Harry & Meghan 11: She's a Scarab Beetle

[Antimony]

22 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Shades of gray are not in your wheelhouse?

I don't know if this is directed (like, genuinely, honestly, no sass) but since I've used this turn of phrase recently here, I only mean that I don't have a full enough perspective to get to the heart of British sentiment on some of these issues because I'm coming from an American perspective. I would hope shades of grey and nuance, at least seeing them, are in my wheelhouse even when I feel that I personally come down pretty clearly on one side or another. 

I think it's pretty clear that there are nuances between American and British attitudes towards celebrity culture and as that relates to the BRF and digital and print media practices. I don't know that I can differentiate all those differences from my perspective, but I think they're worth talking about. 

[Jackie3]

1 hour ago, Coconut Flan said:

Shades of gray are not in your wheelhouse?

Well, I can see that both Meghan and Kate are imperfect people with many good qualities. Is that what you mean?

[samurai_sarah]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

It’s no big deal when Kate holds Wills hand. When Meghan holds Harry’s,  it shows a sad desperation.

No one, but you, made an issue of any of it.

[adidas]

I think that Harry’s statement regarding what he is (or isn’t) wearing to the funeral was very gracious.

Neither he nor Andrew are working royals, just my imo but they should either both wear military uniform or they both should not. I know the argument is that one is HM’s son and the other her grandson so unequal in status, but it feels gross to me that Andrew is allowed to whilst Harry is not. Yes I know that Harry chose this path of not being a working Royal, and Andrew fought it kicking and screaming (the filthy, whiny, pathetic pedophile) so I understand that it’s a sticky situation. 

Anyway I thought Harry’s response was respectful and classy.

[tabitha2]

I want to believe at his core somewhere beneath all the drama and problems and foolish choices Harry still has the Dignity and Sense of respect and decorum he was raised to value and actually knows when to be Prince Henry not California Harry. 

[Jackie3]

On 9/11/2022 at 6:51 PM, tabitha2 said:

You know Jackasstrophie is going to be even more insufferable when Kate starts walking 3 paces behind William per protocol because Apparently happy couples constantly cling to each other and have hand sex in public. 

I love this name, it's so funny! But "catastrophe" actually ends in an "e", not an "ie." So technically you are misspelling my name! LOL

A young couple in love ("hand sex" to some)

[tabitha2]

Nah. You are more of a Jackalope. 
 

I knight thee lady Jackalope of Troll manor. 
 

 

 

[Jackie3]

2 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

Nah. You are more of a Jackalope. 
 

I’ll let you make that call! 😊😊❤️ I am honored, you are the best!

Edited September 14, 2022 by Jackie3

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, adidas said:

I think that Harry’s statement regarding what he is (or isn’t) wearing to the funeral was very gracious.

Neither he nor Andrew are working royals, just my imo but they should either both wear military uniform or they both should not. I know the argument is that one is HM’s son and the other her grandson so unequal in status, but it feels gross to me that Andrew is allowed to whilst Harry is not. Yes I know that Harry chose this path of not being a working Royal, and Andrew fought it kicking and screaming (the filthy, whiny, pathetic pedophile) so I understand that it’s a sticky situation. 

Anyway I thought Harry’s response was respectful and classy.

I have only glanced at the news on this, but I believe that Andrew will not be allowed to wear military dress except for the final “Vigil” —and it has been stated he will be allowed “out of respect for Queen Elizabeth.”

To me this suggests that the Queen planned it that way. (Probably long before Andrew’s disgrace.)  A lot of the details about the funeral and mourning were discussed with/ planned by Elizabeth.  Maybe when Elizabeth planned the vigil, she specified that her children would be wearing their military uniforms. At that time, there was no thought that Andrew would lose his right to wear a uniform.  At the time, likewise, nothing may have been said about what the grandchildren would wear because it is the children are the chief mourners.

Andrew’s “fall” came relatively recently. Elizabeth either didn’t remember (or deliberately chose not) to change that detail about the vigil.

Now, the people arranging for things to follow the late Queen’s wishes have to either go against her plan or “honor” her by finding a loophole for Andrew to be in uniform. (This appears to be that he retired from the service as a major and retired majors may wear their uniforms in certain special situations.) 

I agree, in general, that it doesn’t make sense that Harry doesn’t get to be in uniform, but I can also see why they made an exception for Andrew if there was (as I hypothesize) special mention of the Queens children being in uniform at the vigil.

Of course, I admit I may be all wrong on this.  I just like to speculate. 😉

[Jackie3]

16 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

I want to believe at his core somewhere beneath all the drama and problems and foolish choices Harry still has the Dignity and Sense of respect and decorum he was raised to value and actually knows when to be Prince Henry not California Harry. 

As I suspected he doesn't really care what he wears to the funeral. That's why he left the UK in the first place. All that pomp and circumstance doesn't matter him. He seems far happier as California Harry.

After all, who IS wearing a uniform at the Vigil?

1. A pedophile (Andrew)

2. People  who have never served in the armed forces.(Anne)

3. People who have never seen combat (Charles)

4. People who couldn't even finish basic training. (Edward)

Who wants to be part of that crowd? They're just playing dress-up.

 

IIMO, if anyone wore a uniform at the Vigil, it should be people who earned it through combat service (and who have not committed rape or any other felony)

 

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Spoiler

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Alisamer
More than 2 images must go behind a spoiler

[tabitha2]

So you are saying those veterans not in war don’t have a right to wear their uniforms or medals 

 

Gotcha.

 

Unless Andrew was groping  teenagers on his battle cruiser or in the cockpit of his jet and was dishonorably discharged he got his military credentials the usual way and is a totally separate  issue to his Epstein related behavior. 

[Loveday]

3 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

IIMO, if anyone wore a uniform at the Vigil, it should be people who earned it through combat service. 

Millions of people have served their countries in the military, and many, many of them never saw combat, even if they served ten or twenty years or more. By your reckoning, they don't deserve to wear their uniform after retirement in special situations because they didn't serve during a time their country was at war. I guess the fact that they were WILLING to stare down a tank in Afghanistan or Baghdad doesn't count to you.

Luckily, your opinion doesn't matter. My husband, and others like him, will wear their uniforms whenever the situation calls for it, because they earned that right just the same as those who saw combat. They were WILLING to serve in combat, and that's what counts. 

Personally, I don't give a shit what Andrew wears at his mother's vigil, because I don't give a shit about him. As for Anne and Edward, their situation doesn't really concern me, either, although I will say that I think Anne's devotion to her mother in this last week alone has earned her the right to wear whatever uniform has been decided upon. 

[Jackie3]

19 minutes ago, Loveday said:

As for Anne and Edward, their situation doesn't really concern me, either, although I will say that I think Anne's devotion to her mother in this last week alone has earned her the right to wear whatever uniform has been decided upon.

It's pretty disrespectful to people who have served honorably. Anne's done nothing to earn her uniform or her medals.

Do you know she's an Admiral?

And a General?

And an Air Chief Marshal in the RAF? A woman who cannot fly a plane and knows nothing about aviation?

If that makes sense to you, that's fine. I think it's terribly disrespectful to those who have actually served, in combat or not.

As for Charles, he was a terrible pilot who, after he left service, crashed an expensive plane, nearly killing the 11 people in it.  Nonetheless, he was awarded five-star ranks in all three branches of the military service.

If he had been a decent officer, fine, wear your  pretty uniform. But he was given special privileges and promotions even though he was terrible at what he did. 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Jackie3

[Loveday]

1 minute ago, Jackie3 said:

It's pretty disrespectful to people who have served honorably. Anne's done nothing to earn her uniform or her medals.

Do you know she's an Admiral?

And a General?

And an Air Chief Marshal in the RAF? A woman who cannot fly a plane and knows nothing about aviation?

If that makes sense to you, that's fine. I think it's terribly disrespectful to those who have actually served, in combat or not.

 

It's very clear you either don't understand the traditions of British royal life and the meanings behind those traditions, or you do and are determined to be deliberately obtuse about it anyway. Have at it. I'm going to watch all the events leading up to and including the funeral, and as a member of a family with a very long tradition of serving in the military (right back to an ancestor who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor), I won't be bothered by those uniforms in the least. They don't bother my husband, either. You just go on ahead with your badass self and be bothered, though, you seem to enjoy it immensely. 🙄

[viii]

People can understand it but find it dumb. That’s where I’m at. I think it’s ridiculous to have people like Anne and Edward in military uniform but I’m not going to debate about it for pages. 

[adidas]

@EmCatlyn that makes a lot of sense. Thank you! 

[Jackie3]

1 hour ago, Loveday said:

I'm going to watch all the events leading up to and including the funeral, and as a member of a family with a very long tradition of serving in the military (right back to an ancestor who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor), I won't be bothered by those uniforms in the least. They don't bother my husband, either. You just go on ahead with your badass self and be bothered, though, you seem to enjoy it immensely. 

Ok. Opinions will differ. I think they're like children playing dress-up.

Military personnel get horribly wounded, burnt or maimed in combat, and these people have done nothing at all (other than don the uniform.) Spend some time in a VA hospital and you'll see the real heroes.

[just_ordinary]

9 hours ago, adidas said:

I think that Harry’s statement regarding what he is (or isn’t) wearing to the funeral was very gracious.

Neither he nor Andrew are working royals, just my imo but they should either both wear military uniform or they both should not. I know the argument is that one is HM’s son and the other her grandson so unequal in status, but it feels gross to me that Andrew is allowed to whilst Harry is not. Yes I know that Harry chose this path of not being a working Royal, and Andrew fought it kicking and screaming (the filthy, whiny, pathetic pedophile) so I understand that it’s a sticky situation. 

Anyway I thought Harry’s response was respectful and classy.

I disagree. He could have just said nothing at all? Why does he feel the need to even get involved? Oh right, he has a MASSIVE chip on his shoulder.
Neither of those two have right to wear uniform. Neither is in active service. Neither holds an honours position that would give them another uniform to wear. Most veterans usually choose to wear the old berets or headdress with normal clothing. Or old combat clothes in private while fishing or similar stuff. 

PA could have worn uniform to the vigil (special permission) but didn’t and just wore medals. PH was never to attend the vigil- so who knows he might get a special permit when Charles dies. I am not sure if there is to be a second Vigil of the Princes at Westminster? OR are they talking about the walk from BP to Westminster, OR the funeral? Where PH would be a part of. I find it pretty unclear what events they are really talking about. And who knows, maybe KCIII. will intervene because I don’t see PA giving up anything to feel important even if it’s the right thing to do. 

Again let’s wait and see what actually is going to happen.

Let’s just hope people can conduct themselves in an appropriate manner and we won’t see clapping or cheering. Because even when it’s meant to express respect it’s utterly unsuitable. Just image acting like this at a private funeral (shudder). I just imagine what HMTQM would say about this - she had a sharp tongue - I wonder if Julian Fellows partly used her as a model for the Dowager Duchess in Downtown Abbey.

Edited September 14, 2022 by just_ordinary

[AmazonGrace]

I don't understand why Harry not being a working royal has anything to do with wearing a military uniform.

Surely there are tons of military people who wear uniforms even though they are not, and never have been,  working royals.

[rosamundi]

9 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

I don't understand why Harry not being a working royal has anything to do with wearing a military uniform.

Surely there are tons of military people who wear uniforms even though they are not, and never have been,  working royals.

As is common with all senior members of the Royal Family, Harry held various honorary ranks in the Armed Forces, senior to and separate from the service rank he achieved as a serving soldier. When he stepped back from being a working Royal, those honorary titles were returned to the Queen, and with them went the right to wear the uniform.

Separately to that, there is a rule that only people of the rank of Major or above can wear their uniform at ceremonial occasions once they have left the Armed Forces. Harry left the Army as a Captain, and therefore can't wear his uniform.

[Seahorse Wrangler]

6 hours ago, viii said:

People can understand it but find it dumb. That’s where I’m at. I think it’s ridiculous to have people like Anne and Edward in military uniform but I’m not going to debate about it for pages. 

And I'm raising an eye-brow when the Beeb talked about how the king gifted a regiment to his daughter on her 18th birthday. 

 

[just_ordinary]

@rosamundi thanks for explaining more in depth. I wish all those “experts” on tv would take the two minutes to explain it because it would take a lot of heat out of the discussion (not all of it but there is so many arguments based on non facts).

I also don’t get why Mr. I fight misinformation didn’t go down that route. Instead of harping on about his years of service he easily could have mentioned this to explain why he just doesn’t have a uniform to wear and doesn’t care because it’s not about him anyway.

Edited September 14, 2022 by just_ordinary

[louisa05]

8 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I have only glanced at the news on this, but I believe that Andrew will not be allowed to wear military dress except for the final “Vigil” —and it has been stated he will be allowed “out of respect for Queen Elizabeth.”

To me this suggests that the Queen planned it that way. (Probably long before Andrew’s disgrace.)  A lot of the details about the funeral and mourning were discussed with/ planned by Elizabeth.  Maybe when Elizabeth planned the vigil, she specified that her children would be wearing their military uniforms. At that time, there was no thought that Andrew would lose his right to wear a uniform.  At the time, likewise, nothing may have been said about what the grandchildren would wear because it is the children are the chief mourners.

Andrew’s “fall” came relatively recently. Elizabeth either didn’t remember (or deliberately chose not) to change that detail about the vigil.

Now, the people arranging for things to follow the late Queen’s wishes have to either go against her plan or “honor” her by finding a loophole for Andrew to be in uniform. (This appears to be that he retired from the service as a major and retired majors may wear their uniforms in certain special situations.) 

I agree, in general, that it doesn’t make sense that Harry doesn’t get to be in uniform, but I can also see why they made an exception for Andrew if there was (as I hypothesize) special mention of the Queens children being in uniform at the vigil.

Of course, I admit I may be all wrong on this.  I just like to speculate. 😉

This would not be accurate. A state funeral requires all who are allowed to wear a full uniform to do so. Andrew will not be wearing one for the funeral. The vigil also traditionally requires uniforms worn by those allowed. It’s likely that either Andrew is allowed by military protocol and Charles and the other siblings agreed because it is the tradition or that Charles made an exception for the sake of tradition. If the Queen had decreed it, she would have done so for both events. Andrew not wearing one for the funeral is likely due to it having a higher public profile than the vigil. If the Queen had not updated these plans, saying they should wear uniforms would not have made sense as that’s how it’s always been. She wouldn’t require something that’s already required.  

1 hour ago, AmazonGrace said:

I don't understand why Harry not being a working royal has anything to do with wearing a military uniform.

Surely there are tons of military people who wear uniforms even though they are not, and never have been,  working royals.

Veterans don’t parade around in uniforms in the UK. It’s not allowed by military protocol with a few exceptions that Harry does not meet. When he had honorary ranks, he was allowed. He no longer has those. The “working royal” thing is a nice way to keep his uncle out of uniform at the funeral as it seems exceptions apply to him due to rank and years of service (no matter what are resident troll believes). 

[rosamundi]

22 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

I wish all those “experts” on tv would take the two minutes to explain it because it would take a lot of heat out of the discussion (not all of it but there is so many arguments based on non facts).

Yes, with a lot of things, two minutes of Googling would take some of the heat out of the arguments. Two other cases in point:

• Andrew's appointment as Counsellor of State. Andrew is a Counsellor of State because there's an Act of Parliament (The Regency Act 1937) which lays out that the Counsellors of State are the monarch's spouse and the next four people in the line of succession who meet the following specifications: they must be British subjects of full age (21 years, or 18 years for the heir apparent and presumptive) who are domiciled in the United Kingdom and not disqualified from becoming monarch. The four people who meet that criteria currently are William, Harry, Andrew and Beatrice. It takes a lot to change the law and in case people haven't noticed, we've had a lot going on recently, changing the Regency Act has probably taken a back seat to *gestures broadly at everything* stuff.
• The staff getting their redundancy notices. These aren't actual "the door's that way, off you pop," letters. They're the opening stage of a process which is laid out in law when someone's job is potentially at risk, and with all the changes around Charles becoming King, the Cambridges becoming the Prince & Princess of Wales, there will be a lot of changes in the relevant offices. The law lays out quite clearly what must happen if there are risks of redundancy. Staff have to be kept informed, it's very unusual to come in one day and discover you don;t have a job. Everyone has been told that every effort will be made to minimise redundancies and those who do lose their jobs will receive more than the statutory minimum payout. Yes, the optics of when people were given the letters absolutely suck, but the timing is in line with the legal requirements.

[just_ordinary]

So no uniform for Andrew as he walks behind the coffin. Everyone can relax 🙄