Harry & Meghan 11: She's a Scarab Beetle

[noseybutt]

2 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

As @TN-peach said above, we all see what we are looking for. 🤷‍♀️ 

I came here to share about the little dog that got on the wrong side of the barrier.  Maybe he would have liked to shake hands with the royals too.

The clip of the incident can be found in this Report in The Mirror.

Now, do we think the doggie wanted Meghan or Kate to shake his hand?  Or was he eager to nip at the heels of one of the brothers? 😉

 

 

I would like to be Team Dog.

[louisa05]

Small town schools often have married couples both teaching in the same building. I’ve worked with many married couples in my 29 years in education. PDA is not allowed. All of them have managed to abide by this being professional adults and all. 
 

@Jackie3 must actually be about 15 if she really believes that PDA is necessary for a healthy relationship. 

[TN-peach]

There was that one really strange clip when they were still working royals when they were holding hands and Harry  went to shake someone's hand and Meghan was walking through a door and refused to let go and so their hands were stretched far apart.  It looked extremely awkward. 

[Jackie3]

On 9/12/2022 at 1:53 PM, louisa05 said:

PDA is not allowed. All of them have managed to abide by this being professional adults and all. 

What? Hand holding is PDA? Are the British so uptight that they'd consider holding hands to be PDA? What if you hold your friend's hand, is that sexualized too? I hold lots of people's hands!

Look, Kate and Wills looked unhappy there (perhaps they'd had a fight), and Meghan was supporting her husband. Twisting that into something else is just plain weird (and a bit icky).

You have to work really hard to make "supporting your husband as he grieves" into a bad thing. There'd be a lot of "awws" if Wills and Kate had done the same. It's the race thing again.

Plenty of PDA here. Begin criticizing.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Alisamer
More than 2 images must go behind a spoiler!

[louisa05]

1 minute ago, Jackie3 said:

What? Hand holding is PDA? Are the British so uptight that they'd consider holding hands to be PDA? What if you hold your friend's hand, is that sexualized too? I hold lots of people's hands!

Look, Kate and Wills looked unhappy there (perhaps they'd had a fight), and Meghan was supporting her husband. Twisting that into something else is just plain weird (and a bit icky).

You have to work really hard to make "supporting your husband as he grieves" into a bad thing. There'd be a lot of "awws" if Wills and Kate had done the same. It's the race thing again.

 

Yes. Married staff members do not wander around school or school events holding hands. Not the time or place. And I’m not at all sure how you can make the professionalism of not clinging to your partner like you’re both teenagers about race. It isn’t even that H&M did it Saturday. It’s that they do it all the time. And more. They had their hands in each other’s crotches at an engagement on a tour a few years ago. 
 

But your ability to lack any reason whatsoever is amazing. 

[SoSoNosy]

Again with the race thing, that nobody (NOBODY) else ever seems to notice.  William looks unhappy because he and Kate just had a fight?  It's not like there's been a death in the family or anything.  Sheesh.  Enough of the race.  (no I haven't put it on ignore because it's like a train wreck)

[Antimony]

4 hours ago, SoSoNosy said:

Is this entire troll thing just about Meghan being bi-racial???  We have been subjected to all of this for that reason??   I personally have never thought Meghan looked like she was mixed race.  I haven't seen reference here to the fact, except from you.  Nobody would give it a second thought if you didn't keep harping on and on about it.

Trolls aside (and this particular one has come for me, specifically, often, and personally, too), this has been a relatively big deal in the British tabloids and "#GoHomeMeghan" has been trending on Twitter in the UK this morning. It has become a relatively big part of Royal Watching Drama and it's...really something. Posters here may feel that they wouldn't notice or care, but it has poisoned the waters of a lot of discussion and sources on other sites and in the meatspace. 

I am not a Royal Watcher and I would need a chart reference to understand it, but it's one of the few things that has leaked into the awareness of American Non-Royal Watchers. There is probably a very good discussion to be had about how much of this is real and how much of it is driven by tabloid press having an interest in fueling any fire, no matter how small or imaginary, to sell papers. I think this is a problem with almost any publication that writes about celebrities of any stripe, but it certainly has had a real clear tilt in regards to Meghan and Harry. A lot of it is hiding behind accusations of "rudeness" and "not being sufficiently proper" but it's hard to pretend that those aren't both concepts that are culturally flexible and equally easy to weaponize. 

I come in here because while I'm not a Royal Watcher, I'm often on Twitter and the hullabaloo re: Meghan has leaked over into my Twitter circles even (which are primarily about work, activism, and Star Trek) which is usually my sign that something is going on. 

Some people definitely care that Meghan is biracial. They may not be here, but it's certainly an issue in other areas of discussion. 

4 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I ran into a couple of articles about how people are criticizing William and praising Harry all over Twitter.  Don’t know if it is true, but my first thought was that some people can’t stop.

Here was a moment when the two brothers came together to show respect for their grandmother and to reassure the public that they are still family —yet some people have to turn it into a competition between the two brothers.  It is disgusting.

I come out of lurking because also, on this point, yea. "You're Wrong About" Podcast, many moons ago, expressed a sentiment that while the Royal Family is not the most vulnerable set of people in the world (far from it), there is an argument to be made that the expectation and the treatment of the Royals could be considered a human rights violation. It felt true then when they were simply talking about raising children with high expectations of predestination and political marriages, but it feels even more true watching people in mourning not only be expected to be publicly available and consumable but to be publicly available and consumable under such heavy scrutiny over small interactions that are nearly meaningless while the same media engine doesn't bring that same scrutiny and enthusiasm to the things of substance that they do. It is...bizarre, almost cruel, to watch a grieving family and try to decode and moralize every aspect of their body language. 

Re: PDA - Again, not a Royal Watcher, not well-calibrated to this, but it seems to me that the profession of Royal Couples would almost require some amount of PDA (to avoid further media scrutiny) and that the standards for what is and isn't unprofessional or professional PDA is skewed when your job is partially to Be Seen, Have Romances That People Can Talk About, and Create Heirs. It's another way there's no way to win under this kind of media and public observation, and why it continues to be bizarre that this sort of public observation continues during what would be, for any other family on Earth, a private time. 

[prayawaythefundie]

Not sure why I‘m even doing this but here you go:

There also is a video of him stroking her hair on her back. Can‘t find it now and feel quite ridiculous for even posting this.

William and Kate have been known for very subtle PDA for years. It‘s not new, nothing has changed. The hand on the back is considered their signature move of support and reassurance. 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by prayawaythefundie

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

Yes. Married staff members do not wander around school or school events holding hands. Not the time or place. And I’m not at all sure how you can make the professionalism of not clinging to your partner like you’re both teenagers about race. It isn’t even that H&M did it Saturday. It’s that they do it all the time. And more. They had their hands in each other’s crotches at an engagement on a tour a few years ago. 
 

But your ability to lack any reason whatsoever is amazing. 

I thought Kate and William looked “solemn” (they are in mourning) but was actually surprised to see Kate’s warm smile. I saw nothing odd about their behavior to each other.

I didn’t have a problem with Harry and Meghan’s hand holding because (as you say) they do it all the time.  I thought Meghan looked less assured (kept fussing at her hair to make it lie over one shoulder) but I think that makes sense considering that this is her first appearance in GB in a long time and she prob didn’t have much time to prepare.

It baffles me that people are criticizing either couple.  They behaved slightly differently, but both were appropriate.

Can we talk about how difficult it must have been for William and Harry and how they must hate the sort of discussion we are having here? (I would hate to be a royal!)

[Alisamer]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

It's the race thing again.

It is NOT the race thing OMG. In this space you are literally the ONLY person who is mentioning race, at all. 

Everyone is trying to tell you they are different people and different couples who act in different ways. Race has literally nothing at all to do with that fact... Meghan being American likely has a much bigger influence on the differences in the way they act than race does. 

Honestly I couldn't care less about either of them, but Jackie3 is doing a really, really good job of making me sick of Meghan and Harry. (And no, that has nothing to do with race, either.)

Try calling out racism where you see it, rather than trying to paint racism onto every situation ever involving a person who happens to be bi-racial.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Alisamer

[SoSoNosy]

To Antimony, who I totally respect, but am not going to quote:  I know the British tabloids and a lot of people were and still are being totally racist, and I hate that.  My frustration toward Jackie3 is that we aren't, and we can't do anything about those who are.  We can't seem to have any kind of civil conversation without her divebombing us and harping on "it has to be the race problem" when everything isn't the race problem.  Now I will probably just put her on ignore.

 

[Antimony]

55 minutes ago, SoSoNosy said:

To Antimony, who I totally respect, but am not going to quote:  I know the British tabloids and a lot of people were and still are being totally racist, and I hate that.  My frustration toward Jackie3 is that we aren't, and we can't do anything about those who are.  We can't seem to have any kind of civil conversation without her divebombing us and harping on "it has to be the race problem" when everything isn't the race problem.  Now I will probably just put her on ignore.

 

We're good, we're good.

Also, I know it's forum language but "who I respect, but will not quote" is just striking me as funny (as I write a document [you can tell I'm working hard because I'm posting here, right??] that sometimes people open with famous quotes -- maybe I should integrate this into the citation process). I just think for a lot of people (even some with like, real interests that aren't fire stoking and willful misinterpretation), it has poisoned the waters of other parts of Royal Watching. 

I also imagine that it influences even the best of Watchers in some way, because if Meghan gets much much much more negative press, that negative press trickles down in a way that is usually not proportionate to what she did, just what they know will be a racy headline that's easy to sell. 

In any case, today's events re: Meghan have stirred up clips of Harry explaining why they left, explaining how it felt to be constantly watched, and how upsetting it was and while I know feelings are mixed, I think he really articulated very well how he had not really just a personal gripe with his family, but a gripe with the institution of the whole thing, and the expectations of it all. And I think that put them both in an impossible position because when your family is a business, the personal is professional and the professional is personal, and he articulates the danger of that blend really well in the clips circulating. Surely, the danger of that blend is the reason not only for the drama of it all, but also for why he feels that they didn't respond to his and Meghan's needs the way other families would have done, or would have been able to do. It all really seems like a Truman Show nightmare to live in but with the maddening awareness that you are on The Truman show. (It could be Lovecraftian, at a certain point of abstraction, truly.)

Edited September 12, 2022 by Antimony

[samurai_sarah]

@Jackie3

You don't get to validate my experience as a biracial person with racism in Europe.

Edited September 12, 2022 by samurai_sarah

[just_ordinary]

@Antimony while there is definitely a racist tone towards Meghan sometimes - 99.9% in comment sections and Twitter though. The #GoHome is mostly meant to say back to the US as you think we are all racist and you feel unwelcome and constantly fear for your safety. Not some “go back where your mothers ancestors came from in (presuming) Africa”. M problem was always more Anti-Americanism than anything else. That’s not saying racism and classism don’t play a part. But this was her biggest problem in terms of acceptance. That’s why they tried to frame her as practically Canadien at first.

I will be very honest, while it’s nice to see two brothers maybe starting to find their way back to each other- I really don’t think a public appearance tells us anything. And I am shocked H was even up for it. After all his talk about how he hated it as a child, is still utterly affected  and traumatised by cameras….. I doubt anyone would have taken offence if he didn’t do this so publicly or at all. The couples could have gone together later after the P&P of Wales got the official part done. Or, you know, grieve together in private. It will be hard to put that in line with new woe is me claims against the family in the future. H must be devastated that he, again, missed the opportunity to see her straight away when they came over. Obviously it took them all by surprise but at 96 there is always a chance to just drop dead. And if I would live that far away I would try to see my Granny if had such a deep relationship as he makes it out to be, whenever I am in the country. 

RE the difference in PDA. I don’t think there are any rules. Most people might feel PDA at work is inappropriate. A lot of people are not comfortable with public shows of affection in terms of constant touching or kissing. Most couple in their thirties I know don’t do it a lot. Especially if the relationship has been going on for some time. That said, everyone is free to conduct themselves as it pleases, even minor royals or not active royals. It only gets uncomfortable when H deliberately tries to get his arm/hand away and she grabs it back or doesn’t let go. Especially because he doesn’t look pleased with it. Bodily autonomy is a big thing for me and people should accept if someone doesn’t want to be touched. She is an adult and not a scared child. And if she doesn’t feel comfortable enough in those situations maybe she should sit it out. That said, this all depends on if H actually minds it and just plays along not to cause a scene. 
To me, the fact that W&K don’t do it shows me one thing very clear. They are (and never have been) not into public PDA. Aldo: Kate is the Princess of Wales (and was the Duchess of Cambridge before). She feels secure in her role and does her own thing. I don’t think her job at this event was to accompany W but it was just as much her own outing in terms of hierarchy and royal roles. I wouldn’t have been surprised to see the Walses  going separately to different locations for this if there was a second one nearby. W&K are extremely private. So what we saw was the Prince of Wales and the Princess of Wales at work and nothing else. That was a public display and we didn’t even get a glimpse of how they feel. It was FOR the public, so those people feel seen and their tributes honoured. Which also makes me doubt there has been much going on in terms of reconciliation. That was completely for the public. They might start to reconcile from there but I would hold my horses. As long as H&M put out those public jabs, whine and complain, as long as the content of private conversation gets out via their side there won’t be any trust rebuild. 

[Jackie3]

9 hours ago, Antimony said:

Trolls aside (and this particular one has come for me, specifically, often, and personally, too), this has been a relatively big deal in the British tabloids and "#GoHomeMeghan" has been trending on Twitter in the UK this morning.

You are on my profile page twice a day, looking for my latest posts. I guess you enjoy this "troll's" comments, since you are constantly looking for my latest writings! Thank you.

FYI--"Disagreeing with you" is not the same as "coming after you." . Not everyone who has a different opinion is "coming after you." 

That's the sort of thing a fundie would say, "I am being persecuted." Nope, just disagreed with.

8 hours ago, prayawaythefundie said:

There also is a video of him stroking her hair on her back. Can‘t find it now and feel quite ridiculous for even posting this.

 

That's lovely. Both couples are very affectionate with each other. I'm glad they don't listen to "protocol" and do what they need to do.

I hope you aren't implying that "back touching" is right and "hand-holding" is wrong. If so, please share a link to the royal protocol book that spells this out.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Jackie3

[AmazonGrace]

6 hours ago, Antimony said:

 

In any case, today's events re: Meghan have stirred up clips of Harry explaining why they left, explaining how it felt to be constantly watched, and how upsetting it was 

If he left the royal family because he didn't want to be watched I think it's a bit strange he chose to give interviews, to publish books about himself, and take part in a  documentary that apparently involves cameras following him and Meghan around.

Maybe he likes to be watched but more on his own terms. 

[Jackie3]

35 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

If he left the royal family because he didn't want to be watched I think it's a bit strange he chose to give interviews, to publish books about himself, and take part in a  documentary that apparently involves cameras following him and Meghan around.

Maybe he likes to be watched but more on his own terms. 

That's exactly what I was going to say. He wants to live life on his own terms. He wants attention that he can control (like a book tour), but not all the time.

[AmazonGrace]

Yeah, people who don't want any publicity behave differently.

[prayawaythefundie]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

I hope you aren't implying that "back touching" is right and "hand-holding" is wrong. If so, please share a link to the royal protocol book that spells this out.

No, I‘m not. Unlike you, I don‘t constantly need to put the perceived rivaling couple down to feel better about my favourites. I couldn‘t care less about Harry & Meghan holding hands. 

You started this comparison like you always do. Don‘t twist things again.

[Jackie3]

 

On 9/12/2022 at 9:48 PM, just_ordinary said:

To me, the fact that W&K don’t do it shows me one thing very clear. They are (and never have been) not into public PDA.

 

She's really clinging to him n some of these. 

    

Spoiler

.     

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Alisamer
More than 2 images must go behind a spoiler.

[AmazonGrace]

If we have a picture of William and Kate mutually touching each other, how do we figure that it's Kate clinging on to him and not vice versa or both?

[prayawaythefundie]

Why is this an issue? Sometimes couples touch in public, sometimes they don‘t. Some do it more, some do it less. I‘d be so annoyed if strangers started evaluating the state of my marriage by counting the seconds we touched the last time they saw us. Are we all thirteen?

[Antimony]

9 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

If he left the royal family because he didn't want to be watched I think it's a bit strange he chose to give interviews, to publish books about himself, and take part in a  documentary that apparently involves cameras following him and Meghan around.

Maybe he likes to be watched but more on his own terms. 

I mean, I would think that's fair. I think anybody would want control over how they are observed. I think most other celebrities, even the ones that talk about the stress of it all, have the ability to be watched more on their own terms and the use of social media has kind of moved a lot of their experiences away from late-90's/early-00's paparazzi dodging. For most celebrities that are expected to be some level of publicly consumable, they've managed to meet that demand through more self-managed means. The BRF seems to be one of the exceptions for this (and there's probably a meaningful discussion on whether that's just tradition, or a refusal to move forward, or a reflection of public demand, or some morphing, cloudy, in-flux combination of all three). 

It seems to me that Americans of my age group (millennials, young) have kind of come to accept and reflect that the way, say, Britney Spears was treated (most common and most dramatic example) by the paparazzi was unethical and wrong and cruel and because of that reflection, I sort have a hard time begrudging anybody wanting (reasonable) control over their own public availability and public consumption. It's also very true that there's no good equivalent in American Culture for what it means to have a Royal Family. The closest people suggest is the Kardashians (which I don't think is remotely the right comparison, because there isn't a good one). But, I think the American reflection on what the act of being publicly consumable has done to some of our biggest celebrities (again, primarily Britney has sparked this conversation in circles I float around. It's very possible the UK has had a similar self-reflection, but I would not be privy to something like that becuase well...I'm not there. Cultural perspective, blah blah blah.) has made the American attitude towards Meghan more sympathetic than the British one. (I think this makes sense, but this not my usual wheelhouse. This American reflection is, of course, not uniform but it's cropping up a lot in the circles I spend my time in that talk about media and the haze of weird things we all did in the 00's, including but not limited to low rise jeans. What was that all about?)

I would be interested in the guts of the documentary, production wise, because generally speaking it's kind of accepted that the line between ethical and unethical documentary making is that a) subjects don't get paid and b) subjects don't get input onto editing and c) subjects can withdraw consent to film at any time. I do think these things make it very different to the subject from being subjected to paparazzi. I would believe (a) and (c) were followed for any projects Harry would be on, but the crux would really be (b). 

12 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

@Antimony while there is definitely a racist tone towards Meghan sometimes - 99.9% in comment sections and Twitter though. The #GoHome is mostly meant to say back to the US as you think we are all racist and you feel unwelcome and constantly fear for your safety. Not some “go back where your mothers ancestors came from in (presuming) Africa”. M problem was always more Anti-Americanism than anything else. That’s not saying racism and classism don’t play a part. But this was her biggest problem in terms of acceptance. That’s why they tried to frame her as practically Canadien at first.

I'm aware of this and I never meant to imply, if I did, that it was in regards to any other place than her literal home in the US. 

I do think, though, that there's a certain picking and choosing of what is or isn't polite when it comes to his trending hashtag (and presumably sentiment. Caveat -- sometimes Twitter's algorithms pick up things as trending that aren't trending in meatspace, and I think that's also worth noting here). It seems to me that the people who hate Meghan the most are also the people who demand the most respect and deference to the BRF. But, in this case, that should probably manifest as just letting the BRF work that out among themselves as an internal affair if we consider this a sensitive time. 

I also don't know that I've ever heard any citation of Meghan citing that all British are racist (but I'd look at one). But, I think this is a common problem when people talk about any structural issue. A critique of a structural issue is often considered a personal attack, and we've seen this even in American responses to criticisms of the racism in our various systems.

Quote

And I am shocked H was even up for it. After all his talk about how he hated it as a child, is still utterly affected  and traumatised by cameras….. I doubt anyone would have taken offence if he didn’t do this so publicly or at all. 

I really think this is a damned if they do, damned if they don't, situation. I'm certain it would be heavily noted if they weren't publicly there. This is part of the problem of being publicly consumable in general, though. 

[Jackie3]

10 hours ago, prayawaythefundie said:

Why is this an issue? Sometimes couples touch in public, sometimes they don‘t. Some do it more, some do it less. I‘d be so annoyed if strangers started evaluating the state of my marriage by counting the seconds we touched the last time they saw us. Are we all thirteen?

It’s no big deal when Kate holds Wills hand. When Meghan holds Harry’s,  it shows a sad desperation.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Jackie3

[Coconut Flan]

Shades of gray are not in your wheelhouse?