Bittners/By Grace Alone

[debrand]

I'm not offended by valsa's questions. They are reasonable ones that we should ask ourselves.

Speaking just for myself, I don't think that I woud treat a male differently in this situation than a female. No matter how you look at either of these cases they are terrible.

[meda]

Why does it have to be an ATI family? Are there not other types of families that are sufficiently similar in dysfunction to be able to make the comparison?

Part of the problem of tunnel vision is that your field of view is so narrow that you shut yourself off from ever having to find an applicable situation to compare this to. Especially when you just admitted that you'd only consider a male from a situation that you don't think could ever produce such a male.

If you think that kind of thing doesn't happen in Youth Sex Offender Treatment Facilities, you probably have no experience with them.

As for being offended, feel free. You specifically may feel the same but experience with FJ as a whole (invoking the Hive Vagina here) shows that we're much more likely to sympathize with women than men (even when the situations they're in are very similar)

Why wouldn't the comparison be to an ATI family? "tunnel vision" aside, we are talking about a specific person. This girl was raped (gang or family, still awful), and sent away by her family, who knowingly consented to corporal punishment, to a facility who beat her, didn't,t feed her, and told her that her sexual trauma was her fault. In what other subculture in the USA does that happen except fundie/IFB/ATI? You can't compare the place she was sent to any kind of youth facility for a variety of reasons:

1. She was a victim of sexual assault when she was sent, not a perpetrator

2. She was sent by her family, not sentenced by a court after a hearing at which she would have had legal representation.

3. The abuse that happened at the facility was condoned by her family and church. My husband represents YO's, including some convicted of sexual assault. The facilities may not be all that great, but they are fed, assigned a social worker, and have access to their lawyer and the legal system. None of these things seemed to be available to Priscilla.

Also, since I started the Disheroon thread:

I posted what I found on google, which was an appeals court (not lower court) case regarding right to a speedy trial. The underlying facts of the charge were a part of the appeals case. From this, we learned several things.

1. Disheroon stayed in the family home during the court process.

2. His family hired private attorneys to represent him, including an appeals court case.

3. Although he pled to something, he is still a valued member of the subculture, appears in their films, and was rewarded with a bride from minor VF royalty.

[Witsec1]

My post didn't show up, that was weird.

Flora, while i know we can't predict the future, i just think it is understandable - though horribly ill-advised - of Disharoon to tell us to STFU and I could see someone in a similar circumstance, like Priscilla, doing that, but i wouldn't hold it against her (though i would think it demonstrates immaturity at the very least). As for the court records, perhaps Disharoon was 18?

What we know with Disharoon is that we he pled guilty to something - not exactly what he was accused of, but something. We don't even know how Priscilla is going to plead, yet. My point is that it's ridiculous to compare how Brantley was treated to how Priscilla was treated and say it's an example of the Hive Vagina's bias.

[haveapicniclife]

What is the source of the information on the rape?

The only source I've seen is from the 20/20 story. The article said she was gang raped while jogging, no one was actually quoted though.

[Deleted03]

btw the idea was to inform the family not hide it under the rug. I don't know about you but I posted a comment on Jacqueline's blog (she did not publish) with a link to the story asking her if it was her sister and saying I was sorry for the ordeal her family is going through. I did it to ensure she was aware of the situation (after all the pics made me wish she was not at the time aware) We're not trying to hide information from judges or even the Internet. I don't get why you get so gung ho on a tunnel vision on a hypothetical case with a guy in a similar situation. I'll cross the bridge when I get there and keep in mind the reminder of tunnel vision.

[Witsec1]

Why wouldn't the comparison be to an ATI family? "tunnel vision" aside, we are talking about a specific person. This girl was raped (gang or family, still awful), and sent away by her family, who knowingly consented to corporal punishment, to a facility who beat her, didn't,t feed her, and told her that her sexual trauma was her fault. In what other subculture in the USA does that happen except fundie/IFB/ATI? You can't compare the place she was sent to any kind of youth facility for a variety of reasons:

1. She was a victim of sexual assault when she was sent, not a perpetrator

2. She was sent by her family, not sentenced by a court after a hearing at which she would have had legal representation.

3. The abuse that happened at the facility was condoned by her family and church. My husband represents YO's, including some convicted of sexual assault. The facilities may not be all that great, but they are fed, assigned a social worker, and have access to their lawyer and the legal system. None of these things seemed to be available to Priscilla.

Also, since I started the Disheroon thread:

I posted what I found on google, which was an appeals court (not lower court) case regarding right to a speedy trial. The underlying facts of the charge were a part of the appeals case. From this, we learned several things.

1. Disheroon stayed in the family home during the court process.

2. His family hired private attorneys to represent him, including an appeals court case.

3. Although he pled to something, he is still a valued member of the subculture, appears in their films, and was rewarded with a bride from minor VF royalty.

Very good run-down of why the cases aren't comparable, Meda. Especially the last point.

There aren't as many female sex offenders as male sex offenders, in or out of fundie-dom. It's more common for women to be violent and abusive toward their children, or to be bystanders/accomplices to the abuse of children by male partners. I don't think the Hive Vagina is very forgiving to women who do that, whatever their background.

[BogoPogo1]

Delurking with small offering.

http://stopnbga.blogspot.com/p/parent-stories.html

edit: also, this: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08 ... omes-abuse

[Drunkenbutterfly]

Well, I don't recall that anybody said that she shouldn't be held responsible for her action. We asked for a fair trial(with a good lawyer, not some idiot incompetent lawyer who can't handle this case sensitively) and adequate psychological help. Nobody said that it wasn't an absolute terrible thing to do.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't see that case differently than with a male protangonist. And I can't find an evidence that anybody suggested, that she should be treated differently because she is a girl.

However, Disharoons and Priscillas cases are not comparabel(for me):

1. I never heard of Disharoon before the thread on FJ. Talk about first impression.

2. While we know that Priscilla was abused herself, we don't know about D.

3. P's abuse and criminal actions are close together, Disharoon's actions were 10 years ago.

4. The whole delaying made it sound it bit fishy.

In addition: Contacting the fiancée seemed necessary, because we didn't know if she knew and if he got therapy of any sort.

While I didn't engage in the Disharoon discussion(I think), I was well aware that it might be set up (like I said earlier, maybe an involved fourth party with P's case) or not PLUS something is wrong with the picture when a 13-year-old goes out to abuse someone, most likely suffered abuse for himself AND that the reason this trial was given up was so stupid and that he should have been held accountable for all of his actions, given the circumstances.

We just don't know what exactly happened in both cases, but we are just trying to puzzle everything together. And saying that the gang-raping might be just a cover-up for something else is not so farfetched.

Concerning tunnel version: Please show me an example for that. Saying it is tunnel version, because somebody said ATI-family is a bit nitpicky. I am sure that the poster was very well aware and I am sure that others agree, that abuse can happen in any family from trailer-living to average-middleclass to Fifth Avenue families, black and white, religious or not.

Lastly and off-topic: I am not a native speaker, I apologize for any grammar or vocabulary mistakes(some words sound alike in my language and have a completely different meaning) I have made in advance. I usually comment shorter so I don't have to worry about that.;-)

[fundifugee]

Delurking with small offering.

http://stopnbga.blogspot.com/p/parent-stories.html

edit: also, this: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08 ... omes-abuse

I wonder if Mother Jones would be into getting some follow-up on this story? They are pretty good at digging up well-buried details.

[fundifugee]

There is a page for stalking her! What the hell.

The photos on the stalker page are all pretty flattering. At first I thought it was Priscilla who wrote the page, drumming up some publicity for some mention of a cosmetology or modelling career. However, after reading that Seventy times Seven blog post, I think it was Jacqueline who set up the Stalking blog, and it is about the lies that J mentions. Maybe P was trying to pursue a normal life outside patriarchy, unbeknownst to her family.

[BogoPogo1]

I wonder if Mother Jones would be into getting some follow-up on this story? They are pretty good at digging up well-buried details.

I was rather hoping that Kathryn Joyce would follow up with this, possibly with help, since she interviewed Priscilla herself. This whole thing just makes me so :cry: :cry:

[haveapicniclife]

I'm pretty sure that blog is for a different Priscilla. None of those pictures are her, particularly the last one. You can see her on Jacqueline's blog, she looks completely different.

This is Priscilla:

http://4.bp.blogspot dot com/_R0Xa55TRovA/S-BgomvzIxI/AAAAAAAACO4/09eDvsfDQbA/s1600/Chicago-IBLP-Vacation+168.JPG

[fundifugee]

I'm pretty sure that blog is for a different Priscilla. None of those pictures are her, particularly the last one. You can see her on Jacqueline's blog, she looks completely different.

This is Priscilla:

http://4.bp.blogspot dot com/_R0Xa55TRovA/S-BgomvzIxI/AAAAAAAACO4/09eDvsfDQbA/s1600/Chicago-IBLP-Vacation+168.JPG

Ummm, they don't mention Priscilla, they use fake names - Mom is called "Jeannie Marie" (P's mom is Jeannette); but it is the same story about a military family, fundy x-ian, daughter raped and then sent to reform school in MO. I suspect the two pages posted are the Bittners' story.

[haveapicniclife]

Huh? I'm talking about "The Stalkers of Priscilla Bittner" blog referenced above. Not the other articles, I know that's about her.

[BogoPogo1]

Huh? I'm talking about "The Stalkers of Priscilla Bittner" blog referenced above. Not the other articles, I know that's about her.

Her ex-boyfriend said in a comment on a news article that the Stalkers site was a joke. I'll find the reference and edit asap.

edit: here you go: http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/ ... nts-2.html

Ex is Kyle McKibben.

[haveapicniclife]

Her ex-boyfriend said in a comment on a news article that the Stalkers site was a joke. I'll find the reference and edit asap.

edit: here you go: http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/ ... nts-2.html

Ex is Kyle McKibben.

Nice find, thank you! I didn't think the pictures were her. I saw on FB that Kyle had commented on her pics, so I figured they were together at some point.

"Kyle McKibben October 21, 2011 at 7:12PM

Follow

the page is unrelated....none of those pictures are her or have anything to do with her it was made as a joke by her friends i believe along time ago"

[longskirtlotsakids]

Haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been brought up prior.

Part of me wonders if the sexual act captured in the pics and video was a form of "purity check." I have heard of fathers 'checking' their daughter hymens.

[fancypants]

How would that involve a 10- and 12-year-old?

[Deleted03]

How would that involve a 10- and 12-year-old?

how would that involve an 18 year old female stranger to the family?

[BogoPogo1]

Haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been brought up prior.

Part of me wonders if the sexual act captured in the pics and video was a form of "purity check." I have heard of fathers 'checking' their daughter hymens.

Yeah, you should probably read the whole thread, and the provided links.

[longskirtlotsakids]

I meant, that perhaps the 18 year old female was performing a "purity check" on the minor children. There are those that pass this kind of sick tradition on to the children.

[Drunkenbutterfly]

IIRC, the abused children were male, so hard to check on their purity.

[apple1]

IIRC, the abused children were male, so hard to check on their purity.

The only information I have seen is "two young children ages 10 and 12". I have not seen anything indicating the gender of the children.(If you have, please provide the link).

As stated earlier in this thread, public information on any of this is extremely minimal.

Something is fishy about the entire saga.

[RL246]

weird that i found this site. i know Priscilla! i met her at my college last spring. her older sister still goes there and i met her once in the library. her sister was genuinely nice and i've seen her around campus and heard other students talk about her (all good talk). president of the honor society, very studious, straight A's, 4.0, generally well liked by all of her classmates,helps other students if they need it. Cilla (what she prefers to be called by her friends) and i hung out a lot and i got to know her back story. she had just come home from that girls place and she told me a lot. she said her parents did check into it and even interviewed some of the girls who were on tour. everyone involved (even the girls) told her parents it was an awesome place, said they had a professional counselor, and it was basicly supposed to be like a retreat. before that her mom had taken her to a few different professional counselors but Cilla thought it was stupid and wanted to quit going. about the hospitalization- she told me all her parents knew was that she had really bad menstrual cramps and bleeding and her mom took her to the doctor because she thought Cilla might have endometriosis or uterine cancer or something. Cilla had never let on that she was sexually active and her mom and dad were genuinely baffled by her case. they thought she inherited some endocrine issues that run in her grams family. she got put in the hospital and the doctors informed her parents she was sexually active. Cilla told me her parents didn't have a clue that she was, so then Cilla told them she was gang raped. she said her parents looked for the men responsible, filed tons of reports with the police and the hospital and encouraged her to report to the police what had happened. the detectives eventually dropped the case cuz they couldn't find anyone that matched cillas descriptions. from all the stuff she told me (and we told each other a lot) her parents did all they could. she got irritated that they were so concerned for her and were trying to help so much. she said her one dream was beauty school so her mom and dad were trying to get her into a few different ones. this lady from NY said they had a beauty school that cilla could attend for free but she had to be living as a child in their house they met the lady before but weren't bff's or anything. cilla really wanted to do it and her parents checked it out and it was true, (i was thinking about going too) so her parents let her move up there. she missed her boyfriend but she also wanted to break up with him so it was kind of weird. Cilla "borrowed" some stuff from the lady and the lady got mad at her. cillas bf would call and cuss at the lady all the time so the lady took cillas phone and computer because she wouldn't stop having her bf call the house. the "evidence" they found was something like her and that womans two daughters dancing around in their undies or something stupid. that lady's son recorded it and put it on her computer and then his mom found it. i don't kno the rest but cilla and i kept up through email and that woman sounds psycho. cilla got sick of that woman and went back home (ran away) and then that lady filed all those charges against her. cilla was at the courthouse filing a report against something else when they told her she was wanted in NY because of all the charges this lady filed. that's all i know and i hope the judge sees through that wretched woman!!! she's a *****!!!

[BogoPogo1]

weird that i found this site. i know Priscilla! i met her at my college last spring. her older sister still goes there and i met her once in the library. her sister was genuinely nice and i've seen her around campus and heard other students talk about her (all good talk). president of the honor society, very studious, straight A's, 4.0, generally well liked by all of her classmates,helps other students if they need it. Cilla (what she prefers to be called by her friends) and i hung out a lot and i got to know her back story. she had just come home from that girls place and she told me a lot. she said her parents did check into it and even interviewed some of the girls who were on tour. everyone involved (even the girls) told her parents it was an awesome place, said they had a professional counselor, and it was basicly supposed to be like a retreat. before that her mom had taken her to a few different professional counselors but Cilla thought it was stupid and wanted to quit going. about the hospitalization- she told me all her parents knew was that she had really bad menstrual cramps and bleeding and her mom took her to the doctor because she thought Cilla might have endometriosis or uterine cancer or something. Cilla had never let on that she was sexually active and her mom and dad were genuinely baffled by her case. they thought she inherited some endocrine issues that run in her grams family. she got put in the hospital and the doctors informed her parents she was sexually active. Cilla told me her parents didn't have a clue that she was, so then Cilla told them she was gang raped. she said her parents looked for the men responsible, filed tons of reports with the police and the hospital and encouraged her to report to the police what had happened. the detectives eventually dropped the case cuz they couldn't find anyone that matched cillas descriptions. from all the stuff she told me (and we told each other a lot) her parents did all they could. she got irritated that they were so concerned for her and were trying to help so much. she said her one dream was beauty school so her mom and dad were trying to get her into a few different ones. this lady from NY said they had a beauty school that cilla could attend for free but she had to be living as a child in their house they met the lady before but weren't bff's or anything. cilla really wanted to do it and her parents checked it out and it was true, (i was thinking about going too) so her parents let her move up there. she missed her boyfriend but she also wanted to break up with him so it was kind of weird. Cilla "borrowed" some stuff from the lady and the lady got mad at her. cillas bf would call and cuss at the lady all the time so the lady took cillas phone and computer because she wouldn't stop having her bf call the house. the "evidence" they found was something like her and that womans two daughters dancing around in their undies or something stupid. that lady's son recorded it and put it on her computer and then his mom found it. i don't kno the rest but cilla and i kept up through email and that woman sounds psycho. cilla got sick of that woman and went back home (ran away) and then that lady filed all those charges against her. cilla was at the courthouse filing a report against something else when they told her she was wanted in NY because of all the charges this lady filed. that's all i know and i hope the judge sees through that wretched woman!!! she's a *****!!!

I don't know you from Adam but this story makes a lot more sense. Except for how the sister is president of the honor society? I thought she did some kind of degree in nutrition and was done with school?