What bugs you about the Duggars

[freealljs]

1. How Jim Boob and Michelle have trashed Jim Boob's father in the press

2. MIchelle acting like she is an authority on overpopulation and birth control

3. Not allowing their kids any normalcy that they were allowed as children (education with other aged children, activities, outings, etc)

4. The baby voice of Michelle. Maybe it turns Jim Boob on in the bedroom, but the rest of the world (and I argue, even the J'kids) can't stand it. Plus, that baby voice does not make her a better parent, despite what she may think.

5. They (Boob and Michelle, Josh) think that most of America are too stupid to use the internet to see when they have blatantly lied about things

6. Jim Boob spending 250K on a Senatorial campaign and thousands of dollars on big boy toys, but hasn't put any money aside for their college educations (College Minus does not count)

7. Telling the world that the J'slaves choose to be there

8. Forcing or guilting the J'slaves to stay

9. Josh Duggar. Need I say more?

10. The whole dress code issue, with girls wearing dresses and skirts and flip-flops and boys wearing pants.

11. Ban on frontal hugs

12. Not going to a mainstream church

13. Using a miscarriage for publicity

14. Michelle telling everyone else we've been grieving wrong

15. The girls all have long hair, because their daddy likes it that way.

16. Since I studied Math, the fact that none of the J'slaves and Josh probably know basic algebra or calculus.

17. That they never acknowledge their involvement with Gothard

18. That they have been supporting a Catholic for president, but I seriously doubt they'll attend Communion or Mass or a basic service out of respect for Frothy's religious beliefs.

19. JIm Boob pimping out his kids for the dollar God, and then acting like he is so "Godly". Ugh

[lilwriter85]

Sorry that I wasn't clear. It was exactly these people that I meant: the run-of-the-mill TLC viewer or reader of their blog (obviously has access to cable TV and/or internet) who doesn't know the batshit crazy philosophy behind it all, yet defends what a good, happy family they are. I also meant the subset of people who could get sucked into some of the dangerous beliefs that don't have anything to do with Gothard/QF, such as the environmental/overpopulation issues, because they only see the shiny veneer.

Ok I get what you mean. I agree with your description of the some viewers who don't how batshit crazy the Duggars or Gothard are. Those types of viewers just always see the family acting happy and perfect. Another thing that irks me about the Duggar defenders is when they use the whole "they aren't on government assistance" defense. Sure the Duggars have never been on government assistance, but they have needed help from others over the years. They used to depend on clothing and food donations from the church they used to attend and TLC has helped them out in several ways.

Another thing that bugs me about the Duggars is their constant bragging over being debt free. I'm happy for people that debt free, but the Duggars are so smug about it. They act like they are saints because they don't have credit cards.

[lilwriter85]

1. How Jim Boob and Michelle have trashed Jim Boob's father in the press

2. MIchelle acting like she is an authority on overpopulation and birth control

3. Not allowing their kids any normalcy that they were allowed as children (education with other aged children, activities, outings, etc)

4. The baby voice of Michelle. Maybe it turns Jim Boob on in the bedroom, but the rest of the world (and I argue, even the J'kids) can't stand it. Plus, that baby voice does not make her a better parent, despite what she may think.

5. They (Boob and Michelle, Josh) think that most of America are too stupid to use the internet to see when they have blatantly lied about things

6. Jim Boob spending 250K on a Senatorial campaign and thousands of dollars on big boy toys, but hasn't put any money aside for their college educations (College Minus does not count)

7. Telling the world that the J'slaves choose to be there

8. Forcing or guilting the J'slaves to stay

9. Josh Duggar. Need I say more?

10. The whole dress code issue, with girls wearing dresses and skirts and flip-flops and boys wearing pants.

11. Ban on frontal hugs

12. Not going to a mainstream church

13. Using a miscarriage for publicity

14. Michelle telling everyone else we've been grieving wrong

15. The girls all have long hair, because their daddy likes it that way.

16. Since I studied Math, the fact that none of the J'slaves and Josh probably know basic algebra or calculus.

17. That they never acknowledge their involvement with Gothard

18. That they have been supporting a Catholic for president, but I seriously doubt they'll attend Communion or Mass or a basic service out of respect for Frothy's religious beliefs.

19. JIm Boob pimping out his kids for the dollar God, and then acting like he is so "Godly". Ugh

The Duggars attended a mainstream church years ago. The flip flops thing is just annoying and I hate how those girls wear flip flops in possibly dangerous situations.

Michelle trying to act like a fucking expert on grief annoyed the fuck out of me. People are in different grieving situations. My parents lost a son 12 years ago. My brother was 26 and he died in a shooting accident. If someone like Michelle who had a miscarriage tried to tell them how to grieve, they would tell her to fuck off and that their situation is different.

[chiccy]

Another thing I hate is that Anna drives a Hummer. I know I should "love the sinners, hate the sin," but really, those cars just make me hate the sinners. And her stupid cloth-diaper justification makes it all the worse.

[Renting with Raggles]

I do not know how far the exposure to the grittier side of humanity that is a political campaign will take them, but yes, I DO think that it will benefit the kids in a significant way. It is giving them enough information to question the truth of the insular world in which they have always lived. They are certainly getting a civics lesson in action as they maneuver through the political process. How many people get to actually live history by participating in it? This is real hands on learning. Insanitorum is constantly heckled and glitterbomged and questioned. I stand by my feeling that partipating in an election is an educational experience. I did it (For Bill Clinton). My kids did it for various candidiates. One of my children is now involved in politics. Is it better to learn ow politicians get elected by reading a book? By reading fox news? Or by living it?

I have no doubt that most children would benefit from hands-on participation with a political campaign over a dull civics course, and it certainly sounds like your children took advantage of their educational experience. But your children used experience as a springboard for further study, involvement and thought. My problem with the Duggars is that they seem to be incapable of taking such hands-on educational opportunities and using them for real learning, the way your kids did. Questions and glitter-bombing can provoke critical thought and discussion, or they can be explained away with a glib "well, those mean questioning folks just don't love Jesus."

The world tour didn't catalyse an interest in geography or history, the Space Camp didn't spark an interest in science, while the excursions to sites of natural beauty/ significance haven't planted the seeds for inquiry in environmental studies (not even creationist non-science!) The mission trips have just barely inspired a few of the older children to learn some Spanish. I just have this suspicion that the campaign will be another opportunity wasted.

[Anise]

I have no doubt that most children would benefit from hands-on participation with a political campaign over a dull civics course, and it certainly sounds like your children took advantage of their educational experience. But your children used experience as a springboard for further study, involvement and thought. My problem with the Duggars is that they seem to be incapable of taking such hands-on educational opportunities and using them for real learning, the way your kids did. Questions and glitter-bombing can provoke critical thought and discussion, or they can be explained away with a glib "well, those mean questioning folks just don't love Jesus."

The world tour didn't catalyse an interest in geography or history, the Space Camp didn't spark an interest in science, while the excursions to sites of natural beauty/ significance haven't planted the seeds for inquiry in environmental studies (not even creationist non-science!) The mission trips have just barely inspired a few of the older children to learn some Spanish. I just have this suspicion that the campaign will be another opportunity wasted.

That's a good point, and right now, I'm questioning why these experiences have not sparked interest or curiosity. It seems like part of a larger pattern of little expression of individuality. There seems to be a mindset of giving up their identity to the larger group identity.

[bubbabearzle]

I apologize I have been up for the last 20 hours with sick kids. I will remember to check next time

Ugh, sorry to hear that - it's the worst when you really want to make them feel better right away. Hope they feel better soon!

[Renting with Raggles]

My apologies for snipping the vast majority of this quote, as I found it well reasoned & I agreed with many points... but what jumped out at me was what I first thought was a typo, and wouldn't normally point out, because I understand that people are typing quickly, or are tired, or whatever, but after a minute, I started to think that it was intentional...

If it was intentional, I say :clap:

This was intentional, but there are a million other typos because I am in bed with a cold! On the Qing Ming holidays! :cry: :violin: :roll:

[Renting with Raggles]

That's a good point, and right now, I'm questioning why these experiences have not sparked interest or curiosity. It seems like part of a larger pattern of little expression of individuality. There seems to be a mindset of giving up their identity to the larger group identity.

I wonder if the parents actively discourage their children following an interest or whether it's a natural consequence of the Gothard-designed 'educational' system.

[chiccy]

The world tour didn't catalyse an interest in geography or history, the Space Camp didn't spark an interest in science, while the excursions to sites of natural beauty/ significance haven't planted the seeds for inquiry in environmental studies (not even creationist non-science!) The mission trips have just barely inspired a few of the older children to learn some Spanish. I just have this suspicion that the campaign will be another opportunity wasted.

This. Honestly, maybe I'm old-school, but I really think this "experiential" learning should be reserved for special occasions. It should not be the general modus operandi of instruction. There are some things--in fact, a lot of things--you do have to learn in a book. Participating in a political campaign is not going to help you pass the Government AP test. Going to an amusement park and riding the rollercoasters will not (as one unschooling parent believed) teach your kids physics. The way to learn intellectually rigorous subjects is by reading about them, hearing about them, writing about them, and drilling sample problems. All of these things have to be done sitting down, in a chair, in your home or at the library. "Life experience" is valuable, but it happens naturally--it doesn't need to be a part of school.

Is it better to learn ow politicians get elected by reading a book? By reading fox news? Or by living it?

I would never suggest that "reading" Fox news (or watching Fox news, or anything else on television for that matter) is a substitute for actual book-learning. I feel exactly the same about so-called "life learning." Sure, you might learn a thing or two about the political process by participating in a campaign, but you could learn the same things much faster--plus many other things--by studying them seriously. The problem with "life learning" is that it's such a diluted, inefficient way to learn actual material. And as far as applying the material, you are doing that by living it, but in a much less intellectually challenging way than you would by writing analytical essays or papers in a formal academic context. Education is not just about learning material, but also giving your brain a good workout to stretch it and keep it strong. Reading, writing, and problems do that; life experiences are beneficial in other ways, but don't provide effective mental challenge.

[muffynbear]

What bugs me about the Duggars? Well, I could probably write a novel!

1) The fact that they worship Gothard, but refuse to mention him on the show or in the mainstream media. If they're so proud of their beliefs, why not defend them to the press? Why all the secrecy? WHAT ARE THEY HIDING?

2) I hate the fact that they have an industrial dish washer, but continue to use styrofoam and paper plates whenever they eat.

3) Their willful ignorance of just.about.anything.

4) Their lack of tolerance of other cultures/religions.

5) Their belief system poses a threat to ME and other women i.e. Gothard, patriarchal society.

6) The fact that they drive gas guzzling vehicles.

7) Their blatant disregard for the environment by having as many babies as possible.

8) The whole "birth control causes miscarriages" bullshit that they spew every second.

9) Overpopulation is a myth :roll: .

10) Jim Bob's helmut hair and Michelle's mullet.

11) Smuggar.

12) The fact that Jim Bob has chosen a "one size fits all" lifestyle for his family. Everyone eats the same slop, everyone dresses alike, everyone gets the same piss poor education. No one is treated like an individual.

Like I said, I could go on and on.

[Anise]

This. Honestly, maybe I'm old-school, but I really think this "experiential" learning should be reserved for special occasions. It should not be the general modus operandi of instruction. There are some things--in fact, a lot of things--you do have to learn in a book. Participating in a political campaign is not going to help you pass the Government AP test. Going to an amusement park and riding the rollercoasters will not (as one unschooling parent believed) teach your kids physics. The way to learn intellectually rigorous subjects is by reading about them, hearing about them, writing about them, and drilling sample problems. All of these things have to be done sitting down, in a chair, in your home or at the library. "Life experience" is valuable, but it happens naturally--it doesn't need to be a part of school.

I both agree and disagree with this viewpoint. As part of the schooling process, children learn to relate to materials in specific ways which certainly involve facts, narratives, and analysis. And to prepare for tests or further education, children have to rely on that way of relating to the material. And what is missing from the Duggar children's experience at these trips is a lack of preparation. None of us would be able to go to a Tibetan Snow Lion Dance and be able to understand the imagery or context without previous study, and neither can they get much out of trips to Europe and science museums.

However, I do think arranged experiences outside of academic sources helps consolidate ideas and make the application of them more real and pressing for students.

[Tator Tot Tubby]

1 hair..... they've basically all got bad hair from the mullet to the helmet to the crunchy ramen to the fake pigtails.... none of it's good

2 The secrecy. I don't understand why they don't just come out and admit to what they really are about.

3 The fact that they had me fooled for years

4 the fact that 19 innocent children had their lives ruined and their potential destroyed because two nut jobs are good at making babies.

[lilith]

The thing that truly bothers me about the Duggars is how sure they are that their lifestyle is the one true way, for all that they pay lip service to everything being a "personal conviction" and not judging.

I think they 100% believe that their beliefs and lifestyle are the ideal, and that their happiness (and I do think JimBob and Michelle are sincerely happy) is a reward for living by their and Gothard's restrictive rules. Even the Josie saga reenforces it - she was born with problems, but in their eyes God saved her cause they are so special and obedient.

The reason that their sincerity scares me so much is cause it makes them feel justified in restricting their children and forcing them into the mold their parents have cast. I think they genuinely love their kids, and want what they think is best for them - and they are sure that what is best for them is isolating them and limiting their exposure to the real world and ideas. Even if it hurts the kids, they seem to believe it is short term pain and a small price to pay for their salvation.

By their own standards they have been incredibly successful - financially comfortable, no debt, role models through their "ministry", 19 beautiful children who all appear to be towing the party line, a son who is extending all their ideals to the next generation. And I think they see all that as a reward, which further justifies the restrictive life and isolation.

And people see that and think that if they follow the rules and recipe they too will be "blessed". Not seeing that Michelle and JimBob had the benefits of a secular education and upbringing, that JimBob got a substantial inheritance, but if it was shared among 19 it wouldn't have been a significant sum. That they have been incredibly lucky to have had so many healthy kids. That family, church, community and TLC support are the only thing that have enabled them to succeed to this level. That they got really lucky with cheap real estate in the late 80s and the price boom of the 90s. That they had four years to establish themselves while Michelle took birth control before the responsibilities and expenses of parenthood came along. But no, the message they send is that all you need to do is have "faith" and follow Gothard's rules for life. And I think that is very very dangerous. Especially as they have a political agenda of wanting those rules to be supported by the government.

[JesusFightClub]

I map fundies in my head across to politics. So while it doesn't match exactly, the Gothardism is the main problem IMO.

I kind of struggle to express what I mean here, so I hope this makes sense. There are two political groups/parties I can think of which mixed together make Gothardism. One was larger but women were sexually abused within it. One was tiny but you would be closely watched for any deviation, and punished.

And that is what bugs me re the Duggars. They put a happy smiley face on something which most people, if they knew, would regard as actively dangerous.

[lilith]

And that is what bugs me re the Duggars. They put a happy smiley face on something which most people, if they knew, would regard as actively dangerous.

That's part of what I was trying to express in the rambling post above.

[Sola]

1. Smuggar

2. The way they SOTDRT

3. How they treat Joy; square peg, round hole

4. That they STILL get handouts

5. How they support Gothardism

6. How they treat Josie; she should not have been dragged around the world.

7. Santorum

8. The lack of critical thinking.

9. The lies.

10. They WILL try for more children

11. The way the howler monkeys are showing in their behaviour just how much parental attention they really get.

12. DimBulb; whenever I see his face these days I just want to bitch slap him.

13. J'Uterus; your husband is not a fucking god, stop staring at him as though he is.

14. Anna; you are not J'Uterus V1.2

15. They have two industrial dishwashers and many pairs of hands, yet STILL use disposable plates and cutlery

16. The way they leech freebies, everywhere

17. DuggarTime

18. J'Chelle's sing song baby voice; it's like nails down a blackboard

19. Sm'Anna's sing song full of 'erm', 'err' and 'well' baby voice, that is also like nails down a blackboard

20. DimBulb's stupidity; yes your children can get shingles you ignorant clot.

21. Smooching; Yes we get it that you still have sex. You do not have to demonstrate this by slavering all over each others faces. Smuggar and Sm'Anna, this goes for you too. Get a room.

[Guest LilaFowler]

*That they aren't allowed to be sexual beings until the day they are married.

*That they don't have a choice in how to live their lives wiouthout getting shunned by their parents.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I just want to clarify my statements about defending the participation in the Frothy campaign as an educational exercise. The thing that I am saying is the the poster who said that it was a waste of time to keep them from their studies in order to be a part of the campaign is not really accurate. Compared to TSOTDRT, it provides far more opotunities for learning.

Whether your children go to public, private, or homeschool, didactic studies are greatly enhanced by adding some hands on applications.

The Duggar children have been raised in a world so narrow and sheltered. Even in the context of the reality show, JB and M have called the shots. They simply cannot call the shots in a presidential campaign (I just threw up in my mouth saying presidential while referring to Santorum). By default, this is the most mind expanding expreience those kids have ever had.

What bugs me the most about the Duggar/ATI lifestyle is the unfairness to the children to not give them skills to live.It is like the ancient Chinese who would bind the feet of little girls so that their feet would remain small. They crippled their little girls and the ATI lifestyle is crippling those children. Pretty faces and plastered smiles only take a person so far. The lure of fame has given these kids a light shining in their window and each time the crack in the walls gets larger, opportunity grows.

[apple1]

... Gothardism is the main problem IMO...They put a happy smiley face on something which most people, if they knew, would regard as actively dangerous.

IMO This is it, in a nutshell. Everything else (and I agree with a lot of the comments in this thread) spins off the Gothardism.

Most US citizens have never even heard of Gothard, yet have NO CLUE how actively dangerous Gothard is, nor do they understand how much influence he has already had in the US (also some in other countries).

Read about it here...

http://www.rickross.com/reference/gotha ... ard16.html

[delilahdog11]

The thing that truly bothers me about the Duggars is how sure they are that their lifestyle is the one true way, for all that they pay lip service to everything being a "personal conviction" and not judging.

I think they 100% believe that their beliefs and lifestyle are the ideal, and that their happiness (and I do think JimBob and Michelle are sincerely happy) is a reward for living by their and Gothard's restrictive rules. Even the Josie saga reenforces it - she was born with problems, but in their eyes God saved her cause they are so special and obedient.

The reason that their sincerity scares me so much is cause it makes them feel justified in restricting their children and forcing them into the mold their parents have cast. I think they genuinely love their kids, and want what they think is best for them - and they are sure that what is best for them is isolating them and limiting their exposure to the real world and ideas. Even if it hurts the kids, they seem to believe it is short term pain and a small price to pay for their salvation.

By their own standards they have been incredibly successful - financially comfortable, no debt, role models through their "ministry", 19 beautiful children who all appear to be towing the party line, a son who is extending all their ideals to the next generation. And I think they see all that as a reward, which further justifies the restrictive life and isolation.

And people see that and think that if they follow the rules and recipe they too will be "blessed". Not seeing that Michelle and JimBob had the benefits of a secular education and upbringing, that JimBob got a substantial inheritance, but if it was shared among 19 it wouldn't have been a significant sum. That they have been incredibly lucky to have had so many healthy kids. That family, church, community and TLC support are the only thing that have enabled them to succeed to this level. That they got really lucky with cheap real estate in the late 80s and the price boom of the 90s. That they had four years to establish themselves while Michelle took birth control before the responsibilities and expenses of parenthood came along. But no, the message they send is that all you need to do is have "faith" and follow Gothard's rules for life. And I think that is very very dangerous. Especially as they have a political agenda of wanting those rules to be supported by the government.

QFT

[3 ring circus]

1. Smuggar

2. The way they SOTDRT

3. How they treat Joy; square peg, round hole

4. That they STILL get handouts

5. How they support Gothardism

6. How they treat Josie; she should not have been dragged around the world.

7. Santorum

8. The lack of critical thinking.

9. The lies.

10. They WILL try for more children

11. The way the howler monkeys are showing in their behaviour just how much parental attention they really get.

12. DimBulb; whenever I see his face these days I just want to bitch slap him.

13. J'Uterus; your husband is not a fucking god, stop staring at him as though he is.

14. Anna; you are not J'Uterus V1.2

15. They have two industrial dishwashers and many pairs of hands, yet STILL use disposable plates and cutlery

16. The way they leech freebies, everywhere

17. DuggarTime

18. J'Chelle's sing song baby voice; it's like nails down a blackboard

19. Sm'Anna's sing song full of 'erm', 'err' and 'well' baby voice, that is also like nails down a blackboard

20. DimBulb's stupidity; yes your children can get shingles you ignorant clot.

21. Smooching; Yes we get it that you still have sex. You do not have to demonstrate this by slavering all over each others faces. Smuggar and Sm'Anna, this goes for you too. Get a room.

This exactly!

[ilovetchotchkes]

Their smug demeanor.

The way the girls are forced to be mothers to their younger siblings.

The fact that people fall all over themselves adoring them and have no idea how dangerous they are....

I could go on for hours but i've got a LOT of stuff to do this morning.

[jaynie]

The thing that bugs me most about them is the same thing that bugs me most about all fundie families. I think their kids deserve better. I find it seriously distressing that parents have that kind of power to ruin their children's live by not educating them, by limiting their exposure to the outside world, by keeping them under such strict control that even if any of them do break out (and I hope some do) it's going to be extremely difficult for them to adjust and make a life for themselves. I hate that they're forcing their kids into cookie-cutter roles when so many of them would clearly be happier outside that lifestyle. It's pretty obvious neither Joy nor Jessa are terribly maternal, and I think both would be quite a bit happier / less bitchy if they had expectations in life other than "wife-and-mother" -- and I think Josiah would be less miserable if he had expectations in life other than "slaving for brothers". I hate that Joy/Josiah and Hannie/Jackson are discouraged from being friends just because of their differing x/y chromosomes, and it's ridiculous the way JB and Michelle are constantly trying to make Joy out to be a little lady when it's patently obvious she has no interest in those "ladylike" things (not to mention the way JB seems to bully Josiah). It bothers me that Jackson isn't allowed to dance because supposedly every member of that family has come to the independent conclusion that dancing is wrong. Most of those kids could have had pretty good lives if their parents didn't insist on treating them identically instead of as individuals, and I find that seriously depressing.

[Swamptribe]

To put it simply, what bugs me about the Duggars is their hypocrisy. How two-faced they are. On the surface, they seem like a nice normal family, but when you watch them for a while, their whole image starts to fall apart. It all started the moment they decided to save themselves financially by choosing to become a reality TV Family. when they were loosing the three bedroom home they'd crammed their kids into, and couldn't afford to finish their other house on their own. That is the moment they sold their proverbial souls, and their children, to the lure of celebrity and fortune.

edited for typo. Probably missed more. Will invoke the "I got a new computer this weekend, and am getting used to it" excuse.