(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 46: Counting On - 16 Weeks Until Sentencing

[marmalade]

9 minutes ago, Freejin said:

I’m trying to remember but can’t - what was JB responding to when he said “I won’t allow it”?

 

Wouldn't allow the police report regarding the molestations to be admitted as evidence. He was trying to object!

[EmCatlyn]

In the previous thread, @HerNameIsBuffy wrote:

Quote

Sorry, but no.  I went to a boarding school that specialized in that kind of "treatment."  Since closed since there have been deaths due to abuse.  

The vast majority of us may have lifelong scars from that but we don't participate in CSA because of it.  I'm sure you mean well but not all abuse turns people into abusers.  

It was not treatment, it was criminally negligent on behalf of his parents IMO, it was absolutely counter productive to any shot at him being rehabilitated but he had victims before he was sent there.  

This was in response to a post where I described how Josh was punished fir viewing porn and I expressed how appalling I found it.   I did not anywhere suggest that Josh became a pervert because of how his parents handled this and the earlier instance, when he first molested his sisters.  My point was that the way his parents and church “intervened” made things worse, not better, and that if he had not been treated coldly and punitively, but instead had had the therapy he needed, he might have turned out different.

My final sentence was:

Quote

Josh might never have been a nice person, but he might have been a lot less worthless if he had had help.

The whole nature/nurture thing is complicated, but I think Josh’s abuse of his sisters had several causes, including how sexuality is taught in IBPL/ATI families, how JB made a big show of his masculine superiority because he got to have sex whenever he wanted it, etc.  Once Josh transgressed, the family’s response just made things worse because the focus was on punishment, not understanding.  With the porn/sin in the camp transgression, the response was equally brutal.  The lesson he learned was that his inappropriate sexual desires had to be concealed or else he would be brutally punished.

Not everyone who is brutally punished responds the same way. My comments were about the punishment affected Josh, not how the treatment might affect others.  

[Freejin]

10 minutes ago, Mela99 said:

Wouldn’t allow the questioning about Josh’s past

And he said it after the judge said what?

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Here’s a bit of speculation: if Josh is put in prison far away would Anna and the M kids follow him? If so could this actually be a positive? This could get Anna away from the compound with less supervision. Maybe put the kids in school, even if it is a Christian one, and a job.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Father Son Holy Goat

[Freejin]

Sorry - I forget the context. 

Just now, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Here’s a bit of speculation: if Josh is put in prison far away would Anna and the M kids follow him? If so could this actually be a positive? This could get Anna away from the compound with less supervision. 

Interesting idea. 

[Tatar-tot]

I just read the People recap of JB/M statement.  They have a cognitive disconnect as to what Josh did to their daughters and what a victim of CSAM is.  Are they that disconnected as to what Josh did to their girls???

[Beermeet]

I like Derick and Jill's response.   

That Duggar family tea is....something believable honestly.   The way they act and Joy/Austin were there for truth like Derick was for him and Jill.  I feel that's obvious.  

Explains them staying away and no Michelle.  This is a spiritual battle for the headship.  David fn Waller too.  The way Anna looked at her ring and clung to him prior.  It's plausible, imo. 

 

1 minute ago, Tatar-tot said:

I just read the People recap of JB/M statement.  They have a cognitive disconnect as to what Josh did to their daughters and what a victim of CSAM is.  Are they that disconnected as to what Josh did to their girls???

After reading those gross wisdom booklets on sexual assault and how Gothard was from the article previously posted, yes. I believe they are.  It's difficult to imagine this view because it's pro-child and female sexual abuse.  This is how these people think, for real.  It's insanely disgusting and meant exactly for this situation right here. 

[CanadianMamam]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

This may be the beginning of Josh’s problems. Under a new law, child sexual abuse victims have until age 55 to bring charges. Josh’s childhood victims can now press charges.

https://greenandgillispie.com/in-the-news/arkansas-extends-statute-of-limitations-for-child-sex-abusers/

 

I can't see the girls pressing charges or any benefit to it. He's already in jail..and from what I understand, the judge allowing Bobye's testimony amounts to the judge acknowledging it happened (like a paper could call Josh a child molester instead of an alleged child molester and he couldn't sue them), so the truth is out there. What would another trial do except re-victimize the girls and make them publically air there trauma (and Jane Does #3 was dias to be particularly traumatized and I can't see her wanting to go public) and drag Anna and the M's through another painful trial? And watch their parents waste even more money on Josh. 

[ElizaB]

It strikes me that when Anna left court she seems to be holding her own hand. I like to think this is a metaphor for her. The past days she has been led in by Josh holding her hand. Now it is on her. She doesn't have a headship. She only has herself. While a lot of us have sympathy for her and have expressed that she was trapped- for me this ends now. Josh is going to be gone. It is time for her to stand up and put on her big girl pants and take responsibility for the wellbeing of herself and her kids. No more Josh's hand- just hers. 

[Tatar-tot]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

This may be the beginning of Josh’s problems. Under a new law, child sexual abuse victims have until age 55 to bring charges. Josh’s childhood victims can now press charges.

https://greenandgillispie.com/in-the-news/arkansas-extends-statute-of-limitations-for-child-sex-abusers/

 

The girls have 5-6 months to bring charges.  I hope they do.  Between the original police report, the trial transcript, and their own testimony  they have an extremely strong case.  I am also wondering if they can loop JB in for aiding and abetting.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Tatar-tot

[Daisy]

30 minutes ago, Freejin said:

And he said it after the judge said what?

The prosecutor was asking JB about Josh molesting his sisters. JB said I’m not going to allow this, are you going to allow this(talking to the judge)? Trying to object.  The judge quickly told him if there were objections to be made he wouldn’t be the one making them 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Daisy

[ElizaB]

2 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

The girls have 5-6 months to bring charges.  I hope they do.  Between the original police report, the trial transcript, and their own testimony  they have an extremely strong case.  I am also wondering if they can loop JB in for aiding and abetting.

I can't see them all doing this- but there are 2 who I could see. 

[zee_four]

40 minutes ago, WiseGirl said:

My usual People magazine updates. This one describes Smuggar when he was found guilty.

https://people.com/tv/what-it-was-like-in-court-when-josh-duggar-verdict-was-read/

And JB and Michele are back to being a lead story on People as well.

https://people.com/tv/jim-bob-michelle-duggar-speak-out-after-josh-found-guilty-child-porn-charges/

I love how even People, not known for being political or overtly discerning says that JB has been "conspicuously welcoming" because he's running for Senate. Like even People thought you were sketchy as hell and it was clear you were trying to get political brownie points. Sweet sweet schadenfreude.

[Jinder Roles]

Emily Baker brought up something interesting about sentencing. She said if there is a sentencing hearing, anyone can testify for or against Josh in order to influence the length of time served. This means Anna or other Duggars could show up for Pest (or against him). 

She also said length of sentencing will depend of the case, as well as if the judge considers previous acts etc etc. 

I think he'll get 10-15 yrs considering the severity of the CSAM but he's not a past offender (especially if the judge doesn't consider previous acts). I guess we'll see what happens. He's also very likely to appeal. 

[AuntKrazy]

3 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I mean it is an ACE, no doubt about it.  I don't know if I agree with mandated though, having had the experience myself.

What would be most helpful for the mental health of children of the incarcerated?

[Jana814]

Josh being found guilty & the joy that everyone is having in this myself included has definitely distracted me since I’m getting my Covid booster tomorrow. So thank you everyone!  

Edited December 10, 2021 by Jana814

[Heidijoey]

I love how even People, not known for being political or overtly discerning says that JB has been "conspicuously welcoming" because he's running for Senate. Like even People thought you were sketchy as hell and it was clear you were trying to get political brownie points. Sweet sweet schadenfreude.

I wonder what they were saying in their prayer huddle

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

18 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Emily Baker brought up something interesting about sentencing. She said if there is a sentencing hearing, anyone can testify for or against Josh in order to influence the length of time served. This means Anna or other Duggars could show up for Pest (or against him). 

She also said length of sentencing will depend of the case, as well as if the judge considers previous acts etc etc. 

I think he'll get 10-15 yrs considering the severity of the CSAM but he's not a past offender (especially if the judge doesn't consider previous acts). I guess we'll see what happens. He's also very likely to appeal. 

I did a little research on the judge. With almost identical charges but with guilty pleas, he tended to sentence 6 - 7 years. I read somewhere that two years can be knocked off for taking responsibility, so adding 2 years for Josh's insistence he did nothing wrong, I'll predict 8 - 9 years. Still, a very long time. I'd so freaked out, but Josh seems to be living in his own private Idaho, so who knows what's going through his mind tonight.

[AuntKrazy]

33 minutes ago, CanadianMamam said:

What would another trial do except re-victimize the girls and make them publically air there trauma

Sometimes if one has been gaslit so much that one doubts her very ability to perceive reality, it may be therapeutic to have a formal hearing.

I believe this is at least part of why there were so many survivor statements at Larry Nassar's trial.  There is value in simply standing up and saying "I matter"after experiencing this.

[Fjrocks]

   Someone on Twitter pointed this out and I went back and found it, it's from Josh's statement when the very first scandal broke out.  

“Twelve years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends,” Josh, 27, tells PEOPLE in a statement. “I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing, and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life.”

Source:  https://people.com/crime/josh-duggar-child-molestation-accusations-19-kids-counting-star-responds/

Edited December 10, 2021 by Fjrocks
clarity

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

This is so petty and hypocritical since I post with typos all the time, but I do wish dillards could have gotten a grammar check before posting. 🤷🏻‍♀️

You seem to have annoyed some people with this comment, but I was bothered by the shifts in person and other careless errors also.  It is otherwise well-written, and I had a momentary fantasy of writing to them privately to suggest that they fix a couple of things.  (It would have been well-meant, but totally stupid.)  I think their sentiments outweigh the grammar slips, but the grammar slips do distract a little.

[zee_four]

3 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I did a little research on the judge. With almost identical charges but with guilty pleas, he tended to sentence 6 - 7 years. I read somewhere that two years can be knocked off for taking responsibility, so adding 2 years for Josh's insistence he did nothing wrong, I'll predict 8 - 9 years. Still, a very long time. I'd so freaked out, but Josh seems to be living in his own private Idaho, so who knows what's going through his mind tonight.

I do wonder if 1) JB and Smuggar's lawyers being idiots and 2) the testimony and various documentation of him actually molesting his young sisters and another girl a number of times will make a difference. I think it will. Judges do not have to justify their sentencing but of course if it's ridiculously out of line you can appeal and the sentence will go to other judges who can review it and when bein elected sentencing records can be looked at an a solid judge like him wouldn't risk it by sentencing him to life or something that isn't within the standard. But if he sentences the max allowed he isn't required to a legal standard of justification if that makes sense. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

I showed my husband Josh’s booking photo, and he said Josh’s face said, “I just got laid!” He looks pretty happy about spending a decade or two sitting in his cell munching commissary junk food.

 I want the TLC/Figure 8 crew that the family trusts to do a serious documentary. No bullshit, and everyone gets a chance to speak their truth. 

The booking video included a clip of Josh speaking in his FRC role where he had really bizarre hair. His hair looks better now that he’s lost that off-center widow’s peak.

[JillyO]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Here’s a bit of speculation: if Josh is put in prison far away would Anna and the M kids follow him? If so could this actually be a positive? This could get Anna away from the compound with less supervision. Maybe put the kids in school, even if it is a Christian one, and a job.

I highly doubt it. One of the family pilots will just fly her there and back. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

3 minutes ago, zee_four said:

I do wonder if 1) JB and Smuggar's lawyers being idiots and 2) the testimony and various documentation of him actually molesting his young sisters and another girl a number of times will make a difference. I think it will. Judges do not have to justify their sentencing but of course if it's ridiculously out of line you can appeal and the sentence will go to other judges who can review it and when bein elected sentencing records can be looked at an a solid judge like him wouldn't risk it by sentencing him to life or something that isn't within the standard. But if he sentences the max allowed he isn't required to a legal standard of justification if that makes sense. 

I don't think the judge can use Josh's actions as minor in the sentencing for a separate crime. Whether that works on him subconsciously is another question though.

I'm not sure he'd consider Josh's attorneys to be idiots. They did what they had to do. And I don't think he'd punish Josh because he didn't like the attorneys. 

I know WOACB is saying Josh will get more than 10 years because that was offered to him as a deal. But we don't know that was a final deal offer. And the judge isn't bound by the prosecutor's offers. All we can say for sure now is 5 years is the minimum and 20 years is the max.