Gender-Neutral Bathrooms

[Chrystal-J]

'trannys', ouch

That's what the ones I knew called themselves...what are they supposed to be called (the politically correct version)?

[jaelh]

That's what the ones I knew called themselves...what are they supposed to be called (the politically correct version)?

'tranny' has long been used as a slur - it's one thing for a group to appropriate a derogatory name, it's another for someone outside that group to use the word. it's a bit like saying.. my black friends call themselves niggers or my sex worker friends call themselves ho's, so it's ok for me to call other people in those groups the same name.

trans*/transpersons etc. in preference

[Chrystal-J]

I see. It's okay for them to call themselves a slur, but not an outsider. I've never understood that concept, but duly noted. Thanks for the info.

[luckylibrarian]

Twenty years ago or so, public buildings like malls and restaurants did not have a large single "family restroom." Now, many buildings offer a family restroom because builders and owners recognized that having a large public single gender restroom was inconvenient and potentially unsafe. As a female, I never felt comfortable sending my young son into a men's room alone (where he potentially could be molested,) nor did I feel comfortable bringing him in to a restroom full of women. The family restroom eliminates risk and discomfort.

What we are talking about here is the same kind of thing. One group feels a sense of risk and discomfort with the current single-gender restrooms. In the past, businesses have made adjustments to reassure patrons with similar concerns. It is not unreasonable to expect them to start taking steps to do that with transgender folks. As someone else said, a gender neutral restroom can be necessary for a number of situations. Instead of thinking it as a restroom just for transgender folks, think of it as a restroom for people who, for whatever reason, cannot safely use a large single-gender restroom. I suspect that a business that offers a gender neutral restroom in addition to the traditional restrooms will find an increase in business - from transgender people, parents of young children, and other people that need that type of accommodation. When my son was young, I frequented businesses that offered a family restroom because it minimized the hassle.

To quote the old book: Everybody poops. No one should have to fear for their safety when nature calls.

[Rosa]

I wouldn't be comfortable as a potential parent with the idea of my daughter or son being in the same rest room as those of the opposite gender especially as children. Call me old fashioned, but I'm not for the idea. I have no problem with those who are trans using the restroom as the gender they pass for/feel they are, but I don't like the idea of just coed bathrooms.

Fundiefun, at least around here, the ladies restrooms are FULL of little boys. People have called me out on letting my little boy go in the men's room ever since I started doing it - sometimes I think he'll be 12 before some mom doesn't give me shit for letting him go in a room full of STRANGE MEN. Like they think child rapists are all hiding in the (well-camera'd) bathrooms at Target.

[lizzy]

:roll:

Twenty years ago or so, public buildings like malls and restaurants did not have a large single "family restroom." Now, many buildings offer a family restroom because builders and owners recognized that having a large public single gender restroom was inconvenient and potentially unsafe. As a female, I never felt comfortable sending my young son into a men's room alone (where he potentially could be molested,) nor did I feel comfortable bringing him in to a restroom full of women. The family restroom eliminates risk and discomfort.

What we are talking about here is the same kind of thing. One group feels a sense of risk and discomfort with the current single-gender restrooms. In the past, businesses have made adjustments to reassure patrons with similar concerns. It is not unreasonable to expect them to start taking steps to do that with transgender folks. As someone else said, a gender neutral restroom can be necessary for a number of situations. Instead of thinking it as a restroom just for transgender folks, think of it as a restroom for people who, for whatever reason, cannot safely use a large single-gender restroom. I suspect that a business that offers a gender neutral restroom in addition to the traditional restrooms will find an increase in business - from transgender people, parents of young children, and other people that need that type of accommodation. When my son was young, I frequented businesses that offered a family restroom because it minimized the hassle.

To quote the old book: Everybody poops. No one should have to fear for their safety when nature calls.

Except that the percentage of the population with young children is drastically larger than the percentage of the population that identify as transgendered. And maybe I'm missing something, but is there a huge number of assaults going on in bathrooms that I am unaware of? You are all making it sound as if public restrooms are full of hate groups ready to pounce on the next gay, lesbian, trangendered, intersex person to walk through the door.

This seems to me like certain people feel they are little special snowflakes needing special treatment.

[Vex]

I think they're a good idea. Handicapped bathrooms are always gender neutral (where I live, anyway), so it can obviously work. It would elimate some issues, like with transpeople or even just people that don't look gender-normative. I know of a very strange person who randomly decided to start cross-dressing (they're a straight man and he wasn't doing it because he was trans), because of this ridiculous theory that 'tomgirls' would be attracted to men who are 'in touch with their feminine side' (10 + internets if anyone knows the identity of this person!). He insisted on using the female restrooms when in drag, and it deeply upset a lot of women.

Just out of curiosity, do gender-neutral bathrooms have urinals, or does everyone use a stall?

[Boogalou]

Ah yes, the "special snowflake" argument, my favourite one. How about some statistics:

- 2-5 % of the population experience some degree of gender dysphoria [1]

- A nationwide survey of bias-motivated violence against GLBT people from 1985 to 1998 found that incidents targeting transgender people accounted for 20% of all murders and about 40% of all policeinitiated violence [1]

-55% of transgender youth report being physically attacked. [2]

- 90% of trans youth feel unsafe in schools, part of the issue is the lack off appropriate bathrooms. [3]

And thanks for just assuming that people who feel unsafe in bathrooms are just doing it because they are special snowflakes. Here is some actual information that you did not just pull out of thin air:

Often transgender and gender non-conforming students do not feel safe in either the men’s or women’s restrooms. Many students are harassed in both women’s and men’s restrooms – because they are perceived to be sufficiently stereotypically feminine or masculine.

In a transgender focus group, the Gay Straight Alliance Network found that the lack of safe bathrooms is the biggest problem that gender non-conforming students face. For instance, “One youth wouldn’t use the restroom at school. Instead, he would cross the street to a restaurant and use the men’s room there where people didn’t know he was biologically female.â€[5]

“For transgender and gender non-conforming people, the lack of safe bathroom access is “the most frequent form of discrimination faced but the least acknowledged by policy makersâ€[6] Even in San Francisco, many transgender and non-transgender people have no safe places to go to the bathroom - get harassed, beaten, and arrested in both women’s and men’s rooms. Many avoid public bathrooms altogether and develop health problems.

They are not asking for special bathrooms, they are asking to not be harassed and assaulted. And since people are too mean and ignorant to make gendered bathrooms safe there needs to be an alternative. Also, gender neutral bathrooms benefit way more people than just trans people. They benefit parents out with their kids, adults who need assistance out with their opposite sex caregiver, elderly people who need assistance in the bathroom out with their oppositely sexed children, women who don't want to wait 400 hours in the women's washroom line, and people who do not have a completely clear and conforming gender expression. Add all those people up and it is a pretty significant portion of the population.

But really, goddamn those special snowflakes not wanting to get harassed and assaulted.

[1] http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources ... tsheet.pdf

[2] http://www.youthprideri.org/Resources/S ... ult.aspx#h

[3] http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/tlcschools.htm

[pomology]

Why does everything have to "gender neutral"? When men start using tampons, then we can go gender netrual.

I don't even remotely understand why men not using tampons is an argument about gender neutral bathrooms.

[pomology]

And then you get harrassed for being in the wrong bathroom. And maybe worse than harrassed. Dylan Scholinski, the speaker I saw, looks like a man. However, he has the biological 'parts' of a female. If he goes into the woman's room, everyone else in there would probably freak out and maybe call the police or something. If everyone uses the same room, no one has to speculate about what's between his legs.

Yeah, I mean, I have a friend who's trans and he's taking T, but he still hasn't had top surgery (which I know he is planning on getting) and hasn't had bottom surgery, which I don't know if he is planning on getting. The parts you have do not necessarily match your identity, because you are in a period of transitioning or because it's your own personal choice. Thus, just because people have certain parts doesn't mean they feel comfortable in certain bathrooms.

[lizzy]

They are not asking for special bathrooms, they are asking to not be harassed and assaulted. And since people are too mean and ignorant to make gendered bathrooms safe there needs to be an alternative. Also, gender neutral bathrooms benefit way more people than just trans people. They benefit parents out with their kids, adults who need assistance out with their opposite sex caregiver, elderly people who need assistance in the bathroom out with their oppositely sexed children, women who don't want to wait 400 hours in the women's washroom line, and people who do not have a completely clear and conforming gender expression. Add all those people up and it is a pretty significant portion of the population.

But really, goddamn those special snowflakes not wanting to get harassed and assaulted.

I agree they should not be assaulted. But special bathrooms aren't going to solve that problem.

You and I are probably just going to agree to disagree on this subject, methinks. You can use the coed bathroom. I will not.

[JenniferJuniper]

Just out of curiosity, do gender-neutral bathrooms have urinals, or does everyone use a stall?

The newer, large ones I've been in have at least one large handicapped stall, a few stalls with urinals, and the rest with toilets. And they aren't really stalls, more like tiny rooms. No gaps in the bottom or sides.

Think of it from a time usage efficiency standpoint: Stalls in mens rooms go unused much the time while across the hall, women are waiting in line. And transsexuals aside, they also make sense for parents with opposite sex kids, and there can be more room for the diabled to navigate. They are more expensive to build in an established place, but if it's a new building, space can be better utilized. And only one room needs to be monitored and cleaned.

The ones I've used (and again, they've been in newly built or renovated buildings) actually provide much more privacy than what we're accustomed to.

[Boogalou]

I agree they should not be assaulted. But special bathrooms aren't going to solve that problem.

You and I are probably just going to agree to disagree on this subject, methinks. You can use the coed bathroom. I will not.

I didn't say that there should ONLY be gender neutral bathrooms, I meant that they should offer them in addition to gender segregated ones. And sure, gender neutral bathrooms will not eliminate assault but they will make trans people feel more comfortable and able to use bathrooms in public spaces. It will go a long way to making them safer. Did you read any of the links I posted? One of the main issues trans people face is the lack of appropriate bathrooms, this is not being a special snowflake, it is being a human being. You also have to factor in people that identify as neither male nor female. What kind of bathroom do you want them to use?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Good point. I did not mean that the ATMs should not have Braille, it is just something that always makes me wonder. Do you get out of the car to use it even though you are in the drive thru lane, or do you have the driver do it for you (in which case the Braille is still not necessary, although I can understand why they would just have one ATM style that is used in all situations)?

I can't speak for blind people, but as someone who doesn't drive and lives in the US, I go to drive through ATMs all the time, standing in line on foot or on my bicycle in the big line of cars, because that's the only ATM in the area. Very frequently.

As for the uncomfort in bathrooms, as unsensitive as it may be to say it, I think a lot of the true awkwardness happens with people who aren't quite passing as the sex they're aiming to be (yet). Regardless of what's in your pants, if the rest passes, no one is going to question anything going into the door, and then once you're in, there's the stall, where no one is going to see your parts.

I am not trans, so I can't speak for them either. But, at my work while I've been here we have had two people transition (without changing jobs, which has to take some courage). We got a mail from HR about the change in status, and that was that, including that the bathrooms used would change (we don't have any unisex bathrooms in the building). For a while, yeah, it was awkward. Interesting thing (to me) was that the men were more skeeved out about the newly transitioned man using the men's room than the women were about the reverse (we had one person go each way). But after a while, as things progressed and both people morphed appearance enough to truly pass, the awkwardness largely went away, and new employees have no idea of those peoples' previous identities and don't think anything of it. Even knowing those people from before, at this point I can't imagine them as other than who they are now.

[darkplumaged]

As for the uncomfort in bathrooms, as unsensitive as it may be to say it, I think a lot of the true awkwardness happens with people who aren't quite passing as the sex they're aiming to be (yet). Regardless of what's in your pants, if the rest passes, no one is going to question anything going into the door, and then once you're in, there's the stall, where no one is going to see your parts.

This is what I'm thinking. If, when clothed, you look basically like a man or a woman, you can probably get away with using the bathroom for people of the gender you identify with.

I have no problem at all with stores, restaurants, and other facilities providing a gender-neutral bathroom, as long as it is not the only bathroom. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of going to the bathroom alongside a man; I would not do it except in the most dire of circumstances. And I am not that shy about bodily functions: my husband and I use the toilet in each other's presence every day. I just will not do it if some unknown dude is in the next stall.

[Mompom]

I take my teenage son with significant special needs into the ladies room because sometimes there is no other option. But I would rather not share with men a large public room with many stalls. I do hope no one ever says anything. I clean up after my son if I need too, and I know he's safe since he's operating at about a 2 year old level. I'm sure at some point someone will say something, but I live in a midwestern state that is "live and let live". So far, no one has made a peep about it.

[Lainey]

I have no problem whatsoever with "one-hole" gender-neutral bathrooms. Better than waiting when there's an unused bathroom right next door. However, if we're talking a big room with a bunch of stalls, then...that really sounds like my own personal idea of hell. I have IBS and because of that, I don't even like to use bathrooms with other women. I LOVE bathrooms that are just one toilet and sink in a room. I also love bathrooms where the stalls are basically their own little rooms, but I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with that same setup being gender-neutral.

[bionicmlle]

I just want to say how much I <3 the Free Jingers.

I have been in many a fight about transgendered and intersexed folks -- In fact one of the most heated and ongoing arguments in our home, for a long time, had to do with this issue. I feel *VERY* strongly that no baby/child should have their genitals altered if they are born intersexed and although DH felt *VERY* strongly about circumcision (he is quite against it despite being circumcised himself) he did not agree with me and vice versa. I was brainwashed by our pro-circumcision american culture and he was brainwashed in a similar way, as well.

Although we don't have children (and not decided yet, for those of you who commented on my "to conceive or not to conceive" thread) we NOW agree that, no matter WHAT their genitals are/look like we will NOT surgically alter them in ANY WAY unless a medical necessity. We all deserve the right to alter our sexually responsive organs in our own timing, with our own wishes and accepting the risk as an individual.

ETA! yay! I'm the sin in the camp... again :)

[bugsy]

I think a potential compromise would be a gender neutral bathroom with stalls, like previously described in the thread, and then a seperate single person bathroom. I imagine that set up is not the cheapest option but I think it would solve most every objection to gender-neutral bathrooms.

[QueenMother]

When I was in college co-ed dorms has just begun. My university had one of the first co-ed floors and while there were male and female bathrooms/showers no one cared much and students used which ever one was closer when they needed to use one.

My first year I lived in the female only dorm, but my second year I moved to a co-ed dorm separated by floors. It was a shock for me as I had grown up pretty much fundie style. Thankfully my parents were all about education and unlike most of the girls from our church, we all were expected to go on to university.

By my 3rd year I spent the summer following the Grateful Dead, and over fundie anything.

The only thing I do not like about open bathrooms is when the toilet seat gets left up, but I deal with that in my own home with a husband and sons.

[Chrystal-J]

I don't even remotely understand why men not using tampons is an argument about gender neutral bathrooms.

Cuz I don't want to deal with that with a guy in the room? I like privacy and a stall with large gaps on the bottom just doesn't cut it for me.

[Chrystal-J]

agree they should not be assaulted. But special bathrooms aren't going to solve that problem.

You and I are probably just going to agree to disagree on this subject, methinks. You can use the coed bathroom. I will not.

Although I have had to use a co-gender bathroom in the past (at the bar), I'd prefer not to. So, I will probably be in disagreement with many on this thread too.

[Constance Vigilance]

I don't like gender-neutral bathrooms, and would really prefer not to have them. But someone's right to avoid being harassed, assaulted or attacked* trumps my right to feel 100% confortable every minute of the day, and that's the end of that.

*The transgender murder rate in America is 1 in 12. Think about that for a minute

[Rowan]

So you think we should redesign our bathrooms in this country to soothe 1/2 of 1% of our population who are transgendered? What about the vast majority of our population that would be greatly opposed to this? Sometimes having a disability means acknowleging that things may not always go as you would like them to.

Transgendered people is just one reason why gender neutral bathrooms make sense.

It would go a long way to preventing the huge lines for women and nothing for men.

It could be a more efficient use of space.

And it would eliminate the parent with the opposite gender child who may be too old to go with parent but is kinda too young to go by self issues.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I can't speak for blind people, but as someone who doesn't drive and lives in the US, I go to drive through ATMs all the time, standing in line on foot or on my bicycle in the big line of cars, because that's the only ATM in the area. Very frequently.

As for the uncomfort in bathrooms, as unsensitive as it may be to say it, I think a lot of the true awkwardness happens with people who aren't quite passing as the sex they're aiming to be (yet). Regardless of what's in your pants, if the rest passes, no one is going to question anything going into the door, and then once you're in, there's the stall, where no one is going to see your parts.

I am not trans, so I can't speak for them either. But, at my work while I've been here we have had two people transition (without changing jobs, which has to take some courage). We got a mail from HR about the change in status, and that was that, including that the bathrooms used would change (we don't have any unisex bathrooms in the building). For a while, yeah, it was awkward. Interesting thing (to me) was that the men were more skeeved out about the newly transitioned man using the men's room than the women were about the reverse (we had one person go each way). But after a while, as things progressed and both people morphed appearance enough to truly pass, the awkwardness largely went away, and new employees have no idea of those peoples' previous identities and don't think anything of it. Even knowing those people from before, at this point I can't imagine them as other than who they are now.

I think it also has to do with if they work/go to school somewhere where people knew them as they were before, and are less likely to be tolerant. And the only trans person i know is MTF, and she doesn't pass for female just yet, because she's just started the process, but female is very much how she feels. Plus no one in her classes knows this so in there she's him and goes by a different name (we're fairly young). But at the point she's in now, she doesn't really fit in either bathroom. The other person i know identifies as genderqueer (we just met, so i'm not sure which pronouns they would prefer). But this person gave an impassioned speech on Thursday night about how they identify as neither male nor female, so no bathroom truely works for them.

I don't think these are the only people a gender neutral bathroom would benefit. They would definately benefit me who has to pee very quickly after a cup of coffee and can't stand the long lines in the lady's room. They would benefit my cousin with mental disabilities when she's alone with her dad, because she's 14 so she can't get away with going in the men's room anymore, but she can't go by herself.

Those are just examples, but this is recently something i've become passionate about since it's in talks at my school.