Bittners/By Grace Alone

[debrand]

I get that rape and the subsequent lack of help and support could have caused her to develop mental health issues. But I would imagine that most molesters have mental health issues. While I empathize with her over the rape, I'm not sure how she is much different than Brantley Disharoon, who we skewered last year (deservedly so, IMO) and outed to his fiance (assuming she didn't already know). It's probably safe to assume that something happened to Brantley along the way in his childhood as most perpetrators suffered some sort of abuse in childhood, and for that, they deserve sympathy. But it doesn't ameliorate their later criminal acts, and the same is true of this young woman.

Unless I'm missing something. . .

No, I think that you are correct. If she is guilty, she deserves punishment. Sometimes I watch shows about criminals on the ID channel. Often the perpetrator's background is so horrible that I feel sorrow for the hurt child that they once were. That doesn't mean that I don't think that they deserve punishment or that their crimes aren't evil

[valsa]

I think it's just coincidence. I'd bet if she was sent because of her drinking they would have taken her computer and her phone too. Plus if her family found it why send her with those items at all? Did the family have children? We don't know that either. I'm pointing out that you're giving way too much credit to a family whose only answer to trouble is take toys away and family away.

It probably is just a coincidence. I wasn't trying to portray what I think happened (actually, I think you're probably right that the family didn't know about the sexual abuse and probably just took those things away to punish her), only that there are other possibilities than the one everyone seemed to just to. Sometimes FJ gets a bit of tunnel vision.

I'm not a judge I won't say what a fair sentence is in that case. But to judge acts of an 18 year old and a couple months who was sheltered, abused, raped and shipped off by her family as the acts of a mentally "stable" adult is problematic IMO. I don't know the facts I won't say what the sentence should be.

There are plenty of male child molesters who are young, have been sexually assaulted, and come from screwed up backgrounds. I'm judging her by the same standards I'd judge them by.

What if it turns out she wanted professional help and her parents said no to secular help? then what?

Then she's in the same position as thousands of other girls from fundie/repressive families who've been raped and not allowed to get legitimate help. Last I checked, none of those other girls went on to rape children.

[Witsec1]

I hate to always play the devil's advocate but there is another possible reason for them taking her laptop and cell phone. She's a sex offender and child molester

She's an alleged sex offender. There are so many things we don't know here. She was just arrested, we have no idea what her defense will be. The laptop being taken away was in reference to speculation that evidence could have been planted/faked.

The only thing that is clear is that her family are not the happy shiny Christian people they pretend to be.

[Guest Anonymous]

I get that rape and the subsequent lack of help and support could have caused her to develop mental health issues. But I would imagine that most molesters have mental health issues. While I empathize with her over the rape, I'm not sure how she is much different than Brantley Disharoon, who we skewered last year (deservedly so, IMO) and outed to his fiance (assuming she didn't already know). It's probably safe to assume that something happened to Brantley along the way in his childhood as most perpetrators suffered some sort of abuse in childhood, and for that, they deserve sympathy. But it doesn't ameliorate their later criminal acts, and the same is true of this young woman.

Unless I'm missing something. . .

Both are alleged sex offenders. We seem to be missing a lot of facts in each case.

Personally, I didn't feel comfortable with the 'skewering' of Brantley Disharoon either. I don't think we know all the facts in either case, but a common theme seems to be that, in each case, the responsible adults have covered up at least a part of what has gone on. I'd like to see everyone involved held accountable for their part in the hideous messes that were caused.

[valsa]

She's an alleged sex offender. There are so many things we don't know here. She was just arrested, we have no idea what her defense will be. The laptop being taken away was in reference to speculation that evidence could have been planted/faked.

The only thing that is clear is that her family are not the happy shiny Christian people they pretend to be.

True. However, I'd like to see some statistics of how often child molestation evidence (specifically videos with the molester in it, molesting the children, which it appears to be in this case) is faked/planted before I adjust my terminology.

[Witsec1]

With Disharoon, we had the extra information that the case dragged on for years without his lawyers mounting any defense. The actual legal document was a motion to have the case dismissed because his right to a speedy trial had been violated. Which was thrown out partially because it was his own legal team that was responsible for some of the delays. And he did plead guilty to something.

[Austin]

Both are alleged sex offenders. We seem to be missing a lot of facts in each case.

Personally, I didn't feel comfortable with the 'skewering' of Brantley Disharoon either. I don't think we know all the facts in either case, but a common theme seems to be that, in each case, the responsible adults have covered up at least a part of what has gone on. I'd like to see everyone involved held accountable for their part in the hideous messes that were caused.

I realized that it is "alleged" in both cases. I was not commenting on that either way and I didn't say "so-and-so is a child molester". I was just saying that we had little more info on Disharoon than we do on this young woman, and we reacted quite differently. I seem to recall that there were some court documents that were found on Disharoon, though. . . I can't recall it all.

I worded my skewering sentence inaccurately: I should have said "deservedly so" about the contact of his fiance, because I did support that as there were court documents that backed up some of that stuff (again, if I'm remembering correctly) and these people marry for life.

I just don't remember near as much sympathy for Brantley despite it being still "alleged" in that there was no conviction in the records.

[Witsec1]

True. However, I'd like to see some statistics of how often child molestation evidence (specifically videos with the molester in it, molesting the children, which it appears to be in this case) is faked/planted before I adjust my terminology.

I agree the conspiracy theory seems unlikely. What seems more likely to me is that there could be some third party involved who had been abusing her while she was still a juvenile and coerced her into being an accomplice in the molestation of the other children.

But that is rank speculation.

I'm really, really skeptical of the gang rape story though.

ETA: I'm not skeptical that she was raped. I just think it was not a case of stranger rape.

[dianapavelovna]

I agree the conspiracy theory seems unlikely. What seems more likely to me is that there could be some third party involved who had been abusing her while she was still a juvenile and coerced her into being an accomplice in the molestation of the other children.

But that is rank speculation.

I'm really, really skeptical of the gang rape story though.

ETA: I'm not skeptical that she was raped. I just think it was not a case of stranger rape.

This is what I'm thinking. I've done a bit of research on juvenile sex offenders - and although she's 18 and legally an adult I think plenty of the psychological profile still applies - and I find it hard to believe that she would document her offenses on her own.

[Deleted03]

I realized that it is "alleged" in both cases. I was not commenting on that either way and I didn't say "so-and-so is a child molester". I was just saying that we had little more info on Disharoon than we do on this young woman, and we reacted quite differently. I seem to recall that there were some court documents that were found on Disharoon, though. . . I can't recall it all.

I worded my skewering sentence inaccurately: I should have said "deservedly so" about the contact of his fiance, because I did support that as there were court documents that backed up some of that stuff (again, if I'm remembering correctly) and these people marry for life.

I just don't remember near as much sympathy for Brantley despite it being still "alleged" in that there was no conviction in the records.

Maybe the difference - on top of the obvious gender inequality which I totally admit to - is that P is in prison and Disharoon... did he get to prison?

[Witsec1]

Sometimes I think a lot of the people on Free Jinger are so (rightfully) angry about injustice towards women and about women and girls being held to a different standard than men and boys, that they sometimes forget to hold women to the same standard as men themselves. I cannot see anything that makes this young woman different than the hundreds of thousands of male child molesters who were raised in screwed up environments and probably sexually abused themselves. She should be held to the same standard as a man in the same circumstances.

I'm not holding her to a different standard because of her gender.

If this was a young boy from an ATI family who had been raped, sent to an abusive school because he became a "problem", and then exiled from home again, I would see all that as extenuating circumstances. I don't think I have a double standard because of gender.

As far as we know, Disharoon did not have a traumatic history like that. He also came here and told us to STFU, and that never goes over well.

I admit that it would be harder to have sympathy for an older person who was a sexual predator, regardless of gender. So call me an ageist.

[Deleted03]

I'm not holding her to a different standard because of her gender.

If this was a young boy from an ATI family who had been raped, sent to an abusive school because he became a "problem", and then exiled from home again, I would see all that as extenuating circumstances. I don't think I have a double standard because of gender.

As far as we know, Disharoon did not have a traumatic history like that. He also came here and told us to STFU, and that never goes over well.

I admit that it would be harder to have sympathy for an older person who was a sexual predator, regardless of gender. So call me an ageist.

was disharoon the guy with the suit that never gave anything who was going to marry a young QF? and that some of us send the links to the papers to the family and we were called by all sorts of names?

[debrand]

Also, I think that if the first that we heard about the Disharoon case was that he had been possibly gang raped and sent to an abusive reform school, there would have been more sympathy toward him. It might not be her gender that is causing a different reaction but the fact that we know more about the abuse that she suffered. That doesn't excuse her actions. Chances are Disharoon-if he is guilty- suffered abuse also. We just don't know it. Whether it is right or wrong, knowing about a person's past does tend to humanize them.

[debrand]

was disharoon the guy with the suit that never gave anything who was going to marry a young QF? and that some of us send the links to the papers to the family and we were called by all sorts of names?

Yep. That was Disharoon.

[Witsec1]

And, seriously, whatever happened with Priscilla, wtf is up with that Christmas post on Jacqueline's blog. I just cannot imagine the mentality behind that. It's like they just dropped her out of their family and are going to pretend nothing happened.

[valsa]

If this was a young boy from an ATI family who had been raped, sent to an abusive school because he became a "problem", and then exiled from home again, I would see all that as extenuating circumstances.

I just don't buy it. If it were a boy who'd been sexually abused (I'm going with that because I feel that the gang-rape in this case is more in the "alleged" column than she is at this point), sent to a school that acts as a home for young sexual offenders (which sounds like its policies would be identical to the abusive school this woman was sent to), then exiled from the home to protect the younger children (which I'm sure this woman's parents thought they were doing when they exiled her for her bad behavior), I don't think he'd be viewed the same way.

Whether it is right or wrong, knowing about a person's past does tend to humanize them.

True. But I also think people want to humanize female offenders more than male ones.

[medievalist1980]

Didn't the court papers show that Disharoon was accused sometime between age 13-17? So the same age as Priscilla or even younger. I believe in his case it was that the lawyers delayed the actual court proceedings for a decade.

also, if we heard about this a decade from now and that priscilla was engaged to be married, we might send her husband a similar message and she might give us a similar STFU.

[Deleted03]

I just don't buy it. If it were a boy who'd been sexually abused (I'm going with that because I feel that the gang-rape in this case is more in the "alleged" column than she is at this point), sent to a school that acts as a home for young sexual offenders (which sounds like its policies would be identical to the abusive school this woman was sent to), then exiled from the home to protect the younger children (which I'm sure this woman's parents thought they were doing when they exiled her for her bad behavior), I don't think he'd be viewed the same way.

True. But I also think people want to humanize female offenders more than male ones.

well there are both ways to look at it, either we try to ask for fair trial for the next ATI guy who's barely 18, gang raped, sent to reform school (although Hepisbah and all are usually for women) and in pics with kids or we all cry evil without trying to see where adults failed them before.

It all is speculation since we did not meet a similar case with Disharoon, so this is all a moot point to a certain extent.

Because men and women are treated differently in ATI, I'm not sure you could have a male Priscilla.

[Witsec1]

I just don't buy it. If it were a boy who'd been sexually abused (I'm going with that because I feel that the gang-rape in this case is more in the "alleged" column than she is at this point), sent to a school that acts as a home for young sexual offenders (which sounds like its policies would be identical to the abusive school this woman was sent to), then exiled from the home to protect the younger children (which I'm sure this woman's parents thought they were doing when they exiled her for her bad behavior), I don't think he'd be viewed the same way.

True. But I also think people want to humanize female offenders more than male ones.

I was speaking for myself. I'm pretty sure I would view the cases the same. I didn't "skewer' Disharoon when he came here, btw, or assume that he was guilty. I may have pointed out that his reaction was not helping his case.

If you think the school just took away her laptop and phone, you haven't been reading along. She was beaten with a paddle, told she was responsible for her rape/abuse, etc. etc. It was one of those horrible IFB reform schools. Yes I would have sympathy for any child treated that way, I find your assumption that I wouldn't pretty offensive.

[Witsec1]

Didn't the court papers show that Disharoon was accused sometime between age 13-17? So the same age as Priscilla or even younger. I believe in his case it was that the lawyers delayed the actual court proceedings for a decade.

also, if we heard about this a decade from now and that priscilla was engaged to be married, we might send her husband a similar message and she might give us a similar STFU.

I have said multiple times that i don't understand how Disharoon's case became public. Juvenile records are usually not public, and that is a practice I support. I don't know what your point is with the last sentence. If Priscilla came here and behaved like a jerk and threatened to sue us because we were talking about stuff that is a matter of public record, my opinion of her would change to accomodate those facts about her behavior.

[valsa]

Because men and women are treated differently in ATI, I'm not sure you could have a male Priscilla.

Why does it have to be an ATI family? Are there not other types of families that are sufficiently similar in dysfunction to be able to make the comparison?

Part of the problem of tunnel vision is that your field of view is so narrow that you shut yourself off from ever having to find an applicable situation to compare this to. Especially when you just admitted that you'd only consider a male from a situation that you don't think could ever produce such a male.

If you think the school just took away her laptop and phone, you haven't been reading along. She was beaten with a paddle, told she was responsible for her rape/abuse, etc. etc.

If you think that kind of thing doesn't happen in Youth Sex Offender Treatment Facilities, you probably have no experience with them.

As for being offended, feel free. You specifically may feel the same but experience with FJ as a whole (invoking the Hive Vagina here) shows that we're much more likely to sympathize with women than men (even when the situations they're in are very similar)

[medievalist1980]

My post didn't show up, that was weird.

Flora, while i know we can't predict the future, i just think it is understandable - though horribly ill-advised - of Disharoon to tell us to STFU and I could see someone in a similar circumstance, like Priscilla, doing that, but i wouldn't hold it against her (though i would think it demonstrates immaturity at the very least). As for the court records, perhaps Disharoon was 18?

[Witsec1]

Why does it have to be an ATI family? Are there not other types of families that are sufficiently similar in dysfunction to be able to make the comparison?

Part of the problem of tunnel vision is that your field of view is so narrow that you shut yourself off from ever having to find an applicable situation to compare this to. Especially when you just admitted that you'd only consider a male from a situation that you don't think could ever produce such a male.

If you think that kind of thing doesn't happen in Youth Sex Offender Treatment Facilities, you probably have no experience with them.

It should not happen. Ever. Not in private religious facilities and not in taxpayer-funded Treatment Facilities. It's wrong.

As for being offended, feel free. You specifically may feel the same but experience with FJ as a whole (invoking the Hive Vagina here) shows that we're much more likely to sympathize with women than men (even when the situations they're in are very similar)

Well, you're free to think that, but you haven't really made a case for your assertion. You asserted that this case was similar to Disharoon's, and they're not comparable.

Edited to fix quotes.

[haveapicniclife]

Regarding the rape, I got the impression that she didn't tell anyone until the inflammation/infection later. She was probably in shock and may have gone home unnoticed and showered. We already know their general mindset regarding modesty and sex, so she may have felt justified in hiding it.

The blog mentions that she went to 5 hospitals and no one could figure out what was wrong. The 6th ER called home within 30 minutes asking for the father to come quickly. Maybe she finally told someone at that point?

I doubt the family reported it, they may not have even believed her. Maybe they thought she was promiscuous and asking for it. Who knows.

Maybe Fundiefun can help shed some light on this.

[darkplumaged]

What is the source of the information on the rape?