Gender-Neutral Bathrooms

[clibbyjo]

So what's so difficult about using the bathroom that fits the parts you currently have? If you have male parts use the men's bathroom. If at some point you get your male parts changed to female parts then use the female bathroom, etc.

Most female to male transgender people are going to dress like and look like men even if they don't have the "parts" yet. A trans woman to man with facial hair in mens clothing is not going to feel comfortable in the woman's room.

[CanadianHippie]

So what's so difficult about using the bathroom that fits the parts you currently have? If you have male parts use the men's bathroom. If at some point you get your male parts changed to female parts then use the female bathroom, etc.

Easy, if you identify and live as female but have male parts and go into the men's room you have a very good reason to fear for you life. Male to female transgender people have died because they walked into the wrong bathroom with the wrong person in there.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Most female to male transgender people are going to dress like and look like men even if they don't have the "parts" yet. A trans woman to man with facial hair in mens clothing is not going to feel comfortable in the woman's room.

And people also aren't going to feel comfortable with him. I think people should be able to use the washroom that reflects how they identify, not the parts they have. But they can't always get away with that without recieving judgement. And what about the person i know who identifies as neither male nor female? What is that person supposed to do? Not everyone fits into the "man" or "woman" identity, even if you're talking about identity and not actual parts.

[Shirley MacLaine]

So what's so difficult about using the bathroom that fits the parts you currently have? If you have male parts use the men's bathroom. If at some point you get your male parts changed to female parts then use the female bathroom, etc.

For trans people, shit like this can be life and death.

[lizzy]

I feel pretty strongly about this issue because one of my best friends is a trans boy. If he goes into the women's room, which fits his biological sex, he risks getting reported by women who feel he shouldn't be there. If he goes into the men's room, he risks rape. So I would like for him to feel safe when doing something as simple as going to the bathroom. That's just me.

That being said, I do think having all three kinds of public bathrooms is a good compromise. I understand people not being comfortable using the restroom with the opposite sex, but I think eventually society needs to get over it. However, at this point in time, I get that it probably makes a majority of people uncomfortable.

ETA: My trans friend hasn't undergone a full sex change, so yes, I'm guessing he uses tampons.

Personally, I do not think we need gender neutral bathrooms to make transgendered feel more accepted. The portion of the population that are transgendered is so miniscule that I do not feel it warrants the cost and effort to install third bathrooms everywhere. Once they have undergone the treatment, they should be able to use the bathroom of their assigned gender without issue.

I will add my voice to the minority and state unequivocally that I would NOT use a gender neutral bathroom. I don't think that makes me any more intolerant, or prejudiced, or whatever.

ETA: Don't men's rooms have stalls? I thought they had private stalls for taking a crap. Can't a trangendered always use them if he is a woman without the ability to pee standing up yet?

[Guest Anonymous]

lizzy, I believe that you're confused because wtfrenchtoast is using the pronouns that fit her friend's gender identification. He is a man because he's trans, but he has two X chromosomes. If one wants to be respectful, one uses the pronouns that fit a person's identity.

Sex = hardware. Gender = software.

wtfrenchtoast please correct me if I'm wrong.

[wtfrenchtoast]

Maybe this is just the scientist in me, but I find that statement to be fundamentally wrong. Bioloigically, he is a female. Do a chromosomal check, which is what determines biological gender, and you will find two X chomosomes, NOT an X and Y. His brain may be wired for a boy, thus he feel's he is a boy, but biologically he is a girl.

Personally, I do not think we need gender neutral bathrooms to make transgendered feel more accepted. The portion of the population that are transgendered is so miniscule that I do not feel it warrants the cost and effort to install third bathrooms everywhere. Once they have undergone the treatment, they should be able to use the bathroom of their assigned gender without issue.

I will add my voice to the minority and state unequivocally that I would NOT use a gender neutral bathroom. I don't think that makes me any more intolerant, or prejudiced, or whatever.

Lissar, you're right.

That's exactly what I said. The women's room fits his biological sex. Which is female. He feels that his gender, however is male, and would feel more comfortable in the men's room.

So what happens in the time that they're transitioning and haven't completed treatment? Or decide never to undergo any kind of treatment, like Dylan Scholinski? I agree that installing third bathrooms everywhere is too costly, which is why I think bathrooms everywhere should be gender neutral. At least one everywhere. I get that a lot of people are uncomfortable with that, but that can change. I don't think you're intolerant or prejudiced, I just think you don't understand how scary the situation is for a trans person. Something as simple as going to the bathroom can cost them their lives.

[Guest Anonymous]

I have no problems with uni-sex, single hole bathrooms. I also would not use a gender neutral bathroom room unless it had stalls that went ceiling to floor and built so there weren't any cracks between the wall and door panels. The locks would also have to be functioning. More than likely I would just stop going to places that only offered gender neutral bathrooms. If that meant changing where I shopped, what restaurants I ate at, etc., then so be it. But I'd probably also go online and give negative feedback to the place or fill out a comment card just so they'd know why I would no longer be visiting their store/restaurant/whatever.

[wtfrenchtoast]

I have no problems with uni-sex, single hole bathrooms. I also would not use a gender neutral bathroom room unless it had stalls that went ceiling to floor and built so there weren't any cracks between the wall and door panels. The locks would also have to be functioning. More than likely I would just stop going to places that only offered gender neutral bathrooms. If that meant changing where I shopped, what restaurants I ate at, etc., then so be it. But I'd probably also go online and give negative feedback to the place or fill out a comment card just so they'd know why I would no longer be visiting their store/restaurant/whatever.

I agree with that, but I would like that change in public bathrooms period. Like emmiedahl said, I don't really think public bathrooms are safe places at all, unisex or not. The measures you listed here would make me feel better about them in any setting.

[lizzy]

Lissar, you're right.

That's exactly what I said. The women's room fits his biological sex. Which is female. He feels that his gender, however is male, and would feel more comfortable in the men's room.

So what happens in the time that they're transitioning and haven't completed treatment? Or decide never to undergo any kind of treatment, like Dylan Scholinski? I agree that installing third bathrooms everywhere is too costly, which is why I think bathrooms everywhere should be gender neutral. At least one everywhere. I get that a lot of people are uncomfortable with that, but that can change. I don't think you're intolerant or prejudiced, I just think you don't understand how scary the situation is for a trans person. Something as simple as going to the bathroom can cost them their lives.

You are correct I misread.

So you think we should redesign our bathrooms in this country to soothe 1/2 of 1% of our population who are transgendered? What about the vast majority of our population that would be greatly opposed to this? Sometimes having a disability means acknowleging that things may not always go as you would like them to.

I'm sorry, but life is scary for all of us for different reasons. We are all at risk for various tragedies in our lives for the simple fact that we exist and interact with others.

[Terrie]

I'm fine with gender neutral bathrooms. I've used them in many place. No big deal. As for the question of assault, well, I doubt a sign on the door is going to do anything, and even if it did, what about same sex assault?

I do agree that they should basically be tiny rooms with a toilet off a main washing area, but I think ALL bathrooms should be like that, because then I wouldn't have to wrry as much about someone stealing my bag while I pee.

[wtfrenchtoast]

I don't necessarily think we should redesign every public bathroom in the nation. That's not feasible. But I do think they should be increasingly integrated into public places for the general populace to get used to the idea. I would like to get to a point where peolpe no longer feel they need segregated bathrooms.

[jaelh]

one aspect of this discussion that (I might have missed?) doesn't seem to have been brought up:

this isn't just a trans thing. Basically, by asserting the male/female toilet distinction we're simply reinforcing the "two gender" split. Where do intersex people fit on this spectrum? And what about those that don't identify as either male or female?

Some intersex people assert a m/f gender ID, many others assert the right to simply "be intersex". Even if you think performing trans (that is, changing appearance, clothing, maybe surgery etc.. as opposed to feeling as though you're in a wrong body) is a choice - intersex quite simply isn't. Why are we compelling people who are biologically neither male or female to fit into our binary system?

And before we start with the "it's such a small group it doesn't matter" - http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency. There are varying 'conditions' that are identified as intersex, making it much, much more common that you would think.

I would like to get to a point where people no longer feel they need segregated bathrooms.

You can see from this thread for many women it's a fear issue, right? Not an access issue, for the most part? I think that's the hard part - it's humans that are the problem, not the bathrooms! (if that makes sense :) )

[Alecto]

Here is what I don't get...

Why is it a bad thing to have all three? There are needs for a "one seater" gender neutral bathroom, as well as needs for segregated bathrooms. I am happy my university has all three.

I live in co-ed university housing. Our bathroom situation is simple- each apartment style suite has their own bathroom. In the dorms that have community bathrooms, they are single toilet, sink, shower affairs lined up kind of like a truck stop. This, to me, is a perfect solution.

I think in large facilities and buildings, having several one seater gender neutral bathrooms that are also handicap accessible is a blessing to many different groups.

I'm passionate about this, as a handicapped woman and someone who dated a transgendered man for many years. I think that society should look at the bigger picture and see that this is beneficial to more than just transgenderd people.

[emmiedahl]

A lot of disabilities are rare, but we still accommodate them. How many visually impaired people will be using the drive-through ATM? Yet it still has Braille on it so obviously the rare person finds themself needing it. We make this huge deal about gender, to the point where people suggest a 5 year old wait in a hall so as not to see a woman undressed. I'm not trying to bring up an old argument, merely to suggest that our society makes gender too big of a deal.

I don't mind making accommodations that only mildly inconvenience or irritate me. I think having more private stalls (with floor to ceiling barriers) would resolve any safety issues.

[Alecto]

A lot of disabilities are rare, but we still accommodate them. How many visually impaired people will be using the drive-through ATM? Yet it still has Braille on it so obviously the rare person finds themself needing it. We make this huge deal about gender, to the point where people suggest a 5 year old wait in a hall so as not to see a woman undressed. I'm not trying to bring up an old argument, merely to suggest that our society makes gender too big of a deal.

I don't mind making accommodations that only mildly inconvenience or irritate me. I think having more private stalls (with floor to ceiling barriers) would resolve any safety issues.

Totally want to chime in on "drive thru ATMS with braille."

Most companies make one standard ATM keypad for both walkup and drive up ATMs. Hence why they have braille. Also, visually impaired folks use drive up ATMs all the time, since most of us have friends and family who drive.

[CanadianHippie]

Personally, I do not think we need gender neutral bathrooms to make transgendered feel more accepted. The portion of the population that are transgendered is so miniscule that I do not feel it warrants the cost and effort to install third bathrooms everywhere. Once they have undergone the treatment, they should be able to use the bathroom of their assigned gender without issue.

There is so, so much wrong with that.... "the portion of the population is so minuscule" and "once they have undergone treatment"? Really, first, the portion of the population is larger than you think it is. Second, most of these people don't "undergo treatment" because it requires some very, very expensive surgery. Third, even a transgender person who has not or is not going to change their assigned gender deserves the respect of not being shuttled into a mold based on what equipment they have between their legs. And finally, things are not as simple as boy or girl, male or female. There are plenty of us who identify as one of various genders at any given time with no expectation that the identity will stay that way, and those who identify as no gender what so ever.

[Alecto]

Trans surgery is also very dangerous, especially FTM bottom surgery.

[wtfrenchtoast]

one aspect of this discussion that (I might have missed?) doesn't seem to have been brought up:

this isn't just a trans thing. Basically, by asserting the male/female toilet distinction we're simply reinforcing the "two gender" split. Where do intersex people fit on this spectrum? And what about those that don't identify as either male or female?

Some intersex people assert a m/f gender ID, many others assert the right to simply "be intersex". Even if you think performing trans (that is, changing appearance, clothing, maybe surgery etc.. as opposed to feeling as though you're in a wrong body) is a choice - intersex quite simply isn't. Why are we compelling people who are biologically neither male or female to fit into our binary system?

And before we start with the "it's such a small group it doesn't matter" - http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency. There are varying 'conditions' that are identified as intersex, making it much, much more common that you would think.

You can see from this thread for many women it's a fear issue, right? Not an access issue, for the most part? I think that's the hard part - it's humans that are the problem, not the bathrooms! (if that makes sense :) )

Yeah, I do get that it's fear. Which is why I think the three-bathroom compromise like Alecto said is good. My comment about having only unisex bathrooms is an ideal, and I realize that. But some people don't even think having three different bathrooms everywhere is necessary. We can't group every person into just male or just female.

[emmiedahl]

Totally want to chime in on "drive thru ATMS with braille."

Most companies make one standard ATM keypad for both walkup and drive up ATMs. Hence why they have braille. Also, visually impaired folks use drive up ATMs all the time, since most of us have friends and family who drive.

Good point. I did not mean that the ATMs should not have Braille, it is just something that always makes me wonder. Do you get out of the car to use it even though you are in the drive thru lane, or do you have the driver do it for you (in which case the Braille is still not necessary, although I can understand why they would just have one ATM style that is used in all situations)?

[CanadianHippie]

Lissar, you're right.

That's exactly what I said. The women's room fits his biological sex. Which is female. He feels that his gender, however is male, and would feel more comfortable in the men's room.

So what happens in the time that they're transitioning and haven't completed treatment? Or decide never to undergo any kind of treatment, like Dylan Scholinski? I agree that installing third bathrooms everywhere is too costly, which is why I think bathrooms everywhere should be gender neutral. At least one everywhere. I get that a lot of people are uncomfortable with that, but that can change. I don't think you're intolerant or prejudiced, I just think you don't understand how scary the situation is for a trans person. Something as simple as going to the bathroom can cost them their lives.

I miss being 14, I could walk into whatever bathroom I felt like and people would just assume I was the right gender. Now I'm stuck with the ladies room 100% of the time, and it is uncomfortable to walk in there when you feel male. Just as any of those here who are saying "why can't they just" would feel uncomfortable if they walked into the opposite gender's bathroom.

[CanadianHippie]

Good point. I did not mean that the ATMs should not have Braille, it is just something that always makes me wonder. Do you get out of the car to use it even though you are in the drive thru lane, or do you have the driver do it for you (in which case the Braille is still not necessary, although I can understand why they would just have one ATM style that is used in all situations)?

Around here drive through ATMs are pretty much deserted and I've never seen a directional sign so I always assume the driver would pull up with the passenger side at the ATM in the case of something like a visually impaired person.

[CanadianHippie]

Trans surgery is also very dangerous, especially FTM bottom surgery.

And poses a high risk of losing all sexual feelings. Imagine that, you fall for someone, want to sleep with them and feel nada...

[emmiedahl]

I love drive-through ATMs! I don't want to leave my kids in the car, nor do I want to get them all out... I like drive-thru anything!

About reasonable accommodations: I tend to go overboard. I do not ever want anyone to feel unwelcome or inconvenienced because of a gender issue, a disability, or really anything else. I admit that I would probably do anything to make someone in that situation feel more included, even if it bordered on the ridiculous, so I am probably not the one to ask about these things. :) Some people have a hard enough time in life, I want to be the 'easy' person in their day, kwim?

[Boogalou]

Another group that would greatly benefit from gender neutral bathrooms are people with opposite sex caregivers, like elderly people who may need assistance in the bathroom, especially from their children. Also, children with opposite sex parents. Basically, I think they are a really good idea, but in addition to segregated bathrooms, that way everyone wins.