Josh and Anna 54: He's Listed in the BoP Database

[Cam]

26 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Incinerated! That really is a miracle, lol!

The difference is, the kids can't say, "Josh is your biggest utility." They will say, "Dad" The fact he is their father, and not their stepfather, will make them far more loyal to him. Especially since their grandparents will be talking about how he was innocent, was framed, etc.

Did you miss this part of my comment: “I’m not saying Anna’s kids will tell her to dump Josh.”

Also, I ‘m not saying her kids will instantly become wise little Buddhas doling out advice. They will be with their mom for ten years while their dad is out of the house. Plenty of time for observations over the years.

Thinking more about the women on the legal team, while I’m most certain they always remained professional, at some point when JB wasn’t around Anna may have said something to them like, “My father in law says —- is the best course of action.” And one of them may have replied, “Certainly you want to consider your father in law’s advice but keep in mind these actions are going to affect you much more than him.” Something to that effect. 
 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Cam

[SassyPants]

The only question I have with regards to the pants is the timing. When did Anna start wearing pants? What was the catalyst? Comfort? Jana deciding to wear pants, as besides Michelle she is the only other adult female on the compound? I don’t think Anna has been wearing pants for years as she would have been photographed a long time ago. Think about when you clean the yard in your old shoes or shirt and then decide you need to run to the store, and forget to change. Suddenly you find yourself at the checkout stand looking down at your filthy shoes or dirty shirt. Am I the only one who forgets these things?

[nokidsmom]

Regarding Anna in pants, personally I suspect she's been wearing them for awhile now, just based on seeing pictures of other Duggar women wearing them in recent years.  They may be officially "skirts only"  but at home and casual situations they have taken to wearing them at least sometimes.  

5 hours ago, formergothardite said:

She will rabidly defend what she believes. And she seems to believe Josh is innocent. I have no doubt that JB realizes Josh is guilty, and in private he might be saying negative things about Josh. Which would anger Anna who seems to expect people to defend him without question.

I think JB, J'chelle and lot of the family knows Josh is guilty.  JB and J'chelle have known for years they had a problem "golden child" and finally he took to a level where there was no way to hide it or avoid consequences after years of protecting him.   I suspect Anna is finding herself outnumbered in the "Josh is innocent" camp especially now that he's convicted and sentenced.    Before the trial there may have been hope that he would be found innocent but once the trial occurred, the evidence presented may have finally killed any lingering hope / belief that he was innocent.   JB filtering of the situation was no longer going to hold up in the face of the evidence and I suspect that is one reason why he was so angry walking out of the courthouse at times. 

I can see Anna being angry at what she believes would be Joshley's staunchest defenders, who would be alongside her, now "abandon" him.  When in reality she should be angry that she was led into a marriage with Josh based on lies, in which case, she should still be angry at JB but also at her own father for allowing it.   

It's understandable that she's angry but I don't think she has sorted out at exactly what and that will take time, if it ever happens. 

 

[noseybutt]

Mostly I think Anna is tired. Very, very tired. Raising that many young children is physically and emotionally exhausting. Add in drama with a husband sentenced for CSAM who likely was never honest with her and yet is still her closest emotional relationship.

She is an unlikeable person because she comes across as infantile. 

But how does an exhausted, immature mother grow up when the people likely providing her physical and emotional support don't have her back and don't want her to grow up? I have no idea.

She is heavily institutionalized. Only in this instance the institution is the Duggar compound and not jail.

[SassyPants]

52 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Mostly I think Anna is tired. Very, very tired. Raising that many young children is physically and emotionally exhausting. Add in drama with a husband sentenced for CSAM who likely was never honest with her and yet is still her closest emotional relationship.

She is an unlikeable person because she comes across as infantile. 

But how does an exhausted, immature mother grow up when the people likely providing her physical and emotional support don't have her back and don't want her to grow up? I have no idea.

She is heavily institutionalized. Only in this instance the institution is the Duggar compound and not jail.

She does not look healthy to me. If she is not taking care of her mental and physical health how can she possibly parent 7 kids in a healthy way? 

JB and M’s ways effed over 19 kids and now they are infecting and affecting another entire family. It’s beyond terrible and should be considered criminal. There is zero reason for this. They have the time and resources to improve this situation and they choose to ignore it.

Edited June 7, 2022 by SassyPants

[Satan'sFortress]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

She does not look healthy to me. If she is not taking care of her mental and physical health how can she possibly parent 7 kids in a healthy way?

Their answer is always to give it up to Jesus, pray on it, read the Bible. I always remember Michelle's story of working with JBs mom at the yogurt store. Grandma Mary got her hand stuck in the machine and never yelled, just kept calm and prayed or whatever. That made a big impression on Michelle.  I thought it was fucked up. If you're in pain or need help, you should be able to react, not suffer in silence. But I'm guessing that's what Anna is being advised to do.

[Jackie3]

10 hours ago, Cam said:

Did you miss this part of my comment: “I’m not saying Anna’s kids will tell her to dump Josh.”

Also, I ‘m not saying her kids will instantly become wise little Buddhas doling out advice. They will be with their mom for ten years while their dad is out of the house. Plenty of time for observations over the years.

Thinking more about the women on the legal team, while I’m most certain they always remained professional, at some point when JB wasn’t around Anna may have said something to them like, “My father in law says —- is the best course of action.” And one of them may have replied, “Certainly you want to consider your father in law’s advice but keep in mind these actions are going to affect you much more than him.” Something to that effect. 
 

 

I saw it! I was just saying a child's reaction to a SF is not the same as to a father. Kids can have such loyalty to a parent, often udeserved loyalty.

But it is certainly true that kids can say things (often innocently) that make parents' stop and think. I have experienced that.

[Cam]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

I saw it! I was just saying a child's reaction to a SF is not the same as to a father. Kids can have such loyalty to a parent, often udeserved loyalty.

But it is certainly true that kids can say things (often innocently) that make parents' stop and think. I have experienced that.

Yeah, I wasn’t making any point about a stepfather vs a father. The Mike in my story was just a freeloading boyfriend who contributed nothing and was in no kind of parental role to the woman’s kids. I was only getting at how her son pointed out something she was not seeing and it opened her eyes. Kids have a way of doing that innocently, like you said. It’s happened to me at times and I am a better person for it! 

Anna’s kids may never give any insights to her about their dad. But they may question the status quo about other things in their lives or assert their independence on certain matters and it might give Anna a new way to see things for herself. Maybe. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

8 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I can see Anna being angry at what she believes would be Joshley's staunchest defenders, who would be alongside her, now "abandon" him.  When in reality she should be angry that she was led into a marriage with Josh based on lies, in which case, she should still be angry at JB but also at her own father for allowing it.   

It's understandable that she's angry but I don't think she has sorted out at exactly what and that will take time, if it ever happens. 

 

I think some of her anger does rightly belong with Jim Bob and Michelle. They are the ones who allowed sexual abuse to go on in their homes without stopping it, they are the ones who assured he had no real consequences, they are the ones who covered for Josh, they are also likely the ones that hid his past from her. 
 

22 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

We need to remember, also, that the Duggar believe in natural procreation.  Masturbation is a big no-no.  Collecting sperm requires masturbation.  This is not exactly leaving it up to God.

I agree completely that all this talk borders fan fiction.  The fascination with the fecundity of these people is, perhaps, understanding since part of their weirdness is their glorification of large families, but let’s be real.

We’ve seen them willing to bend the rules when it suits them. Masturbation for Babies for Jesus might be okay. 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

We’ve seen them willing to bend the rules when it suits them. Masturbation for Babies for Jesus might be okay. 

I doubt it in this case.  It is one thing for a fundie to sneak to the fertility clinic and have a baby through IVF and no one is the wiser.  It is another thing to publicly admit that in order to conceive #8 while Josh was behind bars Anna and Josh went the AIH route. It would probably embarrass them and bring the kind of attention that they don’t want.

[EmCatlyn]

Re Anna wearing pants:

There is actually no prohibition against women wearing pants in the Bible.  In fact, I believe there is no mention of pants in the Bible at all. Ancient Israelites did not have pants in their wardrobes for either men or women. 😉

The reason fundies give for not allowing women to wear pants is

Quote

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God. Deuteronomy 22:5 KJV

In short, women can’t wear pants because pants (of some sort) were considered men’s clothing in Western society for a long time.

Nowadays, however, women wear pants.  They haven’t been considered exclusively “men’s clothing” since at least the 1970s.

I would guess that the younger generation of Duggars and their contemporaries among fundies may have read the the Bible for themselves (as they are supposed to) and reasoned that there is nothing immodest or unfeminine about pants designed for women.

Since most of the women will follow their “headships,” this reading and interpreting the Bible for themselves probably involved the men approving the pant-wearing.

Anna’s headship is in prison, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they agreed that pants for women were okay a while ago (notice pictures of Mackenzie in pants), but Anna just didn’t wear them in public because she thought they were too informal.

Now she may not care; she just went to the store in whatever she was wearing.  Maybe the “message” is that she is just tired of dressing for a particular image.  After all, the Bible doesn’t really forbid women wearing pants so long as they are pants designed and marketed for women.😉

[Bad Wolf]

Men with short hair, women with long hair, no pants for women, no alcohol. So they follow a long haired guy in a dress who drinks wine. That Jesus, such a rebel.

[SorenaJ]

All the conceiving while Josh is behind bars reminds me of Orange is the New Black where they attempted insemination by smuggling sperm into the prison. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

19 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I didn't watch full episodes of Counting On, but I don't remember daughters of any age wearing trousers on the show.

While all of the older daughters - including Jana outside the home - have begun wearing them, I do not think JB has dropped his Deuteronomy 22:5 convictions. I don't know about Michelle believes (not that what she thinks matters) but this is the woman whose knees were blurred out on a 19 Kids episode. The younger girls are always seen in long skirts and Josie is probably still wearing "pantaloons". 

Anna has always been told that women in pants are an abomination unto the Lord, and yet here she is along with her girls in a very public setting wearing jeans as soon as Josh is hauled away to serve his time. I'm not sure what it means, but I strongly lean towards some sort of statement directed at someone in her life. Jim Bob is a good guess, but it could be her parents or even Josh. 

The married daughters wore pants on Counting On, particularly Jinger.

I'm linking to this video. It's of an old talk JB and Michelle gave. Around an hour and forty minutes in, they talk about women wearing pants and it's clear that Michelle is the one who cares, not JB.

[Letgo]

I don’t see any possibility of Anna using IVF. It’s expensive, painful, requires timing, and Anna just had a baby last fall. Most importantly, they believe a human life begins at the moment of conception. With IVF only an embryo that is developing normally would be implanted. They aren’t going to be okay with the disposal of a fertilized egg even if there is no chance of viability. Also, it’s possible to have too many embryos for even a Duggar to use so what happens to them?
Have any fundies ever mentioned trying IVF? I don’t remember any admitting it. I know Michaela and Brandon Keilen are having some type of fertility treatments but I’m not sure what would be acceptable to them. 
I’ve attended a church that preached against birth control pills, IUDs, and IVF as killing babies and it wasn’t as extreme as the Duggar beliefs. I think Anna’s baby days are over unless she divorces Josh and remarries, he gets out very early for some reason, or she has super long fertility. I met a woman years ago who got pregnant at 51 and had the baby at 52. Yikes! Can’t even imagine.

[onekidanddone]

3 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

The married daughters wore pants on Counting On, particularly Jinger.

I'm linking to this video. It's of an old talk JB and Michelle gave. Around an hour and forty minutes in, they talk about women wearing pants and it's clear that Michelle is the one who cares, not JB.

Sweet benevolent Rufus that thing is three hours long and I only lasted five minutes. 

[BensAllergies]

There’d be no need for IVF. Anna would just use IUI which is artificial insemination. It’s a lot cheaper and less invasive.

But I don’t think they would or could do either.

[Sullie06]

15 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

There’d be no need for IVF. Anna would just use IUI which is artificial insemination. It’s a lot cheaper and less invasive.

But I don’t think they would or could do either.

IUI might be tricky as well because of timing. When I did IUI (I did 9 rounds) they would only do it with fresh sperm which meant when it was go time, my husband had to produce and we had to do the insemination within 30 minutes of him giving his sample. Plus all the monitoring is pretty invasive, time consuming and can get expensive even with insurance.  

[gustava]

What would be an M name for a turkey baster baby? 

[imokit]

14 minutes ago, Sullie06 said:

IUI might be tricky as well because of timing. When I did IUI (I did 9 rounds) they would only do it with fresh sperm which meant when it was go time, my husband had to produce and we had to do the insemination within 30 minutes of him giving his sample. Plus all the monitoring is pretty invasive, time consuming and can get expensive even with insurance.  

Turkey baster method.  He sneaks some sperm in a container to her during a prison visit. She goes to the visitors restroom uses a syringe/turkey baster and squirts it up there.

Rinse and repeat until baby.

🤮

I don't think they will.  Anna cares what people think of her and if she got pregnant while he was in jail people would judge badly and she'd care about that.

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Sweet benevolent Rufus that thing is three hours long and I only lasted five minutes. 

I fast forwarded to around 1:40 in time to hear Michelle say, "I just love word studies" and Imma like: Nope. Nope. Nopity. Nope.

Nothing tanks an already hideous sermon like the phrase "word study." 

Also, only a linguist or true wordsmith can claim to love a word study. Everyone else is lying.

19 minutes ago, gustava said:

What would be an M name for a turkey baster baby? 

Mistake.

[Giraffe]

I don’t see them doing anything for a baby while Josh Duggar, convicted pedophile, is locked up. However, I absolutely expect them to use any type of reproductive technology when he gets out. Hopefully Anna doesn’t freeze eggs while he’s in the slammer. 

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God. Deuteronomy 22:5 KJV

Given that men and women pretty much wore the same thing then, what does this passage mean?

[BensAllergies]

1 hour ago, Sullie06 said:

IUI might be tricky as well because of timing. When I did IUI (I did 9 rounds) they would only do it with fresh sperm which meant when it was go time, my husband had to produce and we had to do the insemination within 30 minutes of him giving his sample. Plus all the monitoring is pretty invasive, time consuming and can get expensive even with insurance.  

I did IUI as well because of my own infertility. Anna isn’t infertile and wouldn’t need the medications and intensive monitoring. Frozen sperm is allowed to be used even if it’s not ideal. I know because it’s a discussion I’ve had with two doctors on opposite coasts due to my husband’s hectic work and travel schedule.

It’s still not something they would or could do which is why I’m surprised IVF came up as a topic when the lesser intensive and expensive option of artificial insemination when she’s ovulating is still very unlikely to happen due to the fact that they’d have to smuggle his sperm out.

[Jackie3]

22 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

I did IUI as well because of my own infertility. Anna isn’t infertile and wouldn’t need the medications and intensive monitoring. Frozen sperm is allowed to be used even if it’s not ideal. I know because it’s a discussion I’ve had with two doctors on opposite coasts due to my husband’s hectic work and travel schedule.

It’s still not something they would or could do which is why I’m surprised IVF came up as a topic when the lesser intensive and expensive option of artificial insemination when she’s ovulating is still very unlikely to happen due to the fact that they’d have to smuggle his sperm out.

I think it's going to take them a while just to figure out prison restrictions, visiting hours, travel, childcare, etc. I imagine the last thing on their mind is another baby. That's just another "loss" that Anna is experiencing as a result of Josh's crimes--the premature end of her fertility. I suspect her world is so busy, overwhelming and depressing that she doesn't even care.