Josh and Anna 55: Settling in at Seagoville

[Alisamer]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:37 PM, Antimony said:

Some prisons did. This is about Texas specifically, unclear if a federal or state prison. My money is on state (because the author mostly works on State and because Texas State prisons are notorious for issues).

The state of Texas is notorious for issues all around!

Those menus don't look terrible. Like, they look appropriate for when you have to feed a ton of people as cheaply as possible while making sure everyone has something they can eat. I'm a pretty picky eater and looking through it seemed like I'd at least survive on those meals. 

They're nothing special, and I wonder about the quality, but they seem... edible. 

[Antimony]

26 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

The state of Texas is notorious for issues all around!

Those menus don't look terrible. Like, they look appropriate for when you have to feed a ton of people as cheaply as possible while making sure everyone has something they can eat. I'm a pretty picky eater and looking through it seemed like I'd at least survive on those meals. 

They're nothing special, and I wonder about the quality, but they seem... edible. 

Just for funsies, using this one page, I calculated the calorie count for a random dinner. 

Tuna Salad, Baked Potato Chip, Garden Salad, Ital Dress Low Cal, Whole Wheat Bread (2) comes to 454 calories for dinner, or 621 if you add Milk as the Beverage (this is unclear). 

If this is an average calorie count per meal, it's insufficient (1863) for the recommended amount of calories per day for men (2200-3200). It's part of why commissary or store becomes so important and even fought over and a de facto economy, I think. Dudes get hungry.

As for quality, honestly, hard to say (depends, because....Texas) but most prisons are catered by the same companies that cater colleges. Sodexo caters for prisons but also for my alma mater. It's food, for sure. The difference is probably that college students are self-serve and variety is higher and I imagine the contract budget is wildly different. (Sodexo doesn't contract with any federal prisons, but it's probably decently representative of some of the contractors.) I think Aramark has gotten more flak. (Aramark also used to cater my college, and we moved from one to the other but I can't remember which we had first...?)

There was a bit of a scandal which, in my opinion, was under-emphasized in 60 Days In where a jail refused or failed to provide an undercover investigator with celiac with the property dietary modifications and essentially starved her for some days. Ultimately, she was fine because she was well, there undercover, and she had the money to buy what was gluten free from the commissary but it was so deeply screwed up. (This was Etowah County, Alabama). 

[Alisamer]

14 minutes ago, Antimony said:

As for quality, honestly, hard to say (depends, because....Texas) but most prisons are catered by the same companies that cater colleges. Sodexo caters for prisons but also for my alma mater. It's food, for sure. The difference is probably that college students are self-serve and variety is higher and I imagine the contract budget is wildly different. (Sodexo doesn't contract with any federal prisons, but it's probably decently representative of some of the contractors.) I think Aramark has gotten more flak. (Aramark also used to cater my college, and we moved from one to the other but I can't remember which we had first...?)

Oh, that makes sense. I totally didn't think of that at all - my college didn't use a company like that, they did all their own food. And catered out other events on campus sometimes, too. You could always tell when they'd had an event to cater because the next meal there would be actual fresh fruit like melon balls mixed in with the canned fruit cocktail. The food was so much better at my college than my sister's state college down the road she used to come eat with us whenever she could get away with it. 

[Sullie06]

19 hours ago, Antimony said:

Just for funsies, using this one page, I calculated the calorie count for a random dinner. 

Tuna Salad, Baked Potato Chip, Garden Salad, Ital Dress Low Cal, Whole Wheat Bread (2) comes to 454 calories for dinner, or 621 if you add Milk as the Beverage (this is unclear). 

If this is an average calorie count per meal, it's insufficient (1863) for the recommended amount of calories per day for men (2200-3200). It's part of why commissary or store becomes so important and even fought over and a de facto economy, I think. Dudes get hungry.

I actually just did an interview at the jail yesterday and when speaking the guy, we were talking about his health, and he commented that he feels like he's starving. He stated he's always hungry and unless he has money for commissary he just has to suck it up. 

[Divemaster01]

I work for a mental institution as a cook.  Agreed that the meals are not super huge there either. Most do get snacks in between the meals to supplement though.

[Jackie3]

On 8/23/2022 at 9:53 AM, Antimony said:

The difference is probably that college students are self-serve and variety is higher and I imagine the contract budget is wildly different.

Another difference. College students haven't committed crimes.

[noseybutt]

11 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Another difference. College students haven't committed crimes.

Maybe you meant to say, Are not currently serving time for convictions?

 

 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

Since the confinement is the punishment, I fail to see why making people perpetually hungry is appropriate.

[Giraffe]

9 minutes ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

Since the confinement is the punishment, I fail to see why making people perpetually hungry is appropriate.

Because the punishment isn’t just the confinement. It’s also being as inhumane to them as possible. There are a lot of things wrong with the prison system and abuses and inhumane treatment by the staff is part of what’s wrong.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Giraffe
Clarifying

[GuineaPigCourtship]

That wasn't targeted at you or anyone here who typically thinks before posting.  It's just another example where people with money don't have it as hard - they'll have family putting funds in the commissary account.

[Jackie3]

2 hours ago, GuineaPigCourtship said:

Since the confinement is the punishment, I fail to see why making people perpetually hungry is appropriate.

Making people hungry is certainly wrong. I thought we were talking about flavor and variety? College students should come before inmates in that department.

If you are that concerned about an inmate getting tasty food, reach out to help them. Do you contribute to one of the charities that donate money to an inmate's commissary account? Here's one for you to donate to:

http://www.leafministry.org/about/

I'm more concerned about the victims: the children who were beaten, the plumber whose truck was stolen and stripped, the shopkeeper who was robbed, the woman who was assaulted. Do they have flavor and variety in their diets? Do they even want to eat, or has trauma stolen that from them?

I'm surprised there are so many who care whether Josh Duggar is content with his meals.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jackie3

[Coconut Flan]

Crystal Ball is reporting that Josh now has a job at the prison as a janitor/cleaner.

All prisoners are to have jobs if possible.  I only listened to about two minutes, but she seemed to be trying to imply Josh had been jumped ahead of the line in job assignment.

[Mama Mia]

27 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Making people hungry is certainly wrong. I thought we were talking about flavor and variety? College students should come before inmates in that department.

If you are that concerned about an inmate getting tasty food, reach out to help them. Do you contribute to one of the charities that donate money to an inmate's commissary account? Here's one for you to donate to:

http://www.leafministry.org/about/

I'm more concerned about the victims: the children who were beaten, the plumber whose truck was stolen and stripped, the shopkeeper who was robbed, the woman who was assaulted. Do they have flavor and variety in their diets? Do they even want to eat, or has trauma stolen that from them?

I'm surprised there are so many who care whether Josh Duggar is content with his meals.

People were talking about how it’s wrong to have an insufficient calorie count, so that inmates go hungry. And discussion followed about how that low calorie count does lead to inequities because of needing to rely on commissary supplements. People were not worried that the inmates were not getting enough options.  In fact several people observed that the flavor and variety was either equal or superior to other institutional type meals. While a couple commented lightheartedly on how lack of coffee would be a hardship. I did idly wonder if prisons faced the same supply chain issues as public schools last year. There was some speculative discussion on that general theme. So no, no one was lamenting that Josh isn’t getting a choice between waffles and omelets and avocado toast every day. Thanks for the commissary fund donation link. That’s a very specific practical need that is often overlooked. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Mama Mia

[Father Son Holy Goat]

14 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

Crystal Ball is reporting that Josh now has a job at the prison as a janitor/cleaner

Sweeping crackers for the next 10-12 years.

[marmalade]

5 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Sweeping crackers for the next 10-12 years.

He's apparently in the prison library, so no food I'm guessing.

[Alisamer]

9 hours ago, marmalade said:

He's apparently in the prison library, so no food I'm guessing.

Hopefully while he's in there he'll pick out a book or two to read a week. He'll run out of Gothard-approved religious books super quickly I'd assume. It would be good for him to read. A lot. Widely. 

Since so far all indications are that he's going to do his time and go right back to life as normal, and it seems like he's going to remain headship from prison as much as they can manage, I hope he uses his prison time to educate himself and read a lot and listen to his fellow inmates and learn a bit about reality. And get whatever therapy and help they offer there.

I have no illusions that he's going to come out of prison a better person or not a pedo or whatever*, but if he figures out how woeful his "education" was and instructs his helpmeet to find a good Christian school for their kids, that'll be a step forward for the kids at least. 

*I would be willing to bet, however, that when he is released his prison stay is going to become part of his "testimony" and he and/or JimBoob are going to do what they can to leverage that into some sort of income. Speaking engagements, a book, whatever. 

[gustava]

Is Anna still in Texas?  Where are the children?

[Marshmallow World]

11 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Sweeping crackers for the next 10-12 years.

Spoiler

Well done!

 

 

[Antimony]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

Hopefully while he's in there he'll pick out a book or two to read a week. He'll run out of Gothard-approved religious books super quickly I'd assume. It would be good for him to read. A lot. Widely. 

The Gothard part of this does really narrow it down but I expect he would find plenty of religious books anyway. Christian reading materials were one of our most popular requests for the Women's prisons. Not the most popular request -- romance beat that, and if you pooled all the types of mental health help books together, they might pool above Christianity stuff but, still, fairly high up there. It was also one of the few things we never needed to buy more of because we got plenty of donations. We sent out a lot of Chicken Soup series for people who requested slightly more vague inspirational but still potentially spiritual stuff.

(This was also the job where I learned the word "apocrypha" because an incarcerated person wanted some of the apocrypha and I was not raised religious enough to know the word.)

All this aside, if Josh cares to read (doubtful but there's boredom for sure), count me on the side of folks who believes he's simply Going Through the Christian Motions and he would rather pick up a James Patterson paper back off the bat any day. But I agree that he may reach for things he cannot comprehend. Not only for lack of education, but for lack of pop culture. A lot of what makes reading easier, in my opinion, is having read enough other stuff to recognize plotlines and tropes and pop culture jokes or even allusions to the classics. And he has...none of that. Not a book, but what is it to watch O' Brother Where Art Thou when you've never heard of The Odyssey? I feel like Fundies run into this issue a lot.

Apologies for those without NYT access (me too, a friend had to get me a link to this) but there's an OpEd in the NYT about this exact issue that just came out: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/17/opinion/banned-books-prison.html 

Re: Calorie counts
Trolling aside, in my view, insufficient Calorie counts in prison food come from three issues here, one of which is a misstep that I'll never forgive the FDA for.
(1) The Calorie "recommendation" of 2000 kcals/day is a nonsense number that was determined by polling people on how many calories they ate a day in order to get an average for the average American. The problem is that people lie on self-report surveys and that people tend to underestimate calorie counts as opposed to the opposite. So, the number we started with was bad. The FDA proposed a "recommendation" of 2350 kcals/day from their averages but then felt that this number wasn't easily divisible by 10. The nutrition label was meant to relative to an imaginary diet, not a specific Calorie allotment, so it was important that the number this all centered around was easily divisible. They rounded down. So, when the prison industry looks at the FDA for a "2000 kcals/day", ~1860 doesn't look that short. It looks right, actually, give or take one granola bar. (And the Prison Ordering Guy isn't a nutritionist, so why wouldn't he trust the FDA on this?) But it's not. It's not ~150 Calories short, it's 500 Calories short. It's short an entire meal. It's even worse if you factor in that this should be for men, and relatively active men if we're factoring in the popularity of gym time.  It's one of the greatest failures of science communication in our time, perhaps because the goal was so lofty to begin with.
(2) Private companies having a vested interest in having a population that they can monopolize for profit through commissary. Enough said.
(3) Budgets. And this one baffles me, honestly, because while I understand that "tough on crime rah rah" is more sellable than "feed prisoners enough" it doesn't strike me as practical. The fact that commissary is so important  - because people are hungry - opens up many drivers of violence and strife that are, ultimately, more costly and difficult to COs to deal with. If a guy is so fucking hungry that he'll build you a shank for 2 packets of ramen, the cheapest and easiest answer to that is to make more food available to everybody to destroy this de-facto economy. It would destabilize the influence of pod bosses. And then, well, listen, I don't to be on the wrong side of the nicest person who is hangry, much less somebody who isn't that nice. If somebody jacks a bag of chips from you and you're starving, it's fighting time but for most people in the world, that kind of thing isn't worth physical violence. The starvation and warped economy leads to violence. It seems to me that properly feeding inmates would eliminate the sort of problems that a de facto food economy brings to the institutions, but, again, nobody is listening to me about it. 

Finally, trolls aside, the assertion that college students don't do crime is...astounding. They do. Some of it (selling the ganja, underage drinking, house party, noise disturbance, streaking, pulling pranks) is what we find to be acceptable coming-of-age crime when privileged in-group 20-somethings do it and we call criminal gang-and-drug-activity when poor out-group young people do it. Some of it is more dangerous and might be a reflection of the pressures we put on students (illegally trading their Ritalin around). And some of it is downright unacceptable (hazing, the sexual assault rate on campus). But there is a good TED talk on this as well about how we decide which reckless behaviors are criminal and which are just kids-being-kids based on a number of prejudices and how we prime some children for prison and some for college, which those children may not be all that different.

I really didn't meant to type this much. 

But I am curious as to what Crystal Ball is claiming as her source right now? For me, she's a bit of a coin flip and some of her stuff is straight up nonsense but I'm always curious if she's got a cited source or if it's just another "sources close to me" thing. 

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, Antimony said:

 

 

 

Finally, trolls aside, the assertion that college students don't do crime is...astounding. They do. Some of it (selling the ganja, underage drinking, house party, noise disturbance, streaking, pulling pranks) is what we find to be acceptable coming-of-age crime when privileged in-group 20-somethings do it and we call criminal gang-and-drug-activity when poor out-group young people do it. Some of it is more dangerous and might be a reflection of the pressures we put on students (illegally trading their Ritalin around). And some of it is downright unacceptable (hazing, the sexual assault rate on campus). But there is a good TED talk on this as well about how we decide which reckless behaviors are criminal and which are just kids-being-kids based on a number of prejudices and how we prime some children for prison and some for college, which those children may not be all that different.

 

This. 100% this.

I would be curious to hear @Sullie06 version of things as a probation officer. But in my corner of the universe, juvenile offenders on the college-track are treated way more leniently than juvenile offenders who are not college bound. Especially with sex crimes. I stepped away from taking juvenile sex cases for a period of time for several reasons but one big reason was the disparity. College bound? Out-patient therapy and your record is sealed. Not college bound? Throw the book including sex offender registration.

Stop. That. Madness. 

I will also add that casual statements about the deservingness of college students versus prisoners in the US smack of racism even though I expect that was never ever the poster's intent. But come on. The rates of young black males in prison versus college is horrifying and cannot be explained merely by crimes committed. Suburban white kids commit a shocking amount of crime but are the most likely to have access to treatment and diversion. 

 

[Sullie06]

On 8/25/2022 at 2:27 PM, noseybutt said:

This. 100% this.

I would be curious to hear @Sullie06 version of things as a probation officer. But in my corner of the universe, juvenile offenders on the college-track are treated way more leniently than juvenile offenders who are not college bound. Especially with sex crimes. I stepped away from taking juvenile sex cases for a period of time for several reasons but one big reason was the disparity. College bound? Out-patient therapy and your record is sealed. Not college bound? Throw the book including sex offender registration.

Stop. That. Madness. 

I will also add that casual statements about the deservingness of college students versus prisoners in the US smack of racism even though I expect that was never ever the poster's intent. But come on. The rates of young black males in prison versus college is horrifying and cannot be explained merely by crimes committed. Suburban white kids commit a shocking amount of crime but are the most likely to have access to treatment and diversion. 

 

I 100% see this in our area too. In terms of our juveniles, those doing well in school (because we have JDs as young as 7) or on track to attend college seem to get more leniency from the court. I can think of two recent distinct cases off the top of my head.  

Case 1: 17 YO female assaults another same age female in school over a disagreement online. The victim had both physical and emotional trauma. The offender was a straight A student involved in many extra curricular activities. We recommended a brief term of probation based on the severity of the crime. The judge said doing probation would negatively affect the offenders future and dismissed the whole damn petition. So this young women assaulted another girl in school and was given no consequences because she's a good student. But we have kids probation for similar crimes and even much less serious crimes. They aren't straight A students with a long extra curricular resume. 

Case 2: A young man was charged with a sexual offense. Again Probation and specialized treatment were suggested. However he was pending a scholarship to a D1 school for athletics and everyone thought getting adjudicated as a sexual offender would negatively impact his ability to attend the school on scholarship and he should be granted an ACD. 

I fully believe that socioeconomically status, family status, family history and a youth's own history set some of our kids up for failure. I've seen very serious crimes get dismissed and I've seen other kids have the book thrown at them. I have everything from Tipping over a portapotty and stealing a skateboard to attempted murder and sex abuse cases. The gap is huge and to give a kid who tipped a portapotty the same sentence as a sexual offender floors me. 

[noseybutt]

5 hours ago, Sullie06 said:

I 100% see this in our area too. In terms of our juveniles, those doing well in school (because we have JDs as young as 7) or on track to attend college seem to get more leniency from the court. I can think of two recent distinct cases off the top of my head.  

Case 1: 17 YO female assaults another same age female in school over a disagreement online. The victim had both physical and emotional trauma. The offender was a straight A student involved in many extra curricular activities. We recommended a brief term of probation based on the severity of the crime. The judge said doing probation would negatively affect the offenders future and dismissed the whole damn petition. So this young women assaulted another girl in school and was given no consequences because she's a good student. But we have kids probation for similar crimes and even much less serious crimes. They aren't straight A students with a long extra curricular resume. 

Case 2: A young man was charged with a sexual offense. Again Probation and specialized treatment were suggested. However he was pending a scholarship to a D1 school for athletics and everyone thought getting adjudicated as a sexual offender would negatively impact his ability to attend the school on scholarship and he should be granted an ACD. 

I fully believe that socioeconomically status, family status, family history and a youth's own history set some of our kids up for failure. I've seen very serious crimes get dismissed and I've seen other kids have the book thrown at them. I have everything from Tipping over a portapotty and stealing a skateboard to attempted murder and sex abuse cases. The gap is huge and to give a kid who tipped a portapotty the same sentence as a sexual offender floors me. 

You have no idea how grateful I am that you took the time to type this out. Because there are days when I feel like I am losing my mind. 

There is good data that certain types of juvenile sex offending treatment can reduce recidivism (unlike most treatments for adult sex offending). But I think what gets lost in the discussion is that people assume "treatment" means "oh, the person can change." And then that morphs into "since he/she can change and has already shown evidence of change, then there is no need for treatment."

Oof.
 

It's an incredibly frustrating logical fallacy.

 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 8/24/2022 at 11:18 PM, Mama Mia said:

People were talking about how it’s wrong to have an insufficient calorie count, so that inmates go hungry. And discussion followed about how that low calorie count does lead to inequities because of needing to rely on commissary supplements. People were not worried that the inmates were not getting enough options.  In fact several people observed that the flavor and variety was either equal or superior to other institutional type meals. While a couple commented lightheartedly on how lack of coffee would be a hardship. I did idly wonder if prisons faced the same supply chain issues as public schools last year. There was some speculative discussion on that general theme. So no, no one was lamenting that Josh isn’t getting a choice between waffles and omelets and avocado toast every day. Thanks for the commissary fund donation link. That’s a very specific practical need that is often overlooked. 

Exactly, no one should go hungry in any setting, including prisoners. But I agree in terms of range of food choices college students and psychiatric inpatient patients should be allowed more choices and variety as they are not where they are due to breaking the law, committing crimes, and hurting people. They are where they are to invest in themselves by furthering their education or recovering from a mental illness. That’s different from someone who is incarcerated. In fact the only similarity between the groups is they are fed by companies whose job it is to provide large amounts of food.

Sorry for the underline, I’m on a tablet and I don’t know how to undo it.

[noseybutt]

I'll be the first to admit that I avoid food in correctional facilities, psych hospitals, and universities whenever possible. Just, no.

The issues are different though. IME the food at university dining halls tends to be overpriced for quality, like many things in US higher education. You are expected to pay and pay and pay some more. In psych hospitals, it's very frustrating because there is ample research to suggest a connection between diet and mental health, plus individuals on certain meds are at increased risk for heart conditions and diabetes and thus stand to benefit from high quality food. In correctional facilities, there is a long history in the US of using bland or distasteful food (at the extreme with grue or nutraloaf) as punishment and/or sensory deprivation.

IMO it's all kind of exhausting. 

In a county where healthcare is not universal and the mental health care is near broken....

Where higher education is not affordable for many...

Where many families are struggling financially in this recession/not recession...

Then of course it is hard not to think of triage and who is "more" deserving.

But there is also a reality that there is overlap between all the issues. We have dramatically reduced psych hospital beds despite high demand. We have few programs for substance abuse that actually work long term. Higher education is not accessible to all. And, our jails and prisons are the de facto psychiatric hospitals (and "finishing schools") for segments of the population with extreme mental illness and vulnerability. Example: college graduation rates for youth who have spent time in foster care are very low but that population is very much over-represented in corrections. 

The irony is that we are discussing this on a thread about Josh Duggar and IMO he is high risk in terms of lots of history and behaviors that do not bode well for rehabilitation. But Josh is not the typical prisoner. There really is no typical prisoner apart from backgrounds of poverty, trauma, substance abuse, and untreated serious mental illness.

So yeah.

I am not going to expect someone struggling with access to mental health or food for their kids or paying the college tuition to have empathy for food conditions in prison. 

However, I do think it is inter-related. You can't be serious about public safety without prevention. And you can't be serious about prevention unless healthcare and education are prioritized. For situations where it's too late for prevention, it is not too late for many to benefit from rehabilitation. I am in favor of incarcerated people having opportunities to invest in themselves in terms of education, job training, and mental health. 

And decent, wholesome food for all. 



 

[Sullie06]

18 hours ago, noseybutt said:

You have no idea how grateful I am that you took the time to type this out. Because there are days when I feel like I am losing my mind. 

There is good data that certain types of juvenile sex offending treatment can reduce recidivism (unlike most treatments for adult sex offending). But I think what gets lost in the discussion is that people assume "treatment" means "oh, the person can change." And then that morphs into "since he/she can change and has already shown evidence of change, then there is no need for treatment."

Oof.
 

It's an incredibly frustrating logical fallacy.

 

Extremely frustrating. I do feel that I agree with the data about recidivism of juveniles with and without specialized treatment. I think the thing that's important to remember is adolescents sexual offenders have a whole different set of needs and concerns. It's about so much more than just the offense and often times a strictly punitive outcome doesn't work as well.

Our particular program is recidivism rate is 3% after treatment and 15 % without it. Those are extremely low numbers but still not zero, so even with treatment some youths still re-offend. I feel finding out the underlying causation is a key point.