed the wish that she not marry before 20. Joy's own parents were teens when they married (her mother was still a minor). The Bateses saw Alyssa married at barely 20, iirc. 

Finally, my "flipping my shit", as you so eloquently put it, is predicated on bewilderment that FJ-ites would be hoping for another undereducated young woman to be married off to a headship. You say that you're just noting them looking at each other. But that very quickly becomes hoping for a courtship and a wedding and babies. It's nowhere near the end of the world. I just find it a bit distasteful that we would want Joy married off.

Regarding the age gap, you and I seem to disagree. On paper, 5 years at 18 may not seem like a big deal (to me, it would have been), however once you add all the other stuff (the patriarchal cult) it is a pretty big gulf for two people at totally different points in their lives. If she has a crush on him, that's fine. I had crushes on boys way older than me. If the crush is returned and they begin courting, that's a problem. She's barely legal, treated like a child, and totally unempowered. She's kept naive and uneducated. Sure, he lives at home, but he doesn't share a room with all his little siblings; he has work experience, financial independence, and a lot more autonomy than she has ever experienced. Eyeing each other is fine. "Dating with a purpose" to get married in the next few years worries me.

His age has nothing to do with their cult. Nor would it make her more likely to be abused by him. Regardless of who she marries, IF she stays in the cult (and that's an if because we have no idea how Joy or her future husband feels/would feel about staying in the cult after marriage), he's going to be the headship.

As far as rooting for it, Joy is going to get married one day. It's unlikely that she's going to be like Jana and be willing to stay in her parent's house under their headship until her mid to late twenties or later. Marrying a Bates boy would actually probably be Joy's best bet when it comes to the contacts she has. Especially if that Bates boy is Lawson, who has shown initiative, a work ethic that has brought in enough money that his parents relied on him when they couldn't make ends meet, a love of traveling, a love of music which could bring him and his future wife a great deal of experiences they'd otherwise have been denied, etc.