Closeted Atheists

[FlorenceHamilton]

Wanderingstar,

I wistfully long for the days when people approached their own religions in the way that you do. I would like to know the history of the movement that co-opted the large umbrella of Chrisitanity over the last generation or so. There have always been fringes of course, but this is something new, different and scary.

I think a friend of mine who is a journalist told me that he felt it gained momentum when Richard Nixon was running for president. In those years the big swath of socially conservative Christians lived in the south and were Democrats. (Because Lincoln was a Republican). I believe he called it the "Southern Strategy". By uniting social and fiscal conservatives, he was able to win 2 terms.

Do any of the historical scholars on the board know any more about how this happened?

Edited for riffle.

[StacyW]

I'm just starting to read Penn Gillette's "God, No!" and he really goes off on people claiming to be agnostic (which is how I've always identified) : "If you're not willing to pretend that matters of god can be certain, you're an atheist, and just say that, you fucking pussy". He's articulate and entertaining, but I think I'm still a pussy agnostic.

http://www.amazon.com/God-No-ebook/dp/B ... 470&sr=1-1

[happy atheist]

For a long time I told people that I am "not religious." That seems to go over better than to actually use the A word, for some reason.

These days I'm more open about saying I'm an atheist, not that it comes up very often. I have noticed a bit of a shift in the attitudes of some people once they know. They're more standoffish, even some Unitarians a little bit. But I just keep on behaving the same way I always have and let it be their problem.

The only time it's really been an issue is when my kids were younger and the parents of some of their friends seemed to all get twitchy at the same time. My kids weren't shunned exactly, but there were suddenly fewer invitations and visits. I saw that as a way to learn who the intolerant people were, and chose not to get too hung up on it. If that was their attitude then I didn't really want my kids hanging out with their kids anyway.

My headship has a coworker who is also an atheist. Her boyfriend was from a fairly religious background and seemed truly surprised that she didn't go to church since she was "such a nice and good person." She used it as a teachable moment and said, basically, "Duh. Church doesn't make you nice or good and you can be both without being religious." I guess he got over it because they're still together years later.

[FakePigtails]

Interesting topic. As some of you might know, I'm not an atheist, but I don't really fall into the typical line of Christian thinking, either. More simply, I tend to be rather liberal. I try to approach Biblical texts and doctrines with a careful, critical mindset while still retaining my faith. I guess if I really needed to make up a term to accurately describe my religious mindset I'd call it Christian Universalist, but on a form I'd probably just put down Christian. In other words, I myself tend to believe in the Abrahamic God and His son Jesus and live by Jesus' teachings, but I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that there might be some other deity or life force as the highest power, and my own personal belief on salvation is that anyone that believes in love and can feel love and compassion for their fellow man will be karmically rewarded/saved and bound for heaven. If there is such a thing as hell or purgatory there are probably way less people there than in heaven. :) But I could spend the longest time trying to explain what I mean about that and will leave it for another day.

This is a lot like me right now, though sometimes I swing more straight agnostic and even atheist (but not in a certain enough way to label myself with either). Part of my situation comes from my refusal to have a "spiritual crisis" with the accompanying drama I've seen from Christian friends in the past so I suppose apathist could fit at times too. I'm in a weird place of trying to parse out my actual beliefs from my negative feelings about other Christians and some of the trends in Christianity right now. If someone asked me IRL, I'd probably say I identify with Christianity but am not active in a church right now. If I knew them better I might even admit to swinging between Christian and agnostic.

If I get to the point of feeling truly an atheist, I don't know how many people I would tell. It's not something that comes up in conversation for me much and I feel no need to advertise my religion or lack thereof in any way. I think it would catch anyone who knows me decently well off guard. In terms of the stigma of it, I wouldn't expect it from anyone I deal with on a daily basis but I do think some of my relatives (mainly my rural conservative in-laws who I've never been close to anyway) would have some of that attitude.

[PennySycamore]

I was told by a former Unity minister that most people were atheist when you got right down to it although they did not admit it to themselves. Interestingly, my fried was ordained as a French Orthodox priest not long before his sudden death.

The late Christopher Hitchens wrote about a speaking tour for his book God is Not Great that a guy from Mississippi that told him that he was far from the only atheist in that state, but most of them were in the closet.

The Southern Strategy predates Nixon by a bit although it came into full flower during his campaign. I'd date its beginnings to Strom Thurmond split from the Democratic Party in the late 40s and early 50s.

I am, like experiencedd, an atheist Buddhist.

[mockingbird]

This is a lot like me right now, though sometimes I swing more straight agnostic and even atheist (but not in a certain enough way to label myself with either). Part of my situation comes from my refusal to have a "spiritual crisis" with the accompanying drama I've seen from Christian friends in the past so I suppose apathist could fit at times too. I'm in a weird place of trying to parse out my actual beliefs from my negative feelings about other Christians and some of the trends in Christianity right now. If someone asked me IRL, I'd probably say I identify with Christianity but am not active in a church right now. If I knew them better I might even admit to swinging between Christian and agnostic.

I feel like I am in the same position as you right now, except Catholic. I've become upset with the Catholic church like many others (especially with their birth control antics) and the attitudes I have seen from some Catholics. Most of the time I feel like I still believe in God though and just want a more liberal church. And then sometimes I just don't care because it's nice to drop the Catholic guilt.

I still go to church with my family when I'm home, which isn't that often - and yeah, I just don't want to stir anything up. I also genuinely like most of the people at that church (grew up going to it) and the priests are great, so on some level I enjoy going. I really like the tradition and especially the music. I just don't know if I can reconcile wanting that with my current grievances with the church.

Oddly enough the one person I was seriously afraid to say anything about this to - a friend who in the past has been Very Catholic - met up with me recently and we spent the whole time ranting about Santorum and the church's stance on birth control. She has always been pro-gay-rights and pro-choice (she thinks abortion is wrong but making it illegal would just cause more problems because people would still try to get them and it could lead to more "back alley" abortions). At the same time she can be legalistic about actual religious practices which can drive me nuts (NOBODY CARES if you eat "chicken" gravy with your mashed potatoes on a Friday in Lent...). I guess that threw me off but she's definitely a "liberal Catholic". The next time I see her I am planning to ask how she can reconcile things like being pro-gay-marriage with the Church's position... we were specifically talking about this and I thought it was weird that she makes a point to tell her kids it's okay to love whoever they like, but that it's also okay that they might not be able to marry in the church they are being raised in. The two just don't compute for me (this is one of my current issues with Catholicism, in general).

The area where I grew up is definitely Catholic. I don't remember talking about it with people I didn't know well but we saw most of my classmates at church, our public school never served meat on Fridays in Lent, you were seen as "different" as a kid if you weren't Catholic - and we knew who most of them were even if we didn't talk about religion much, etc.

[B5SnowDog]

This is the first I've heard this term, and I had to look it up. I guess I'm not understanding how it's different from atheism.

Would you (anybody, not necessarily you, Shirley) say atheists "care" about god/s? How can that be if they don't believe in him/her/them?

An atheist would say there is no god. An apatheist would say I don't care if there is or is not a god. I think apatheism is a subset of either agnosticism or atheism.

[Jezebel]

I've spent my entire adult life living in places where being an out atheist or agnostic is largely acceptable. The one place where it got sticky was a small city here in western Washington State. On the one hand, there was the university crowd. On the other hand, there were lots of megachurch-attending fundies, plus the Dutch Reformed folks, especially once you left town and went "out in the county."

When I first moved there, many of my new neighbors came by to say hello, and some of the more religious ones asked me where I went to church. Coming from San Francisco, I didn't quite know what to make of that question; nobody had ever asked me that before! Not knowing how to respond the first time it happened, I just laughed and said, "Well, I'm just not a churchgoer," and left it at that. And since that seemed to be an acceptable answer, that's what I told anyone who asked (because only Christians ever asked).

Looking back, I realize it was a pretty good answer. The questioner was likely to fill in the blanks by assuming that I was still some sort of Christian (even if only a half-assed and back-slidden one), and thus didn't need to be told about Jesus. Had I told them I was an atheist or agnostic? I would have had no problem dealing with conversion attempts, but I really didn't want to have to do that. And frankly, my beliefs or lack thereof were none of their business in the first place.

I'm not a closeted atheist/agnostic/secular humanist. Anyone who knows me well at all quickly figures that out, if I don't have cause to tell them first. But the last thing I really want to do most days is deal with people who think I need to hear the "good news," because if I'm an atheist it must mean I either don't know about Jesus, or else haven't heard the right arguments for Christianity yet. And dealing with drive-by conversion attempts by strangers is, frankly, a huge waste of my time and energy. I don't want to be bothered with it. So no, I'm not in the closet, but yes, I'm pretty guarded about stating my unbeliever status.

[WanderingStar]

Wandering Star, I understand your pain. Liberal Christians are almost as hated by the more fundie types than non-believers. They seem them as apostates, as a bigger threat than non-believers. I have seen some liberal Christians viciously attacked on Christian forums.

Nice to see I've gotten such warm responses. Thanks to you and everyone else for understanding me :) You're very correct actually that liberal Christians do sometimes deal with as much hostility as atheists. One example being, at least if an atheist proclaims his/her belief in the right for anyone to marry regardless of sexual orientation, a Christian against that belief can brush it off by reasoning "well that's easy for you to support, because you don't believe what the Bible has to say". But a Christian that argues they are also in favor of gay rights and that they have a totally different understanding of certain verses in the Bible at best dumbfounds them into silence, and at worse opens up a new can of theological debating worms or even trying to attack that person by claiming they're not a true Christian. It's madness. My love for Jesus is simple but my faith as a whole is much more complex and not defined to any particular doctrine because almost nothing fully matches up. I imagine it's the same way for a lot of people, no matter where they fall on the religious spectrum. I did have a hard time once a few years ago wondering how I could justify calling myself a Christian when so many others that considered themselves as such were acting so insensitively toward those who believed differently from them, but I realize that I can't let their actions define me and that sometimes, especially in cases involving human rights, it's important to offer my perspective. Otherwise, any real social progress will keep coming to a standstill because of personal morals with no focus on some pretty obvious collective morals, like being tolerant and accepting of others despite what they believe in. Every religion has some variant of the Golden Rule, right? It's universal because it holds so true in both religious and secular settings. Treat others with respect and you should be treated with respect in return.

[julie paradox]

I'm just starting to read Penn Gillette's "God, No!" and he really goes off on people claiming to be agnostic (which is how I've always identified) : "If you're not willing to pretend that matters of god can be certain, you're an atheist, and just say that, you fucking pussy". He's articulate and entertaining, but I think I'm still a pussy agnostic.

http://www.amazon.com/God-No-ebook/dp/B ... 470&sr=1-1

Nice to see the fine old tradition of completely ignoring what a word actually means is alive and well and living on TV.

[QAF_Rocks]

I've seen polls that say the percentage of people who are atheists hovers around 9% in the United States, but only about 2% will self-identify as atheists, due to societal stigma and/or misunderstanding the definition of the word.

Personally, I'm a lifelong atheist and have never had trouble, but I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area. There's never been any reason for me to be closeted about my lack of belief in deities. No one in my family cares one way or the other, and I have a diverse group of friends. We're all pretty much on the liberal side of things, so I haven't had to deal with hardcore religious people and have never lived in the Bible Belt. I have a feeling I wouldn't do well there! ;)

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am betting with the old dude from Mississippi. I think there are way more people who truly, really deep down inside sincerely doubt the existence of the god of the bible. (Notice that I did not say that they do not believe in "something" greater than ourselves.) Lots of people truly believe in the traditions and ceremonies that they find comforting and familiar. Most people really really hope that there is a god that will love us and take us to eternity. My own personal guess is that deep down inside, way more than 9% of the population suspects that there is no Santa Claus.

[Kitchen Princess]

I am a Christian but have nothing against atheists. But I am shocked and disgusted by the number of "closeted" atheists who are working as ministers, if those numbers cited upthread are to be believed. :shock: A person like that is being very dishonest with their congregation and should do the right thing and find another line of work.

That's all well and good for you to think. But it's not your call whether someone throws away their entire social network, their family, and their career, because they have a change of heart. I am sure most of them desperately want to be free to say what they think, but aren't willing to give up so much to do it.

If people like you weren't so judgmental, they might just be willing to do it.

Here's a video of Dan Barker, former Baptist minister, speaking at Skepticon IV. http://youtu.be/dup6xkvj1S0

[QAF_Rocks]

I am betting with the old dude from Mississippi. I think there are way more people who truly, really deep down inside sincerely doubt the existence of the god of the bible. (Notice that I did not say that they do not believe in "something" greater than ourselves.) Lots of people truly believe in the traditions and ceremonies that they find comforting and familiar. Most people really really hope that there is a god that will love us and take us to eternity. My own personal guess is that deep down inside, way more than 9% of the population suspects that there is no Santa Claus.

I'd like to think it's more than 9%, but I just don't know. Doubt and disbelief are two different things. Personally, as a strict materialist, I think relatively few people in the United States are like me - people who absolutely do not believe in gods, goddesses, souls, afterlives, etc.

Someone can be a technical atheist while still believing in other aspects of the supernatural. For example, China is officially atheist, but the majority of people there still have supernatural beliefs of one sort or another. To take another example, Japan looks like an atheist country, since there is no god required for Buddhism, but most Buddhists do believe in life after death, karma, spirits, reincarnation, etc.

In that sense, I identify more as an anti-supernaturalist, simply because I have little in common with people who accept such things. Even if the people involved believe in a vague sort of "something" out there, I tend to find that in opposition to evidence-based thinking.

[Kitchen Princess]

I think of the atheists I know, many are just like you, QAF. No afterlife, etc.

I don't believe in the afterlife, but I believe in science. Therefore, I believe my carbon should go back into the environment to be turned back into the energy from which I came. But I won't be conscious of it.

[Rosa]

There's also the convenient way people have of believing/being two or more things at once. I have a friend who is radiantly pagan and devoutly Catholic, and if you ask her how that works she just says: "It's a Mystery." I have known folks who are animist and Christian, Shinto and Buddhist, Santeria and Catholic, Christian and Universalist - both fully and at the same time.

So saying that there are lots of atheists and agnostics sitting in pews doesn't mean that all of them are just trapped in webs of social obligation - it can mean that an agnostic Catholic (which I suspect several of my boyfriend's relatives are) is just as Catholic as a birth-control-using theist Catholic, or a Catholic who believes that all good people are saved regardless of the sacraments (what I know for a fact my boyfriend's mom is.) It doesn't have to be reconcilable.

It's really only the fundies who insist on pure belief and don't recognize the complexity of people's identities. And even while they insist on purity of dogma they accept a lot of noncompliant actions.

[JesusFightClub]

What Rosa said.

I've got a mate who is both a devout Catholic and a Pagan of sorts. She opposes abortion and attends church whenever the doors open. However she also believes in "the power of three" (maiden, mother, crone) and agrees with a lot of Pagan beliefs. Strange, but she discusses it with her priest...

[Red]

I am agnostic with Buddhist and Pagan leanings, more Buddhist than Pagan. My husband was an atheist before he met me. (He became agnostic because he thought someone had to have hand-designed me. Corny and sweet.)

We happen to live in the bible belt. Saying we're agnostic, even saying we don't go to church, opens up to a bunch of irritating preaching from most people.

[Artemis]

Can I just ask what sort of 'retaliation' the closeted atheists among you, or whom you know, are worried about?

I know masses of atheists here, and no-one gives a toss - I mean it's their call, OK? In fact I'm married to one myself . . .

[Red]

Can I just ask what sort of 'retaliation' the closeted atheists among you, or whom you know, are worried about?

I know masses of atheists here, and no-one gives a toss - I mean it's their call, OK? In fact I'm married to one myself . . .

I think it depends on where you live and on your own sensitivity. Not everyone is emotionally equipped to deal with angry religious people screaming about hell and shunning them at every turn. If conservative religious people are the majority in your area, you're screwed. My own sister says I'm leading my children to hell. That hurts!

[Witsec7]

I think it depends on where you live and on your own sensitivity. Not everyone is emotionally equipped to deal with angry religious people screaming about hell and shunning them at every turn. If conservative religious people are the majority in your area, you're screwed. My own sister says I'm leading my children to hell. That hurts!

Children can be socially ostracized, bullied. In my town (even though I was in a blue state) locals pretty much marginalized a lot of the nonreligious children and nonconforming parents. There was even a documentary made about it, that showed this episode of the culture war played out in real time.

riffles

[quinoa mama]

I guess I am a closet atheist. Some people know, but mostly I keep it to myself. Where I live in South Carolina I feel like I need to be cautious if I want parents to be comfortable letting their children come over and play with mine. Nobody wants an atheists telling teaching their children to abandon God. (Obviously I would never do such a thing. I never talk about gods with anyone else's kids.) If word got around about my atheism I would lose business. I would lose not close friends, but friendly acquaintances. I live a quiet life with my husband and two children. I rarely drink, and I keep clean and I am involved in my the community. I speak clearly and dress conservatively. (Not fundie conservative, but my clothes fit and cover the necessary parts with no outlandish message or extremely sexy cuts. I look like a boring mom.) Because of these reasons I think most people assume I am a Christian. I don't say anything to correct their beliefs. It's uncomfortable with really religious people who talk about it all the time, but with most people religious topics don't come up often.

I was at a backyard cookout and party with some people who didn't seem too interested in religion recently. Frankly they were a bunch of sex-crazed booze hounds as far as I could tell. They were fun to hang out with for a little while, but not likely to be good friends. I guess I was feeling them out because I mentioned that I wasn't looking forward to going to going to my husband's aunt's house for a family reunion the next day because she is really pushy with her beliefs. One lady said she can't stand hypocritical, back stabbing Christians, but at least they weren't goddamn atheists. She whispered the word 'atheists' like it was a swear word. I'm not very good at guessing if someone is going to be sympathetic to my lack of belief or caring.

I probably should be brave and do my part to make life easier for future atheists by making myself an example of the atheist who isn't scary, but I guess I'm chicken. The consequences could be very high, particularly for my children.

[quinoa mama]

Jezebel, I have said I am not a church goer too, and I've also found that people are ok with that. Sometimes I will get an invitation to their church in case I change my mind, and I say thank you. Then I never go, lol.

Artemis, mostly what the others said. Shunning, strange looks, losing business, harassment. I've also had people pretend to befriend me with the goal of getting me in church. It's humiliating when you learn the truth. Mostly it's just that people won't trust you anymore, and they will treat you like an outsider. Perhaps I should say, "Screw that. If you're going to be like that, I'll just ignore you." I probably would, but the one thing that really holds me back is I don't want my children to be ostracized.

[BelieveinScience]

Children can be socially ostracized, bullied. In my town (even though I was in a blue state) locals pretty much marginalized a lot of the nonreligious children and nonconforming parents. There was even a documentary made about it, that showed this episode of the culture war played out in real time.

riffles

Both of those. I'd rather not deal with the crap from closed minded individuals who don't get that there are millions of different religions or lack of religions and their's is not the right one for everyone. It's just not worth it and it's easier to hold back my tongue when I hear BS from people than stand up and be eaten alive because I live in an extremely religious area.

[Peas n carrots]

I'm atheist, and probably have been to some extent for most of my life. I grew up very nominally Catholic...although I did the sacrements we barely ever attended church. In fact, I had never been to church until my mom and dad got married when I was 6 and my mom converted to Catholicism. My dad is/was Catholic, but I have my suspicions that he is at the very least apathetic.

I grew up in Nebraska, however I grew up in an odd liberal enclave in a very, very red state. I would have to do more research why, but I believe it has to do with the large number of Czechs who settled in the area in the late 1800's. Many who came over were "freethinkers." Here is a link that tells you a bit more about them...in many ways they are secular humanists.

http://www.oxfordjctgenealogy.com/main/?page_id=176

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ne/topic/ethnic/czechs/cz-pg287.html

Back home in the old Czech cemetaries you see some old headstones that say that so-and-so was a Freethinker.

Anyways, until my early 20's I would say I was Catholic, even though I didn't really believe or even agree with much of the doctrine. I think it had more or less to do with I wasn't really aware of the atheist option...and I think that holds true for a lot of people I know too. If I went back home and if I was asked I would feel ok saying I was atheist in my general community. They may be shocked more because no one has given that answer to them more than being offended by the lack of belief.

My family is aware. However, when my I told my mom that DH and his entire family are atheists she was quite taken aback! The one person who is truly bothered seems to be my grandma. Although I have never seen her go to church in my life, she claims to be religious and reads the bible. Every time I see her she keeps telling me she will get me to believe before she dies, but then proceeds to do absolutley nothing...not even tell me why I should believe. I think there are a few motivations behind it...I think part of it is she's afraid I won't get into heaven and she'll never see me again. But I think part of it too is that she is in her mid 80's and facing the final years of her life. Having someone who believes there is nothing on the other side probably shakes her own faith too.

So, that leads me to living in heathen, godless Chicago where I feel quite at home and I honestly don't know that many truly religious people. Most of my co-workers seem to be non-religious (I do work with a lot of Jews but for the most part seem to be more culturally Jewish than religious). My friends are for the most part Atheists, though I have a few friends who are Catholic but I think the only reason they go to church is because they fear their mother!