Bontragers/Bowers/Helferichs 13: In the Middle of Jesus’ First Relationship

[CaptainFunderpants]

On 3/18/2024 at 7:34 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

That post is why I started thinking the Bonts prefer their dad to their mom. She seems cold, strict, and just plain mean. She was their teacher and disciplinarian. I figured she was a Mrs Trunchbull type of teacher.

I don't doubt she was strict, but Chelsy did mention on her blog that when she went into (pre-term) labor with Maddy, she called her mom and asked Becky to sing to her, which Becky did. She also refers to Becky as "mom" on her own blog, and mentioned that Becky sang to them a lot as children. 'Mother' could be one of those formal writing things to show respect, while 'Daddy' is used to emphasize (pretend) how nurturing Marlin is. This is absolutely a thing in YA novels from the 80s and 90s, which may be where they got it.

It also seems like Becky and the sisters visit Chelsy a fair bit and some of the distance that the Bontrager parents maybe intended once their children got married, didn't happen as much. Particularly with John and Chelsy, I could see John heavily encouraging the Bontragers to visit often because compared to Maxhell, Bontragerland is paradise. With Allison it's different -we don't see too much, but the visits do seem less often likely because she's expected to be meek and assimilated into the Helferichs and Marlin and Becky know that and are fine with it.

[JermajestyDuggar]

25 minutes ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

I don't doubt she was strict, but Chelsy did mention on her blog that when she went into (pre-term) labor with Maddy, she called her mom and asked Becky to sing to her, which Becky did. She also refers to Becky as "mom" on her own blog, and mentioned that Becky sang to them a lot as children. 'Mother' could be one of those formal writing things to show respect, while 'Daddy' is used to emphasize (pretend) how nurturing Marlin is. This is absolutely a thing in YA novels from the 80s and 90s, which may be where they got it.

It also seems like Becky and the sisters visit Chelsy a fair bit and some of the distance that the Bontrager parents maybe intended once their children got married, didn't happen as much. Particularly with John and Chelsy, I could see John heavily encouraging the Bontragers to visit often because compared to Maxhell, Bontragerland is paradise. With Allison it's different -we don't see too much, but the visits do seem less often likely because she's expected to be meek and assimilated into the Helferichs and Marlin and Becky know that and are fine with it.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a slightly better relationship with their mother once they are grown. Mostly because they now aren’t being taught or punished for being shy all the time. Plus Chelsy was naturally outgoing. So I think she lived up to Becky’s standards pretty well in that regard. She was probably Becky’s right hand for awhile. 

Edited March 19 by JermajestyDuggar

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

compared to Maxhell, Bontragerland is paradise.

I have my doubts about that. Bontragers had better food but their level of sexism is even higher that Maxwell's. Plus they made their daughters worship their brothers in a very toxic way. And I suspect Bontragers were very agressive in "trainings".

Not saying Maxwells were better... But not worse overall.

[JermajestyDuggar]

The Bontrager parents and the Maxwell parents are extremely toxic in different ways. I guess that’s why the Bontrager Maxwell match was slightly surprising. 

[Margarita]

On 3/17/2024 at 10:35 AM, 0 kids n not countin said:

I seem to remember them, or I suppose Chelsey (is she the one who wrote most of the posts on the blog?)  always calling their mom "Mother" on the blog.  I felt it was telling about the sort of relationship the kids had and have with her.  Or it could just be me analyzing it too much.  To me referring to one's mother as "mother" in conversation sounds so cold and impersonal.  When I talk about my mom  to others or in writing I call her mum (mummy when I was a kid).  I wonder if they all call her "Mother" when addressing her.

I noticed this too, and I think I even asked on Allison's IG once (before I knew not to touch the poop). I asked something like, why do you use "Dad" for your father but "Mother", and her response was something to the effect of "each kid calls them what they are comfortable with". 

[Slm1605]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I was perusing facebook for pictures of Haley’s bridal shower - and apparently Charlie Bowers is married. His wife’s name is Pelaiah and theres pictures of her and Haley with Cassidy, Carolina, another sister, and their mum. These pictures are from ‘Aunt Pandy’s public Fb profile.

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, Slm1605 said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I was perusing facebook for pictures of Haley’s bridal shower - and apparently Charlie Bowers is married. His wife’s name is Pelaiah and theres pictures of her and Haley with Cassidy, Carolina, another sister, and their mum. These pictures are from ‘Aunt Pandy’s public Fb profile.

Pelaiah White?! That’s Heistheway’s sister. 

 

It’s definitely Heistheway’s younger sister. 

Edited March 19 by JermajestyDuggar

[JermajestyDuggar]

I wonder why Charlie and Pelaiah kept their marriage so quiet. Franicia White hasn’t posted anything about her first child getting married. She doesn’t post much anymore but I would think she would at least post that. And Aunt Pandy said she finally got to meet her. So I’m guessing a small wedding. Did they elope? I didn’t find a shower registry online.

Edited March 19 by JermajestyDuggar

[EmiSue]

I was curious at first about the name Pelaiah as I've never heard it before...but now that I know she's the sister of Heistheway, I want to high-five her and tell her she lucked out.

[HereticHick]

29 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I wonder why Charlie and Pelaiah kept their marriage so quiet. Franicia White hasn’t posted anything about her first child getting married. She doesn’t post much anymore but I would think she would at least post that. And Aunt Pandy said she finally got to meet her. So I’m guessing a small wedding. Did they elope? I didn’t find a shower registry online.

Eloped, or a shotgun wedding.   Very odd that there is nothing on Haley Paul's insta about attending her boyfriend Carver's brother's wedding or related events, and she's been public about her relationship with Carver on her Insta since at least August 23.

I think Pelaiah is only 18, based on past Insta birthday posts. [and she's labeled as age 5 in this Jan, 11, 2011 photo when they were in Guam--en route to family in Saipan, I guess: https://www.postguam.com/news/local/hyatt-regency-completes-deli-renovations/article_3f09c1f8-cce2-5a23-ad21-6c197bb551a2.html]

It happened after after Jan 7, 2023 because she ran in this Pensacola half-marathon under her maiden name: http://collaboration.crsdomain.loc.gov/ (and I assume a fundy maiden never keeps her name)

Fundies not publicly celebrating a wedding raising a lot of red flags for me--because fundies want to glorify & celebrate (heterosexual) church weddings, and these are about the only "dress-up" occasions that homeschooled stay at home women get to attend.  And we know that the Whites believe in weddings--they even travelled to at least one of the Duggar ones.

I'm going to assume that one or both families opposed this wedding and/or there is an out of wedlock pregnancy.

[JermajestyDuggar]

26 minutes ago, EmiSue said:

I was curious at first about the name Pelaiah as I've never heard it before...but now that I know she's the sister of Heistheway, I want to high-five her and tell her she lucked out.

With the birth of each White, the names got better and better. 

5 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

Eloped, or a shotgun wedding.   Very odd that there is nothing on Haley Paul's insta about attending her boyfriend Carver's brother's wedding or related events, and she's been public about her relationship with Carver on her Insta since at least August 23.

I think Pelaiah is only 18, based on past Insta birthday posts. [and she's labeled as age 5 in this Jan, 11, 2011 photo when they were in Guam--en route to family in Saipan, I guess: https://www.postguam.com/news/local/hyatt-regency-completes-deli-renovations/article_3f09c1f8-cce2-5a23-ad21-6c197bb551a2.html]

It happened after after Jan 7, 2023 because she ran in this Pensacola half-marathon under her maiden name: http://collaboration.crsdomain.loc.gov/ (and I assume a fundy maiden never keeps her name)

Fundies not publicly celebrating a wedding raising a lot of red flags for me--because fundies want to glorify & celebrate (heterosexual) church weddings, and these are about the only "dress-up" occasions that homeschooled stay at home women get to attend.  And we know that the Whites believe in weddings--they even travelled to at least one of the Duggar ones.

I'm going to assume that one or both families opposed this wedding and/or there is an out of wedlock pregnancy.

I would feel really bad for them if it’s a shotgun wedding. These fundies are nasty about premarital sex. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Here’s a picture of the other Spurgeon in fundieland:

[JermajestyDuggar]

Franicia posted on their Instagram for the first time in awhile. And it starts out saying that even though they’ve been dealing with some difficult circumstances this month…. What are those difficult circumstances? Could it have something to do with the new marriage? I hate vague posts like this. They drive me up the wall.

[EmiSue]

16 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Franicia posted on their Instagram for the first time in awhile. And it starts out saying that even though they’ve been dealing with some difficult circumstances this month…. What are those difficult circumstances? Could it have something to do with the new marriage? I hate vague posts like this. They drive me up the wall.

This is sounding more and more suspicious. What in the world is going on with this couple?

[NoseyNellie]

RE-shyness, 

years ago, before I had kids, I read an article from Oprah about how on the show and in public she was always there to meet and greet people and she would have parents regularly trying to get their young children to talk to her, shake her hand or give her a hug.  She stated often these children were resistant and parents would insist and push kids to do this.  Oprah wrote about NEVER doing this to a child- especially with a stranger.  This teaches kids they have no right to their own body and personal space, teaches them to not trust their personal intuition or gut feelings and this is where victimness can start.  

I am in admin in a LARGE church based preschool.  I know most of the childrens name and many of their younger siblings. I sit in the main entry hallway daily calling out names welcoming them to school that day and the majority say hello back, smile, wave, run over for a hi-5 or daily hugs.  I have some that I do this morning greeting/afternoon goodbye and they never reciprocate.  I am not offended, each child has to learn their comfort. 

1 little girl in particular generally comes in with Grandma and NEVER acknowledges me in the morning and Grandma and I smile and chuckle about it as we know come noon she will smile and partial wave on her way out. 

Recently mom brought her and was upset by her *rudeness* and stopped and directed her to talk to me and was upset child hid her face.  I assured mom I am not offended, she is slow to wake up to me but will acknowledge me later.  the day after timechange Dad brought her and same routine, he paused to try to get her to say hello and I waved him on saying "Oh it is WAY too early for her to acknowledge me, we don't have an early morning relationship, usually by noon we are friends, but with time change we might not be friends at all today!"

[FiveAcres]

3 minutes ago, NoseyNellie said:

RE-shyness, 

 

Recently mom brought her and was upset by her *rudeness* and stopped and directed her to talk to me and was upset child hid her face.  I assured mom I am not offended, she is slow to wake up to me but will acknowledge me later.  the day after timechange Dad brought her and same routine, he paused to try to get her to say hello and I waved him on saying "Oh it is WAY too early for her to acknowledge me, we don't have an early morning relationship, usually by noon we are friends, but with time change we might not be friends at all today!"

Rufus bless you, and I mean that with a great depth of gratitude.

[Notjean]

I know a number of kids that never learned to greet others, look them in the eye, or throw the ball back.  I think it's terribly rude.  I've really worked with my kids over the years, starting in small ways with a greeting.  Eventually they've learned to return or initiate  a greeting, look people in the eye, and throw the conversational ball back.  It's a really important tool for working with others, I think.  I don't think shyness is selfish or rude, but I do think it's really important to help kids learn over time to say thank you, hello, and goodbye along with other skills.  While the age for acquiring certain skills may be different for different families or children, eventually kids do benefit from being polite. Just my 2 cents. 

Edited March 23 by Notjean

[HereticHick]

9 minutes ago, Notjean said:

I know a number of kids that never learned to greet others, look them in the eye, or throw the ball back.  I think it's terribly rude.  I've really worked with my kids over the years, starting in small ways with a greeting.  Eventually they've learned to return or initiate  a greeting, look people in the eye, and throw the conversational ball back.  It's a really important tool for working with others, I think. 

Speaking as someone who is helping raising a young autistic relative, this is a more complex topic that you might think. It takes a lot of hard, persistent work by family members, teachers, and professional therapists to get this kid to a level where folks like you don't automatically label them as "Terribly Rude."

Are these things really important for social interactions? yes. Are these skills lacking in many kids who spend too much times in front of screens? yes.  Are these things often much more difficult for neurodivergent humans? Also yes.

 

 

[Mrs Ms]

I have kids that are generally pretty outgoing, so I do encourage the “yes, no, please, thank you, hello, goodbye” while physically touching them* if they feel shy for a bit. Nothing else though. And absolutely not at all if they are upset.
But many kids are much more introverted than my kids and I would never push them to suddenly speak up in public, especially while feeling shy. Neurodivergent is a WHOLE different story.

A kid parroting the right words because it’s been drilled into them can be a lot less sincere than a shy smile, an enthusiastic wave, a very gentle touch or a look of awe on the face of a child that is fully immersed in a situation.

Of course some kids have simply not been taught manners, but a little observation should make it clear.

 

*physical touch from me is very calming for all of my kids.

[JillyO]

Young kids learn by imitation. So if you want your kids to say hello, goodbye, please, and thank you, then model it for them. Greet them when they come in. Thank them for helping you load the dishwasher. Say “please” when you’re asking them to do something. That’s how they learn to do these things intrinsically. Not by us constantly telling them to “say thank you” or “it’s rude not to say hello.” 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I wonder if Liz reads here. I don’t recall she’s ever posted anything like this before. 

[HereticHick]

Charlie and Pelaiah Bowers, from Haley Paul's (Carver's fiancee) public Instareel:

[JermajestyDuggar]

The Bowers family seem to be happy to have Pelaiah in the family. So maybe the only side of the family who has an issue with the marriage is the Whites. 

[HereticHick]

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

The Bowers family seem to be happy to have Pelaiah in the family. So maybe the only side of the family who has an issue with the marriage is the Whites. 

The Bowers family may be happy--but not enough to acknowledge the marriage on social media. When Aunt Amanda came up from Tampa for a shower for Carver's bride-to-be, there certainly could have been some sort of celebration for Charlie and his bride as well--but as far as well can tell there wasn't. I really think if there had been any sort of party or ceremony, Carver's fiancee would have posted about it, unless she was explicitly told not too.

Poor Pelaiah, no matter what a poor choice this marriage might be, is only 18 and I feel sorry that she didn't even get any shower gifts.

[browngrl]

My guess on the reason for the Charlie + Pelaiah wedding circumstance? 

I'm going old school traditional - a "seven month" full term looking baby arriving soon. 😜