Gender-Neutral Bathrooms

[pomology]

Cuz I don't want to deal with that with a guy in the room? I like privacy and a stall with large gaps on the bottom just doesn't cut it for me.

What the fuck does that have to do with tampons, though?

[Constance Vigilance]

Transgender people have been killed for using the "wrong" bathroom. This is a link to really disturbing article about two teenagers beating a transgender woman into a seizure for using the "wrong" bathroom in a McDonalds: http://unicornbooty.com/blog/2011/04/23 ... mcdonalds/ An employee videoed the whole thing - without trying to help - and later defended their actions because the woman 'went into the Ladies bathroom knowing she was a man', so she deserved it.

If you think your personal preference is more important than preventing incidents like this, that's unfortunate, but you're wrong.

[CanadianHippie]

Just as a resource. Transgender is a general classification for anyone who identifies as one of the following:

Transsexual

Androgynous

Pangender

Bigender

Crossdresser

Drag queen/king

Gender queer

Person living as the other gender

Third gender

Agender

And there maybe others I'm forgetting.

They all mean different things, some maybe comfortable using the bathroom of their biological sex every time, some may only feel comfortable with it some of the time, some only feel comfortable with the bathroom of the gender identity, some have no gender they identify with and (as Elphaba said) have nowhere they feel comfortable.

[Olivia]

Transgender people have been killed for using the "wrong" bathroom. This is a link to really disturbing article about two teenagers beating a transgender woman into a seizure for using the "wrong" bathroom in a McDonalds: http://unicornbooty.com/blog/2011/04/23 ... mcdonalds/ An employee videoed the whole thing - without trying to help - and later defended their actions because the woman 'went into the Ladies bathroom knowing she was a man', so she deserved it.

If you think your personal preference is more important than preventing incidents like this, that's unfortunate, but you're wrong.

Well, I don't think gender neutral bathrooms ARE going to prevent incidents like that, so it's sort of a moot point. While I don't have an issue with there being gender neutral bathrooms (like the family bath someone mentioned earlier, which I've seen often recently and think is a fantastic idea), I do have an issue with converting all bathrooms.

I don't think that it was AT ALL about the bathroom she used; it was about the fact that she was transgendered in the first place. The bathroom was an excuse, but they could just as easily have started hassling her about her appearance or just followed her out into the parking lot to attack her. They were looking for an opportunity to attack her. The bathroom itself was irrelevant.

I've seen that video before, though, and it makes me sick. I know someone called 9-1-1 in that scenario, at least, but I can't imagine not intervening. All those people just standing around... I'm 2 months pregnant right now and I'd like to think I'd still have tried to intervene, because I'd rather risk my own health and well-being and that of my (much-wanted and precious) fetus, than watch someone be beaten almost to death.

But, as a rape survivor myself, walking out of a bathroom stall and seeing a man there means I *know* I'm in danger and it's time to fight. I was raped in a bathroom. So yeah, I don't think I'm "wrong" for my personal preference not to constantly feel like I'm in physical danger or to be triggered into reliving my rape again. Especially since when someone argues that, "Transgendered people risk being raped by men in the bathroom, so we need gender netural bathrooms", it seems like this solution just leads to "Transgender people and women being raped by men in the bathroom."

[Constance Vigilance]

But, as a rape survivor myself, walking out of a bathroom stall and seeing a man there means I *know* I'm in danger and it's time to fight. I was raped in a bathroom. So yeah, I don't think I'm "wrong" for my personal preference not to constantly feel like I'm in physical danger or to be triggered into reliving my rape again. Especially since when someone argues that, "Transgendered people risk being raped by men in the bathroom, so we need gender netural bathrooms", it seems like this solution just leads to "Transgender people and women being raped by men in the bathroom."

That is a good point I hadn't considered. I really want for everyone to be safe.

[Boogalou]

Just a question for those in favour of gender neutral bathrooms: are you in favour of only gender neutral bathrooms or gender neutral bathrooms in addition to gender segregated bathrooms?

Here is what Transgender Law Center has to say about the bathroom issue (boding mine):

Problem 2: Lack of appropriate restroom accessibility

Many transgender and gender non-conforming students have no access to bathrooms. Some are told to use the bathroom that does not correspond to their gender identity. Many are expelled from school because the school does not know where the person should use the bathrooms.

Recommendation 2: Gender appropriate restroom accessibility

All students have a right to safe and appropriate restroom facilities. This includes the right to use a restroom that corresponds to the student’s gender identity, regardless of the student’s sex assigned at birth.[4] Requiring the student to ‘prove’ their gender (by requiring a doctor’s letter, identity documents, etc.) is not acceptable. The student’s self-identification is the sole measure of the student’s gender.

Problem 3: Lack of gender neutral bathrooms

Often transgender and gender non-conforming students do not feel safe in either the men’s or women’s restrooms. Many students are harassed in both women’s and men’s restrooms – because they are perceived to be sufficiently stereotypically feminine or masculine.

In a transgender focus group, the Gay Straight Alliance Network found that the lack of safe bathrooms is the biggest problem that gender non-conforming students face. For instance, “One youth wouldn’t use the restroom at school. Instead, he would cross the street to a restaurant and use the men’s room there where people didn’t know he was biologically female.â€[5]

“For transgender and gender non-conforming people, the lack of safe bathroom access is “the most frequent form of discrimination faced but the least acknowledged by policy makersâ€[6] Even in San Francisco, many transgender and non-transgender people have no safe places to go to the bathroom - get harassed, beaten, and arrested in both women’s and men’s rooms. Many avoid public bathrooms altogether and develop health problems.

This sounds like a big problem to me. Obviously, I do not want to solve it by creating ONLY gender neutral bathrooms that is going to create a whole new set of problems for women. I just think that there needs to be gender neutral washrooms in addition to gender segregated ones.

Also, I just found this: http://transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/PIP ... 0Guide.pdf It's called "Peeing in Peace" and is really interesting. I definitely recommend you read it if you have some time.

[pomology]

But, as a rape survivor myself, walking out of a bathroom stall and seeing a man there means I *know* I'm in danger and it's time to fight. I was raped in a bathroom. So yeah, I don't think I'm "wrong" for my personal preference not to constantly feel like I'm in physical danger or to be triggered into reliving my rape again. Especially since when someone argues that, "Transgendered people risk being raped by men in the bathroom, so we need gender netural bathrooms", it seems like this solution just leads to "Transgender people and women being raped by men in the bathroom."

Although I'm strongly in support of gender-neutral bathrooms, I do think they need to be presented along with an alternatives like single sex bathrooms or one-hole complete with a sink etc. (but still gender neutral, because I have NEVER understood the point of one-hole sex segregated bathrooms) bathrooms.

I mentioned that at my school a lot of dorms have gender-neutral bathrooms, which was always subject to a vote, with the most "conservative" vote winning. In larger dorms, which have multiple bathrooms per floor and the rule was that there had to be a bathrooms that representative everybody's personal wants/needs. Although my floor had two gender neutral bathrooms and one women's room, I used the women's room because it was the one closest to me. A few time I saw men in it and even though I really don't mind gender-neutral bathrooms, it annoyed me because somebody clearly wanted this bathroom to be women only and I didn't like the lack of respect for that.

So I think that there should be bathrooms that allow everybody to feel safe.

[pomology]

Boogalou-

I think that ideally there would be gender neutral multi-stall bathrooms in addition to gender-neutral one-hole sink-included bathrooms for those uncomfortable with multi-stall gender-neutral situations. But that is something that I would slowly implement in newer building and not something that I would try and impose on all existing situations.

[Alecto]

So, I had an idea for what I think might actually be a good design for a gender neutral multi-toilet bathroom that could actually encompass what everyone has said here, at least. The design is a mix between "one seaters" and multistall.

The concept is a room with a series of small rooms that have toilets in them, and a common area with sinks, mirrors, ect. The "potty closets" would have full walls, locking doors, so that there would be complete privacy and also, imho, be a safe place in case you came in and something felt off - you could go in, lock the door and call 911. There could be 2-3 larger ones for use for families or the handicapped.

Best of both worlds, and space efficient.

[ChunkyBarbie]

I am all for gender-neutral bathrooms, family bathrooms, and gender bathrooms. I don't see any reason to switch to all gender-neutral bathrooms. It would never occur to me that someone using a g/n bathroom was Trans. I would assume the g/n bathroom was either closer, cleaner or available IF I assumed at all. I have been known to use the men's bathroom at sporting events, but overall I like to pretend I don't have bodily functions around men I don't know. ;)

[Rosa]

I'm not arguing with Olivia's feelings on seeing a man in the bathroom, but I will argue with whether a single-gender bathroom is ACTUALLY safer, instead of just feeling safer. I still think if you set up a few similar buildings with mixed vs. segregated bathrooms, the gender-neutral ones would be safer because they'd be more populated. The least safe room of any type is one that's least-watched and least-used.

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm not arguing with Olivia's feelings on seeing a man in the bathroom, but I will argue with whether a single-gender bathroom is ACTUALLY safer, instead of just feeling safer. I still think if you set up a few similar buildings with mixed vs. segregated bathrooms, the gender-neutral ones would be safer because they'd be more populated. The least safe room of any type is one that's least-watched and least-used.

Here's an awful story from a few years back to illustrate the point. The off-duty cop was in the men's room at the time, but didn't arrive in time to save the woman who was stabbed to death in the ladies room.

Ally Zapp was on her way home to Newport, Rhode Island from a charity event in Boston when she stopped at the rest area on Route 24 around midnight. Burger King employee and repeat sex offender Paul Leahy, 40, watched and waited as Ally entered the women’s bathroom. According to police reports and a later confession by the killer, when Ally opened the door to leave the restroom, Paul Leahy stood in the doorway with a knife in his right hand and shoved Ally back inside the women’s room. Ally pleaded with Leahy, and then fought for her life as he repeatedly stabbed her. In the nearby men’s room, off-duty state police lieutenant Stephen O’Reilly heard Ally’s last muffled scream. As he approached the women’s room door, he saw red puddles. With his gun drawn, he stepped inside to find Paul Leahy standing next to the sink covered in blood.

[Olivia]

Here's an awful story from a few years back to illustrate the point. The off-duty cop was in the men's room at the time, but didn't arrive in time to save the woman who was stabbed to death in the ladies room.

Ally Zapp was on her way home to Newport, Rhode Island from a charity event in Boston when she stopped at the rest area on Route 24 around midnight. Burger King employee and repeat sex offender Paul Leahy, 40, watched and waited as Ally entered the women’s bathroom. According to police reports and a later confession by the killer, when Ally opened the door to leave the restroom, Paul Leahy stood in the doorway with a knife in his right hand and shoved Ally back inside the women’s room. Ally pleaded with Leahy, and then fought for her life as he repeatedly stabbed her. In the nearby men’s room, off-duty state police lieutenant Stephen O’Reilly heard Ally’s last muffled scream. As he approached the women’s room door, he saw red puddles. With his gun drawn, he stepped inside to find Paul Leahy standing next to the sink covered in blood.

That's another very specific situation, though, where there was someone in that scenario who could and would have helped.

In a world where, like in the previous story, a McDonald's worth of people stood around and watched a woman being beaten nearly to death, I don't feel like I'm going to be safer just because there are people around. I believe I'm safer if I have more opportunities to monitor for danger and react to it myself rather than relying on the kindness of others, because human beings are sometimes heroic and caring, and sometimes... not. And their behavior seems, to me, very unpredictable.

I wonder if there's some actual data regarding gender-neutral vice gendered bathrooms that we could look at rather than just anecdotes, though. I'm not a big fan of just pitting feelings and anecdotes against each others (though obviously, I have some strong ones on this one). I'll have to take a look for it.

But I still think the best option is M/F/GN bathroom options so all have an opportunity to use a bathroom that feels right/safe to them.

[JenniferJuniper]

That's another very specific situation, though, where there was someone in that scenario who could and would have helped.

In a world where, like in the previous story, a McDonald's worth of people stood around and watched a woman being beaten nearly to death, I don't feel like I'm going to be safer just because there are people around. .

Yes, the Burger King story is a specific one. But so is the McDonald's worth of people story you reference. People do sometimes stand around and do nothing (I'm reminded of a very old Phil Ochs song, Look outside the window there's a woman being grabbed, they've dragged her to the bushes and now she's being stabbed. Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop her pain. But Monopoly is so much, I hate to blow the game.)

With that said, however, there is usually much more safety in numbers as potential perps prefer to attempt their crimes in isolation where there is a much greater likelihood of completion and escape. Rapists and murderers can enter an empty ladies room with no difficulty. And statistically speaking, if there is one general restroom accessible to all patrons, the odds of someone walking in to potentially assist a victim or dial 911 are doubled.

[Patsy]

On gender neutral bathrooms making rape more likely: disabled stalls are almost always gender neutral. Unless what I've read is wrong, disabled people are more overrepresented in sexual assault statistics than any other group. So if we're talking about funding and space and what we can be bothered doing, perhaps there should be a massive outcry for male disabled and female disabled bathrooms to go along with the male other and female other bathrooms?

On nursing: A lot of shopping centres have men's loo, women's loo, disabled loo, parents' room. The parents room has a bench, a microwave, a few armchairs - no changing tables or little toilets, that's not what it's for. I suppose there are some places that would consider putting in a gender-neutral bathroom without enough demand to bother putting in a parents' room too, though.

[dawbs]

Well, just about anywhere is preferable to nursing in a bathroom...but I know at my workplace, before they put in a lactation room (yay, lactation room!), finding someplace that was semi-private and had a place to sit was next to impossible--but the 'lounge' in the 'lobby' of the women's restroom was perfect--I actually think that might have been, way back when, what it was designed for.

I think disabled people being overrepresented in sexual assault is not going to be causative w/ restrooms; I'd guess it's causative with being disabled.

[Patsy]

I think disabled people being overrepresented in sexual assault is not going to be causative w/ restrooms; I'd guess it's causative with being disabled.

Oh absolutely, sorry, wasn't meaning to imply that. I just meant to point out that women, as a class, and disabled people, as a class - kind of similar in that sense. So when you're talking about sexual assault and gender neutral bathrooms, if you think those bathrooms would make it so easy, shouldn't disabled bathrooms not be gender neutral?

[dawbs]

Oh absolutely, sorry, wasn't meaning to imply that. I just meant to point out that women, as a class, and disabled people, as a class - kind of similar in that sense. So when you're talking about sexual assault and gender neutral bathrooms, if you think those bathrooms would make it so easy, shouldn't disabled bathrooms not be gender neutral?

From that POV, probably. And it makes sense that way.

But from a caregiver POV, neutral restrooms, pease!

I know my gramps, when my grandma started going downhill, was at such a loss to help her in public restrooms--he was to much 'the gentleman' to enter a laddie's room and she wouldn't go into a men's room...it ended up being that the home health-aids or one of us had to go along for them to leave the house.

(Hell, last time my husband and I took gramps out for the day, we had that problem--I went into the men's room to help lift gramps back into his chair (it needed 2 people) and he wasn't happy about it. I can't take him out anymore, I'm not physically strong enough :cry: )