Closeted Atheists

[camdendayton]

I find it strange that atheism seems to carry a stigma in the US. Only 2% of the UK population attend church and most people I know are agnostic.

I would say it's a very regional, and in some cases even a micro-regional thing. I spent my entire childhood in Ohio and have spent my adulthood in California. In California, for the most part, there are enough "out" atheists that I don't think anyone would be shocked and cut someone out for being atheists. That said, when I was attending college in Orange County there were a lot of Evangelicals on campus. I liked to eat lunch alone in the campus park and I can't tell you how many times someone came up to me and asked me to go to church/youth group with them. I always wanted to say, "just because i'm alone doesn't mean I'm so lonely that I will go with you to your stupid church. This is my only time alone F off!" I guess the midwesterner in me is just too polite.

In Ohio, it is probably a little different. In high school I don't remember ever having conversations about religion with someone that wasn't a close friend. The only people whose religions I even knew (other than my Mormon friend, who was a good friend but she stopped returning emails after an uncomfortable exchange about marriage) were those who I saw at the local Catholic church or who went to a Catholic or Christian school, so my (probably incorrect) perception was that most people in my suburb were Catholic. That said, I would say the expectation there was that everyone believed "something."

[Guest Anonymous]

This conversation is absolutely fascinating from my perspective in the UK. I have never heard of the term 'closet atheist' except on FJ and can't imagine being discriminated against for it. :shock:

I was a closet Christian for much of the working portion of my Christian days. It wasn't considered vaguely normal to be 'born again' and I hated the tension between feeling that I should be a 'witness', and just wanting to blend in. Although there is a great deal of tolerance for religious expression in the UK, I think that in the circles I have worked in, faith, especially blind faith, is thought to be a bit intellectually questionable. A good friend of mine is a committed Christian and we talk about it because she is one of the few Christian friends I have left where we sort of 'get' each other and appreciate our understanding of each other's perspective.

I have a fantasy US Road Trip schedule in my head and I dream of finding the money to take off completely on my own and visit all of the fundie places and churches that we talk about on here, completely on my own all the way, just to immerse myself in the experience and see it first hand. :)

[FlorenceHamilton]

Thanks for all of the shares. I like the word apathists.

I agree with the people who observe that many people identify with the religion of their upbringing as a sort of "team" affiliation. I fit into this category to some extent. My words are that I do feel a tribal affiliation. Being Jewish by birth, the word "tribe" is commonplacw in that context.

A lot of folks felt the need to say that it is not a big deal. My original intent when I asked about this was not to make it a big deal, but was curiosity. Now I actually think it is a big deal. 60% of Americans have been polled to say that they would not vote for an atheist for public office. The most common reason why folks on this...very progressive forum state that they don't let their doubts be known because they do not wish to cause a problem for themselves within the family or workplace. That is exactly the reason why gay people stayed in the closet. That is the reason why people of color often accepted their lack of opportunity....their place...for so many generations. They did not want the negative reaction.

I need to reflect on all of this some more. We are watching governments all over America trying and succeeding to inject Christianity into civil law. We are watching serious Presidential candidates promise to do the same. Maybe it really is a big deal that there are so many people who doubt the existence of god as depicted in the bible. I really do not wish to be governed by a system that I believe is the creation of bronze age humans.

We are living in iteresting times.

[bellicosebroad]

I don't think that very many people are closeted atheists, but there's a significant number of people that don't label themselves accordingly.

Yeah... I don't quite call myself an atheist because I do believe in "something," but it's not a defined deity or even spiritual construct. Someone on one of these threads called themselves a "___ atheist" who practiced Buddhism, and I wish I could remember the term. That described me much better than the term I usually use, which is "eclectic spiritualist." Meh. Not quite right.

Edited to add: Ah, the wonders of the FJ search box ;-) ... "spiritually seeking atheist" is what I was trying to remember. Thanks to melk and experiencedd for this delightfully precise term.

[Shirley MacLaine]

The most common reason why folks on this...very progressive forum state that they don't let their doubts be known because they do not wish to cause a problem for themselves within the family or workplace.

Yeah, I mean, I am not 'out' as an atheist to my family (although I have been otherwise fully public about it to everyone since I was a wee little angry atheist preteen) in because I do not wish to cause a problem for myself. But I don't feel that it's my or anyone's responsibility to fuck up important familial/work relationships to take a hit for the team.

I had a very tumultuous relationship with my parents for many years, and I enjoy the hell out of them now. It doesn't bother me to lie to them (it really requires very little active lying... mostly just silence), and it would be an absolutely disgusting drama if I 'came out' and I just can't be bothered. I see my family two or three times a year, I want us to enjoy each other when we can.

[Athena]

I'm only closeted at work and with extended family members. I think most of the family has their suspicions though (we didn't baptize our baby for example). I'm afraid to 'come out' at work because a couple of the management team members are JWs. And really, work isn't the place to discuss religion.

Actually, my husband and I recieved a letter in the mail yesterday from his Grandma who was trying to convert? us I guess. I think she's concerned about the next generation losing religion completely. We're the first to have a kid and none of her other grandchildren seem to be on their way to that yet. But what do you say to that? Thanks for your concern, but no thanks?

[Kitchen Princess]

I'll have to add that I never thought of myself as a closeted anything. Being agnositc or atheist is simply that. I don't know (although I suspect nothing), isn't scandalous.

Depends on where you're from.

I couldn't come out as an atheist where I live without some serious backlash. I am out to my closest friends, but they love me anyway, and were along for the ride I took to get here. And they don't live in my area. :-/

There is a very out, open and active atheist/skeptic/reason community. The Reason Rally just occurred in DC last weekend.

[turquoise]

Interesting thread. I consider myself agnostic but don't make a point of telling people. I don't talk about religion much with anyone other than relatives or close friends who have similar views. If I told my religious relatives, they would get very upset and try to convert me. I'd rather avoid the drama and enjoy their company.

Given all the prejudice in this country, I wonder who would be most likely to get elected--an openly gay candidate, a Muslim, or an open atheist. Too bad we don't live in a country where none of these things would matter.

[Kitchen Princess]

Thanks for all of the shares. I like the word apathists.

I agree with the people who observe that many people identify with the religion of their upbringing as a sort of "team" affiliation. I fit into this category to some extent. My words are that I do feel a tribal affiliation. Being Jewish by birth, the word "tribe" is commonplacw in that context.

A lot of folks felt the need to say that it is not a big deal. My original intent when I asked about this was not to make it a big deal, but was curiosity. Now I actually think it is a big deal. 60% of Americans have been polled to say that they would not vote for an atheist for public office. The most common reason why folks on this...very progressive forum state that they don't let their doubts be known because they do not wish to cause a problem for themselves within the family or workplace. That is exactly the reason why gay people stayed in the closet. That is the reason why people of color often accepted their lack of opportunity....their place...for so many generations. They did not want the negative reaction.

I need to reflect on all of this some more. We are watching governments all over America trying and succeeding to inject Christianity into civil law. We are watching serious Presidential candidates promise to do the same. Maybe it really is a big deal that there are so many people who doubt the existence of god as depicted in the bible. I really do not wish to be governed by a system that I believe is the creation of bronze age humans.

We are living in iteresting times.

Your post made me think of something. I live in a dry county (but it has 170 "private clubs" where you can buy alcohol by the drink). Every few years there is a petition drive to get the wet/dry issue on the ballot, and one is going on now for the November election.

I have considered collecting signatures in my town to put it on the ballot, because it's ridiculous that we don't have liquor stores in our county and that I have to drive to another county to buy wine.

But I know certain people will think I am a non-Christian, or even worse, when previously I've just encouraged them to think whatever they want to think about my religious proclivities.

That's a pretty sad state of affairs.

[Avalondaughter]

I can't say 100% that I'm an atheist.

I don't believe in the Abrahamic "God" figure. I believe it's a human construct.

I don't believe a radical Jew executed for treason by the Romans in ancient Palestine is somehow responsible for the state of my soul when I die due to some bizarre system of cosmic justice.

I do believe in the possiblity of forces in the universe/nature/the human brain that are beyond our knowing. I am equally willing to accept that rational scientific explanations can be found for any of them, even if they haven't been found yet.

I believe that if there are external forces, humans have the power to control them and give them shape. In a sense, I believe God exists because so many people believe in him and that gives him power. The more energy people put into a belief, the more power it gets.

Ever see the movie "Ghostbusters 2"? There was this pink slime running under NYC that was causing all kinds of bad stuff to happen because it fed off the negative energy of New Yorkers. However, the slime could be charged positively and the more postive energy you put into it, the more postivity it created in return. I suppose I sort of believe in a "cosmic pink slime".

[margiebargie]

Thanks for all of the shares. I like the word apathists.

I agree with the people who observe that many people identify with the religion of their upbringing as a sort of "team" affiliation. I fit into this category to some extent. My words are that I do feel a tribal affiliation. Being Jewish by birth, the word "tribe" is commonplacw in that context.

A lot of folks felt the need to say that it is not a big deal. My original intent when I asked about this was not to make it a big deal, but was curiosity. Now I actually think it is a big deal. 60% of Americans have been polled to say that they would not vote for an atheist for public office. The most common reason why folks on this...very progressive forum state that they don't let their doubts be known because they do not wish to cause a problem for themselves within the family or workplace. That is exactly the reason why gay people stayed in the closet. That is the reason why people of color often accepted their lack of opportunity....their place...for so many generations. They did not want the negative reaction.

I need to reflect on all of this some more. We are watching governments all over America trying and succeeding to inject Christianity into civil law. We are watching serious Presidential candidates promise to do the same. Maybe it really is a big deal that there are so many people who doubt the existence of god as depicted in the bible. I really do not wish to be governed by a system that I believe is the creation of bronze age humans.

We are living in iteresting times.

I like the term apathists, too. I started off Catholic, became completely disgusted with the Catholic Church. (Amazingly, they manage to disgust me more and more every day it seems.) Went to a fundie-ish church where all they talked about was the Bible. So I read the Bible and promptly deconverted altogether. At this point, I was definitely an apathist - just happy to sweep all the mumbojumbo from my head and sleep in on Sundays. It was a happy time.

Now that I have a daughter the stakes are higher. I recognize a lot more how damaging religion really can be, especially for girls. I'm more outspoken these days, and I would definitely call myself an atheist. I certainly don't bring it up in situations where its not appropriate. But I do take advantage of openings.

ETA: At work we say the pledge of allegiance frequently. I always leave out "under god" and I always wonder if people notice. There's someone else who does, too.

[Shirley MacLaine]

Apathism really resonates with me, too. I don't believe in any god/s, but more importantly... I just really, really don't care.

[fluttershies]

I'm not an atheist/agnostic/apathist *ducks the rotten tomatoes* but I certainly think there are many people who secretly are. I do wonder though, how much it applies to the world as a whole. Most people who are religious in any way do not live in the West.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I'm not an atheist/agnostic/apathist *ducks the rotten tomatoes* but I certainly think there are many people who secretly are. I do wonder though, how much it applies to the world as a whole. Most people who are religious in any way do not live in the West.

I can't agree with that. I think that the US is one of the most religious regions in the world. Much of Central and South America is devoutly Catholic. I think that the reason why we are all together on this and other forums is because we are facing the spectre of becomeing a Theocracy. If these people did not have a lot of power, then we would not feel the needs to either closet ourselves or come up with a creative spirituality. For the record, I do believe in some sort of force that binds the universe. I do not know that it is a sentient entity. I do not know that is isn't either. But I am comforable that the god of the bible is not an accurate representation of this. I really think that the bible tells real historical events (and some events that may have been carried orally as "lore") veiwed through the lens of bronze age people who figured out how to write. They had knowledge of using the sky to mark the passage of time. They had knowledge of Asia-Africa-Europe (which was limited) They witnessed floods and earthquakes and other acts of nature and tried to figure out "why" with the tools that they had.

[JesusFightClub]

I am a complete atheist (no gods, no masters) and would have no hesitation telling anyone that. Except, why would I bother?

Comrades already know and will hold the same position themselves. People who aren't comrades do not care.

[GoodbyeBlueMonday]

My dad is a lawyer in southern West Virginia. He is a closeted atheist (or maybe he considers himself agnostic, I'm not sure) because most of his clients are very rural and conservative and he doesn't want to alienate them. He used to play country music in his waiting room for similar reasons. :D

Actually, now that I think about it, I guess the whole family generally tries not to stir the religious pot when associating with our southern West Virginian friends/family members/past and present coworkers because the default assumption there is that everyone is Christian and rightward leaning (and very pro-coal, but that's a whole other story).

Point of this story being: There are definitely some areas of the US where being an "out" atheist or agnostic person could cause some social conflict.

[kpmom]

Apathism really resonates with me, too. I don't believe in any god/s, but more importantly... I just really, really don't care.

This is the first I've heard this term, and I had to look it up. I guess I'm not understanding how it's different from atheism.

Would you (anybody, not necessarily you, Shirley) say atheists "care" about god/s? How can that be if they don't believe in him/her/them?

[fluttershies]

I can't agree with that. I think that the US is one of the most religious regions in the world. Much of Central and South America is devoutly Catholic. I think that the reason why we are all together on this and other forums is because we are facing the spectre of becomeing a Theocracy. If these people did not have a lot of power, then we would not feel the needs to either closet ourselves or come up with a creative spirituality. For the record, I do believe in some sort of force that binds the universe. I do not know that it is a sentient entity. I do not know that is isn't either. But I am comforable that the god of the bible is not an accurate representation of this. I really think that the bible tells real historical events (and some events that may have been carried orally as "lore") veiwed through the lens of bronze age people who figured out how to write. They had knowledge of using the sky to mark the passage of time. They had knowledge of Asia-Africa-Europe (which was limited) They witnessed floods and earthquakes and other acts of nature and tried to figure out "why" with the tools that they had.

Actually, the US really isn't one of the most religious countries in the world, not by a long way. Here's a map showing the percentages of people who are not religious across the world (darkest colour equalling majority of population being irreligious, eg China on the map):

Considering that the US is less religious than Portugal and about as religious as Spain (for example), I'd say the chances of the US becoming a theocracy is slim. The mixing of church and state, no matter how reprehensible that is (and as a socialist as well as a Christian, I very much oppose it), does not equal a theocracy in most cases.

Also, South America is a very diverse continent and considering the prevalence of left-wing politice/governments there, the level of Catholic devotion very much varies by country. In any case, South America in general cannot be compared to the US.

The US has very little in common with actual theocracies, such as Iran, and I find the comparison problematic. Facing problems socially because cultural Christianity is very strong is a world away from loss of life because the government opposes any point of view regarding religion than its own. Not to say that social problems caused by the perception of not being religious can't be a serious problem, but it's just not the same.

[Shirley MacLaine]

say atheists "care" about god/s? How can that be if they don't believe in him/her/them?

No, I would not. I just think that the most important question to me is not 'does a deity/deities/The Force exist', but 'does it matter?' To me those are ... related but slightly different things.

[kpmom]

No, I would not. I just think that the most important question to me is not 'does a deity/deities/The Force exist', but 'does it matter?' To me those are ... related but slightly different things.

O.k., that makes sense.

[Michael Mock]

This is the first I've heard this term, and I had to look it up. I guess I'm not understanding how it's different from atheism.

Would you (anybody, not necessarily you, Shirley) say atheists "care" about god/s? How can that be if they don't believe in him/her/them?

"Atheist" in the U.S. often carries particular connotations - not just people who don't believe in God, but people who actively believe that God Does Not Exist. The term is often associated with the more "militant" (which is, frankly, better described as "outspoken" or "confrontational") atheists, rather than being a blanket term for anyone who doesn't happen to believe in God, doesn't much care, and/or thinks the whole thing is a bit silly. Add to that, there are some strains of Christianity which are actively scapegoating/demonizing "atheists", and basically you have a situation where the term frequently carries a lot of baggage.

Personally, I tend to define myself as a "functional atheist", mainly as a way of saying "it's more complicated than that." But a lot of non-believers, I think, define themselves as agnostics rather than atheists precisely because using the term "atheist" carries a social stigma in a lot of areas. "Apatheist" is another attempt to make that sort of distinction; it's basically shorthand for, "I don't believe in God, but I'm not out to get anyone who does." (At least, that's my personal, anecdotal impression of the term.)

[Shirley MacLaine]

Personally, I tend to define myself as a "functional atheist", mainly as a way of saying "it's more complicated than that." But a lot of non-believers, I think, define themselves as agnostics rather than atheists precisely because using the term "atheist" carries a social stigma in a lot of areas. "Apatheist" is another attempt to make that sort of distinction; it's basically shorthand for, "I don't believe in God, but I'm not out to get anyone who does." (At least, that's my personal, anecdotal impression of the term.)

I don't think that's true about apatheism - one might identify as an apatheist/apathist and actively Reject God, but I think to a lot of religious people 'your God is irrelevant and I'm not interested' is as offensive as 'God doesn't exist.' It still seems like a statement of opposition.

I do think a lot of people will say agnostic to, er, soften the blow, or avoid people saying that you're an ~arrogant atheist~ who ~knows it all~. I found when I identified as an agnostic it made people more likely to continue bothering me about coming along to their church. People tend to take 'agnosticism' to mean you're still questioning and seeking. It's not often taken as a definitive position. When I started saying atheist, people would give up on me much faster. It's very nice that way. Sometimes I'll say agnostic atheist or negative atheist.

[camdendayton]

Apathism really resonates with me, too. I don't believe in any god/s, but more importantly... I just really, really don't care.

^this. I like to say "I don't care and um, I don't care." The ability to believe in the super natural is something I find fascinating and am a tiny bit jealous of. But really I care way more about people's actions than what may or may not be going on in their head. (unless of course they want to have an honest conversation about that. Then I'm all in!)

[FlorenceHamilton]

I think that the reason this is topical is that the climate is changing. I have no problem with other people beleiving in whatever they wish. I DO have a problem with having those beliefs legislated by our civil government.

As for whether my lack of belief in the god of the bible being offensive, I would like to pose a question. Why do Christians feel justified in telling non-Christians that their god is not real but cannot handle when someone feels the same way about theirs.

[Witsec7]

I'm an atheist who practices Buddhism. I'm lucky to live in a liberal bubble where being out has no impact on my life.