(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 46: Counting On - 16 Weeks Until Sentencing

[nausicaa]

39 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I've seen this justified by some because privacy at home as we know it is a relatively recent development for anyone below the upper classes and we all have ancestors who had tons of kids in close quarters.  But since statistically most of them weren't in sexually oriented cults it is to be hoped they had more discretion than what I imagine any of these fundy couples.  

I read an autobiography a few years ago by a woman who was a maid in one of those grand Edwardian estates (a la Downton Abbey). She grew up impoverished in a two room place in London and was one of many children. She spoke frankly that she didn't know how they did it, but she never heard her parents having sex. She thought perhaps they had "adult time" while the kids were at Sunday school activities. She seemed disgusted with the notion that people would openly have sex where their children would know about it. 

Granted, this was just one family, and Victorians were generally more sexually modest than others, but it does seem even impoverished parents in the past made some attempts to shield their kids from that. 

[feministxtian]

1 minute ago, libgirl2 said:

I think it is different for nephews and nieces than grandchildren. Everyone I know who has grandchildren say "my grandchildren". 

 

Damn skippy! They are MY grandchildren. I have other names for them too, especially on social media. There's Itty-bitty, Not-so-Itty-bitty (changing soon to teenager in training), Bear (my grandson). Hell, I'm a possessive bitch...the kids and grandkids are all mine

[karenb4729]

1 hour ago, Antimony said:

-Many visitation programs have been cancelled, or moved to video-only 

 

I had a friend in jail in 2015 and the jail only did video visits.  I was wondering if it was the same for prison too.

[Alisamer]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I think it is different for nephews and nieces than grandchildren. Everyone I know who has grandchildren say "my grandchildren". 

Yeah also for nieces and nephews there might be more need to specify whose kids they are. Especially when there are a lot of siblings.

Which might be why this is coming up with the Duggars. They might just be in the habit of pointing out which family the kids are "Josh and Anna's family" or "Jessa and Ben's family" because there are just so freaking many of them.

At some point "our grandchildren" might equal the entire population of a small town, with as many kids as they have, and they'll have great-grandchildren starting in a decade or so most likely. 

When there are like five grandchildren, it makes sense to just say "our grandchildren". When there are a zillion, it probably makes better sense to specify. 

[Cheetah]

4 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

Damn skippy! They are MY grandchildren. I have other names for them too, especially on social media. There's Itty-bitty, Not-so-Itty-bitty (changing soon to teenager in training), Bear (my grandson). Hell, I'm a possessive bitch...the kids and grandkids are all mine

Right but if you are referring to your grandchildren specifically from one of your kids as opposed to all of them (assuming you have more than one child with offspring) wouldn't you (or some people, anyway) say "My son Josh and his kids all hate orange juice" rather than "my son Josh and my grandkids all hate orange juice"?  

[metheglyn]

Just now, Alisamer said:

Yeah also for nieces and nephews there might be more need to specify whose kids they are. Especially when there are a lot of siblings.

Which might be why this is coming up with the Duggars. They might just be in the habit of pointing out which family the kids are "Josh and Anna's family" or "Jessa and Ben's family" because there are just so freaking many of them.

At some point "our grandchildren" might equal the entire population of a small town, with as many kids as they have, and they'll have great-grandchildren starting in a decade or so most likely. 

When there are like five grandchildren, it makes sense to just say "our grandchildren". When there are a zillion, it probably makes better sense to specify. 

That's the argument that makes sense to me. It identifies the specific grandchildren in question rather than encompassing all of their grandchildren, many of whom aren't relevant to the discussion. There are around 20 grandkids now, and it helps to specify which subgrouping is being referenced when making that kind of statement. 

[Antipatriarch]

18 hours ago, Jaeniduggar said:

I hope for 19 years, only for the brand of course.

Judge Brooks, at sentencing: "Considering all the factors, it is clear that 20 years is too long a sentence."

pauses a moment as Josh's hopes rise

Judge Brooks: "I hereby sentence you to 19 years." evil grin

[Giraffe]

I'd be thrilled with 15 years but I'm hoping for at least 11 since he was offered 10 in the plea deal. 

*Looked it up after @not in the limelight questioned it. I can't find an amount of time he was offered. Maybe 10 years was speculated on here when he was first arrested and I assumed it was right. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Giraffe

[Father Son Holy Goat]

4 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

Judge Brooks, at sentencing: "Considering all the factors, it is clear that 20 years is too long a sentence."

pauses a moment as Josh's hopes rise

Judge Brooks: "I hereby sentence you to 19 years." evil grin

19 years and counting 

[karenb4729]

1 hour ago, Freejin said:

So Josh will be in a local jail for 4 months. What is that usually like? Similar to prison in terms of restrictions? 

I think it's worse than prison.  At least in what I have been told by a few people I know that have spent a few nights in the county jail.  The lights stay on 24/7 as you have people being booked in all night long.  There isn't a lot to do unless you work in the kitchen.  The prisoners who wear a red wrist band have committed a violent act.  It's cold, and the only time you see outside is when you go into the exercise are where it's enclosed and only has very small windows.  Visitation is only through video where the visitor is in a separate room in front of a screen with a phone and the inmate is brought to a room with a screen and a phone.  As the visitor you can hear everyone else in the room having their conversations.  The inmates were only allowed 2 visitors per week.

[not in the limelight]

4 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I'd be thrilled with 15 years but I'm hoping for at least 11 since he was offered 10 in the plea deal. 

Where was this info? 

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, Cheetah said:

Right but if you are referring to your grandchildren specifically from one of your kids as opposed to all of them (assuming you have more than one child with offspring) wouldn't you (or some people, anyway) say "My son Josh and his kids all hate orange juice" rather than "my son Josh and my grandkids all hate orange juice"?  

Good point. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

So… when does the other trial start?

[HerNameIsBuffy]

51 minutes ago, Fjrocks said:

  "....our daughter-in-law Anna and their children",  rather then saying "our grandchildren."

Adding on to my previous comment, to me this is distancing language.  It feels deliberate.  Their children, the subtext being not our responsibility.  Goes along with them saying something about supporting them in the days to follow or something.  

I have been estranged from my mom's family since I learned of her CSA and their enabling her abuser.  I refer to them as "my mom's family."  Her abuser as "my mom's brother."  My dad's sister and brother I refer to as my aunt and uncle.  Their children are my cousins.  I don't talk to them either, but it's not estrangement.  I wouldn't recognize them if I saw them on the street but I still consider them related to me, not just my dad...if that makes sense.

And since I'm rambling, when I was a teenager my mom joined me in a therapy session and the therapist noted that my mom referred to her siblings as "the brothers and sisters."  It was the first time I'd heard the term distancing language so I started paying attention.  My mom would always refer to her mom as "gramma" when talking to us but when referring to grandpa she's say "my dad."  I thought it was because grandpa died when I was little and gramma was still alive, but after I learned of the abuse I wondered. 

Spoiler for unpleasant but not graphic abuse stuff

Spoiler

She seemed close with her mom but adored her dad, she would light up when she'd talk about grandpa.  When I learned of the abuse and that she'd told gramma (as did one of her sisters) and she didn't protect her, but grandpa never knew.  She was told if she told grandpa he'd kill her abuser and be taken away to jail.  She couldn't bear the thought of her dad killing her brother and going away so she never told him.  So not only was her dad always the parent she was closest to even before this, she was specifically told he would have killed to protect her.  To an abused little girl I can see why that would elevate him to hero status in her mind.  (Fwiw by all accounts my grandfather was a very gentle man, not at all violent.  But she did have memories of him wiping away tears when there would be news stories of murdered or abused children and being very vocal about what should happen to the people who harm kids.  What he would have done who knows, but my mom was convinced even until the day she died that it was the right thing to do not to tell grandpa.)

I think parents should be providing for their own kids and it's wonderful when family steps in and wants to help when someone is in trouble.  I'm not ashamed to admit (yes I am, but leaving it in) it that soon after my divorce where my ex cleaned me out and I got restructured out of my  job my siblings didn't ask if I needed help.  My sisters sent money immediately and my brother informed me he was going to be sending me a monthly check until I was back on my feet.  

But while I think it's wonderful when family helps there is usually no obligation there IMO.  However, I do think JB and M do have a financial obligation to the Ms because they've always financially supported them.  They encouraged the endless children despite the fact that Josh was never able to provide for them (outside of that brief stint as ED of FRC which was still only based on his family name.)  They helped create this mess, "Leave and cleave, buddy" indeed.  

Edited December 10, 2021 by HerNameIsBuffy

[karenb4729]

1 hour ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Yes, I don't think medium can accommodate special units. He'll either be in general population or solitary/protective custody. If he steps down to minimum closer to his release date, there may be more options, but anyone is safer in minimum as there are generally no violent criminals there.  Tends toward white collar and drug convicts.

https://prisonfinder.org/prison-security-levels/

This is a good link for information on federal prisons.  Sometimes where you are sent is based on the length of your sentence.  

[Buzzard]

Prediction:

Joshly will begin a prison ministry.  His remote visitations will be recorded and he will post sermons.  He will write and Anna will maintain a blog.  The humpers will put money on his books and donate to support the m’kids.  Joshly will learn nothing.

He’s gonna grift this all the way.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

2 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Adding on to my previous comment, to me this is distancing language.  It feels deliberate.  Their children, the subtext being not our responsibility.  Goes along with them saying something about supporting them in the days to follow or something.  

I have been estranged from my mom's family since I learned of her CSA and their enabling her abuser.  I refer to them as "my mom's family."  Her abuser as "my mom's brother."  My dad's sister and brother I refer to as my aunt and uncle.  Their children are my cousins.  I don't talk to them either, but it's not estrangement.  I wouldn't recognize them if I saw them on the street but I still consider them related to me, not just my dad...if that makes sense.

And since I'm rambling, when I was a teenager my mom joined me in a therapy session and the therapist noted that my mom referred to her siblings as "the brothers and sisters."  It was the first time I'd heard the term distancing language so I started paying attention.  My mom would always refer to her mom as "gramma" when talking to us but when referring to grandpa she's say "my dad."  I thought it was because grandpa died when I was little and gramma was still alive, but after I learned of the abuse I wondered. 

Spoiler for unpleasant but not graphic abuse stuff

  Reveal hidden contents

She seemed close with her mom but adored her dad, she would light up when she'd talk about grandpa.  When I learned of the abuse and that she'd told gramma (as did one of her sisters) and she didn't protect her, but grandpa never knew.  She was told if she told grandpa he'd kill her abuser and be taken away to jail.  She couldn't bear the thought of her dad killing her brother and going away so she never told him.  So not only was her dad always the parent she was closest to even before this, she was specifically told he would have killed to protect her.  To an abused little girl I can see why that would elevate him to hero status in her mind.  (Fwiw by all accounts my grandfather was a very gentle man, not at all violent.  But she did have memories of him wiping away tears when there would be news stories of murdered or abused children and being very vocal about what should happen to the people who harm kids.  What he would have done who knows, but my mom was convinced even until the day she died that it was the right thing to do not to tell grandpa.)

 

I do the same thing. I talk about my mom and my dad. I do not call them mom and dad.

[TuringMachine]

There's a post on reddit that goes through this pretty thoroughly 
 

Quote

 

tl;dr, people mistook what was more likely a reference to the likely sentence if this went to trial as the offer of the plea deal. We don't actually know what was offered.

[JuanitaBanana]

1 minute ago, Buzzard said:

Prediction:

Joshly will begin a prison ministry.  His remote visitations will be recorded and he will post sermons.  He will write and Anna will maintain a blog.  The humpers will put money on his books and donate to support the m’kids.  Joshly will learn nothing.

He’s gonna grift this all the way.

I think he's too lazy for that. I can't see him putting the effort into writing a sermon.

[Jinder Roles]

Sorry, I misremembered. Thanks for the correction @TuringMachine

Edited December 10, 2021 by Jinder Roles

[BlackberryGirl]

As part of my job working with teens/ young adults who were or had been in foster care, I had to go into 3 different county jails. I can agree, jails have a distinctive odor.. I was an adult, had never committed a crime yet I felt awful going in there. First the security check, then being held even for a few seconds in the “airlock” separate locking doors on either side of a little ante room. Putting everything into a locker...purse, phone, comb. Then the attitude of the guards. Once I was told visiting days are Wednesdays, I couldn’t visit, when I drew myself up to my full 4’10” and stated imperiously, this is my JOB, I’m not here to “visit,” I suddenly got an “I’m sorry, ma’am,” and was allowed right in. The little meeting rooms are bleak and cold. Jails are horrible places.

 

 

[karenb4729]

In my research of federal prison system I found this bit of info:

"Keep in mind that inmates who have had a history of crime against children, they will NOT be allowed to have children as visitors."

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Yes the plea was 10 years. However this doesn’t mean the sentence will be longer. 
 

Sentencing is up to the judge. I think he’ll get closer to 15yrs but we’ll see

This is a long standing rumor, but no one has ever been able to point to a source showing what the plea was.  Just that there was one and it was declined.

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, JuanitaBanana said:

I think he's too lazy for that. I can't see him putting the effort into writing a sermon.

Maybe so, but what else will he have to do? Plus, it might keep trouble from finding him. 

[apple1]

56 minutes ago, Fjrocks said:

   I agree saying Josh's family seems distant  

   People took it a step farther and noticed that Jim Bob and Michelle wrote,   "....our daughter-in-law Anna and their children",  rather then saying "our grandchildren." These grandchildren have lived with them off and on over the years so it would be a close (and direct) relationship you would think.   It's nit picky, I admit, but it made me wonder again if JB and M wrote it or if that was a 3rd person narrative slipping in to that word choice.

    I reflected about how I refer to my nieces and nephews for example, in natural conversation.  I think I do sometimes say "my sister's kids" rather then my nieces (a more direct relation) and it is no way reflects loving them less.   I might say "my sister's family" but I don't think I ever say, "Jane's family."   I am going to pay attention to this now as it intrigues me. 

  Definitely it's interesting to discuss words and language.

I have two grandkids. I have NEVER referred to them a "John and Jane's kids" (of course, not real names). I always say either "my grandkids" or the kids' specific/real names.