Patriarchy. Still shit.

[JesusFightClub]

This is going to be impolite. But seriously WTF.

I do not get why FJists, and I am calling no one out in particular, are so excited about things like a patriarchal man condescending to mansplain things to us or how cyuuuuute the wedding between a patriarch and his bride is. Squee! She got to wear a pretty dress! She has slightly more fun in her life than Sarah Maxwell does, let's all rejoice!

I thought we were generally opposed to patriarchy. Not alright with it when it's sweet looking. Not alright with it when its proponents are polite to us.

So I am asking, where does FJ stand? I know we are not a hive vagina ;) but the handslapping quotient seems to be on the up and up. There's definitely a difference between the snark board I came to know and love as a Yuku lurker and a board where being insufficiently excited over a fundie wedding dress not being a frumper or a MAN telling us MANLY FUNDIE THINGS is a problem.

I am a very black and white thinker. I may just see things in the wrong way here. But it looks a bit off to me.

Thoughts?

[Lostie]

Just a quick question, when did a man come and tell us manly, fundie things? Are you talking about knight?

Also, I agree that we're against patriarchy and just because it looks nice (a la the wedding pictures) doesn't make it better. Actually, it's when it looks nice that it's even more insidious because that's when it looks enticing. However, I think the commenting on the fundie bride & her dress was more of a comparison to other, less pleasant looking weddings. Fundies are still people, and while I hate their views (and trust me, I do), it's nicer to see them happy than miserable. Sure, the end result is the same, but it's nice to see a couple who are happy and genuinely in love rather than just getting together because they're desperate or it's expected, etc.

That's just my take on it anyway.

Definitely still hate the patriarchy though. Anyone who wants me to give up my education and force me to have children against my will is no friend of mine.

[oscar]

I think a lot of people had their own agendas in encouraging the mansplaining, to see what a certain individual would spill on certain topics.

[emmiedahl]

I think there are people here to end patriarchy as well as people here to fundie watch TMZ-style. And everything in between. I think there is room for all. You can be one of our "End Patriarchy" people.

I find the wedding posts boring compared to the other stuff, unless it is really egregious and worthy of snark.

I only hand slap people who are hand slapping others, generally. There may be examples to the contrary, but I mostly get my hackles up in those situations.

[Austin]

Absolutely agree on the patriarchy is still shit. I doubt that many FJers changed their minds due to Knight or any of the "nice" fundies that darken our doorstep. Because in the end, we all know, as LBJ once said, "Boys, I may not know much, but I know chicken shit from chicken salad.â€

[Witsec7]

KISA was initially fascinating to me in a perverse way. But his entertainment value wore off quickly.

Now the gushing like a wet sponge over the fundy wedding had smoke coming out of my ears. Fuck that woman's life, hymen and uterus were sold off for some party dresses and a dance in a pole barn. And its not just her life, its the lives of any daughters she may have, we're talking generations.

[emmiedahl]

Now, I will definitely say that I love it when they come here. If you try to engage with them on their blogs, they erase your comments or you get ganged up on by a bazillion fundies. IRL, they run or start yelling--I have felt physically intimidated at times. This results in the same lies being circulated in their community. Consider the man over on the Anderson Cooper blog right now--he is obviously unaware that the Pearls advocate abuse and has glossed over the bad parts of the book. He is being confronted with evidence to the contrary. He might argue or ignore, but he has now seen the quotes and is at least minimally aware of the fact that there is bad stuff in that book.

Ditto with the lady in the Messianic Jewish thread. She is parroting the arguments of other people, and they are getting smacked down left and right. It is a crack in the foundation of an argument that men are using to oppress her. The next time someone pulls out the "Jesus fulfilled 200 prophesies" crap, she is going to know deep down that he did not.

Last, the issue with Knight. I wanted the goods. But obviously I don't agree with him. I don't think he has a reason to believe the way he does; he has accepted arguments that were handed down to him with no critical analysis. And now he is hearing the truth: that patriarchy destroys lives and that it only works for the royalty who choose not to obey their own rules. We have planted a seed there.

Also, many of the lurkers here probably share the fundie's views. They are seeing their own beliefs challenged, and seeing them fall woefully short. So I don't mind engaging in a debate. Not at all. In fact, I think that will make more of a net difference than discussing issues without any fundie input.

[Guest Anonymous]

If you click on the usernames of some of the sympathisers on the Knight thread, and check their posting history, you will see that there are quite a few fundie-lites and fundie sympathisers who only ever post to support the fundie view.

Otherwise, yeah, we are not a hive vagina and there are all sorts of reasons that the non-fundie posters come here.

Personally, my most memorable FJ moment was the day last October when someone posted a video of the Maxwell wedding and there was a live snarkfest. I think it was what inspired me to make the shift from lurker to poster. Fundie weddings can be fun... but yeah, to snark at, not to admire, for me at least.

[Doomed Harlottt]

I'm of several minds on this.

1) I always assume it is obvious that the vast majority of us are adamantly opposed to patriarchy. So to squee over fundie wedding stuff is ironic, not an endorsement of patriarchy. It is almost a way of snarking in and of itself by trivializing what they stand for. And it's also a way of poking some fun at ourselves, for our fascination with fundie lives. There is also plenty of good patriarchy-bashing on this site to balance out the fluffier wedding posts. And you never hear anyone squee-ing over the patriarchal aspects of these weddings -- the creepy vows, the voyeuristic interest in the couple's first kiss, etc.

2) In addition to being opposed to patriarchy, I am also fascinated by those who advocate it. Therefore, it is in my interests to be friendly to patriarchal types who come over here. I want them to spill the beans!

3) I also have some sympathy for those who are brought up in this life, the daughters especially of course, but also the sons, like Knight, who don't know any better. Yes, as adults, they have a responsibility for the views they espouse, but I can always hope that they will change their minds, especially after contact with the likes of us.

BUT. There is one thought that brings me up short, and it isn't one that anyone here has brought up, I don't think. Would we be as inclined to be as friendly to folks who, say, advocated Aryan superiority or White Pride or some such bullshit? And, if not, why are we willing to be softer on those who would stomp on women than on those who would stomp on other groups?

[emmiedahl]

I would be as kind to them as I have been to TOBeliever. That is, really fucking rude. I would demand an explanation for their beliefs.

Some things I take more personally than others.

[Austin]

Again, for me, it was not the debate I had a problem with - at all. It was the sucking up. JMO.

[Guest Anonymous]

Out of interest, I looked for the wedding thread that apparently inspired this post but can't find it. The search function said:

The following words in your search query were ignored because they are too common words: wedding.

You must specify at least one word to search for. Each word must consist of at least 3 characters and must not contain more than 14 characters excluding wildcards.

So, out of curiosity, where is it please?

[JesusFightClub]

Aargh! I never worked out linkage on my smartphone but search for Peter Serven...

[Guest Anonymous]

Thank you. :)

Well, I must admit I enjoyed looking at those pics. Fabulous photograhy (for once!) and snarkworthy because it really shows the divide between the fundie rich and poor - we had a thread about a really ugly, cheap and miserable looking wedding last week, and both threads show up the same problem (that Knight's thread also illustrated): that the fundie royalty (men) have very nice, cosy lives that present a deceptive front that contrasts very sharply with real life for most that fall in the trap.

[LynnKaboom]

I'm here because I'm anti-child abuse and pro-freedom of religion. I personally don't care all that much about the weddings and stuff. The anti-patriarchy stuff... well, I'm still getting over some hang-ups from my past and while I recognize it as bad, I also don't want to go too far in the other direction and end up advocating female supremacy. Because that ends up bad too. Trust me, I know from experience. I believe in a future where everyone is equal- equal pay, equal rights, equality in general.

Also, can I just say that I really, really hate the term mansplaining? It sounds ridiculous. And squooshed-up words in general are kind of a pet peeve of mine (I also hate the word "blogosphere").

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm here because I'm anti-child abuse and pro-freedom of religion. I personally don't care all that much about the weddings and stuff. The anti-patriarchy stuff... well, I'm still getting over some hang-ups from my past and while I recognize it as bad, I also don't want to go too far in the other direction and end up advocating female supremacy. Because that ends up bad too. Trust me, I know from experience. I believe in a future where everyone is equal- equal pay, equal rights, equality in general.

Also, can I just say that I really, really hate the term mansplaining? It sounds ridiculous. And squooshed-up words in general are kind of a pet peeve of mine (I also hate the word "blogosphere").

I don't see anyone on fj advocating female supremacy?

AFAIK the opposite of inequality is equality.

[nuri]

I like looking through the wedding topics because:

1. I'm waiting for someone to beat some of the trashy weddings I've been to.

2. The bigger ones are great snark material

but sometimes it's really just that I like seeing people being happy. Even if I can't abide by what they preach, I still like seeing happy people. And I hope weddings are happy.

[emmiedahl]

I believe that the only way to make the genders equal is to either bring men down or elevate women. So, when I advocate to improve the situation of women specifically, I am not bringing men down. I am trying to avoid that by holding high standards for everyone.

There is the implication that feminists want to stomp on men. I just want to build up women. I hate the "what about the poor men?" argument because we *have* to focus on women right now.

[LynnKaboom]

I don't see anyone on fj advocating female supremacy?

AFAIK the opposite of inequality is equality.

Oh, no, I wasn't trying to say that I've seen anyone on FJ advocating female supremacy. I have, however, in the past, seen people who were trying to fight sexism end up going WAAAAAAAAAY too far in the other direction and becoming just as bad, if not worse, than the people they were against. Add in the fact that due to my past I'm already probably more wary of women than I am of men, and for a while it made my paranoid personality disorder flare up so badly. Apparently because I had male friends, I was supporting the patriarchy and that I should tell them to fuck off before they could rape me (and that's almost a direct quote). I could go on, but that would require me getting into some of the nitty-gritty details of my life and I don't think I'm ready to do that yet.

I wasn't trying to say anyone on FJ was doing that, just that I want to make sure that I do not become that way. You know, battle not with monsters and whatnot.

[Kelya]

Would we be as inclined to be as friendly to folks who, say, advocated Aryan superiority or White Pride or some such bullshit? And, if not, why are we willing to be softer on those who would stomp on women than on those who would stomp on other groups?

We went through this during some gay rights debates on the Yuku board- people being fine with people saying really hateful, homophobic bullshit because "we could teach them" and they could learn and "not everyone agrees with being gay." It sucked.

[Marian the Librarian]

Well, I posted the latest Serven wedding heads-up, and expressed the view that it appeared classier than some we've seen lately, so - guilty as charged! ;)

A number of FJers have been expressing their disappointment over the dearth of Serven Clan news these past several months, and I wanted to share my discovery. And yes, I'll also cop to my gruesome fascination and apparently insatiable curiosity about all things and people fundie. But rest assured, I proudly hold lifetime membership in the "Patriarchy and Abuse Suck" party. And no amount of elegance can disguise the truth. It's merely putting a nicer shade of lipstick on the pig.

[kpmom]

Also, can I just say that I really, really hate the term mansplaining? It sounds ridiculous. And squooshed-up words in general are kind of a pet peeve of mine (I also hate the word "blogosphere").

Me too! Whenever I hear the word "ginormous" (I guess that's how it would be spelled-gigantic and enormous put together-if it was a real freakin' word) I just want to punch the speaker.

[deelaem]

This is going to be impolite. But seriously WTF.

I do not get why FJists, and I am calling no one out in particular, are so excited about things like a patriarchal man condescending to mansplain things to us or how cyuuuuute the wedding between a patriarch and his bride is. Squee! She got to wear a pretty dress! She has slightly more fun in her life than Sarah Maxwell does, let's all rejoice!

I thought we were generally opposed to patriarchy. Not alright with it when it's sweet looking. Not alright with it when its proponents are polite to us.

So I am asking, where does FJ stand? I know we are not a hive vagina ;) but the handslapping quotient seems to be on the up and up. There's definitely a difference between the snark board I came to know and love as a Yuku lurker and a board where being insufficiently excited over a fundie wedding dress not being a frumper or a MAN telling us MANLY FUNDIE THINGS is a problem.

I am a very black and white thinker. I may just see things in the wrong way here. But it looks a bit off to me.

Thoughts?

Well, we have a new one now, determined to show us demonic women how wrong we are about the saintly Pearls. But this one isn't even pretending to be nice, so I don't think there will be a fan club for him.

But since you brought it up, I do think that there is a variety of snark that goes on here that is just plain gossipy. I've pointed it out occasionally but it usually goes over like the proverbial fart in church, if you'll pardon the expression. It's the kind of snark that involves making fun of fundies for their weight (see Josh Duggar), looks, and other things that I think are quite inconsequential when you consider the more important and downright dangerous things fundies do. I do think some comic relief is necessary, i.e. the LOLDougs. But I don't think posting extensively about looks, clothes, weddings, etc. does much to point out what's really wrong with fundamentalism.

That's just my opinion, of course.

[Austin]

I admit to having somewhat mixed feelings on the engaging with fundies (I don't having any mixed feelings on kissing their asses). After all, I was once a fundie-lite, granted not a very convinced or convincing one for the last decade before I left the church, but there were things that I believed that I realized later was part of a lot of the wrongheaded thinking in general that most evangelicals engage in, especially cradle ones. So when I think about how exactly I journeyed to a different (better, IMO) place, it was a combination of many things over a period of time that influenced me. So I can definitely see how engaging a fundie who is asking real questions and explaining their point of view and are respectful enough to listen to dissenting POV's. I guess I feel that way because I was once that person in a way. I figure if I can change, so can anybody else, because I'm not exactly a wishy-washy person.

So there is a fine line and I'm not always sure where it is. And I think for each person, some of that may depend upon triggers, which we all have. So I don't know the answer, obviously, but I think most FJers agree that patriarchy is shit and we should blame the patriarchy and take every opportunity to speak out against it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Me too! Whenever I hear the word "ginormous" (I guess that's how it would be spelled-gigantic and enormous put together-if it was a real freakin' word) I just want to punch the speaker.

Language evolves.

And 'ginormous' is not a new word, is it? I remember it from childhood in the 70s, anyway.