(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 46: Counting On - 16 Weeks Until Sentencing

[HerNameIsBuffy]

8 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

As parents, we will never stop praying for Joshua, and loving him

Sorry, I paraphrased badly and shouldn't have used quotes.  Will never stop loving him means the same and that's the line to which I was referring.

[HereticHick]

So I guess the closest prison to Tontitown is  El Reno, Oklahoma-- 3 1/2 hours away--and the next is Forrest City, Arkansas--5 hours away?

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/ere/

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/fom/

[Freejin]

Just now, HereticHick said:

So I guess the closest prison to Tontitown is  El Reno, Oklahoma-- 3 1/2 hours away--and the next is Forrest City, Arkansas--5 hours away?

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/ere/

https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/fom/

How is a prison chosen once someone has been sentenced? Is it just wherever there’s a free bed?

[Cam]

Link to a lengthy but good article here. The last part I will post, it makes great points on Christian patriarchy being about power and it goes on to describe Bobye Holt as a woman who brought the patriarchy, at least this time, to its knees.

https://baptistnews.com/article/the-weakness-of-complementarian-theology-on-display-in-duggar-trial/?fbclid=IwAR1MoXw6AQv4ES1JVuIDvziCUKOWrejObYpSDBtKpJgQiOqBOB1Dab-WMig#.YbKDmSpOni0

 

Quote

*When complementarianism evolves to protect the power of the patriarchs*

But when Jim Bob, the patriarch, took the stand, his complementarian theology was suddenly nowhere to be found. He testified that elders’ wives are considered to be spiritual leaders, that the Holts were a team of counselors for Josh, that elders wives were part of the leadership and could occasionally vote on some issues. One might have thought according to Jim Bob’s testimony that Bobye Holt was a modern-day Junia, prominent among the apostles.

Josh’s defense team argued that Jim Bob clearly proved that women hold enough power in their complementarian church to be considered clergy — an argument made in order to protect Josh’s confession from being admitted due to the clergy confidentiality clause.

“Josh’s defense team argued that Jim Bob clearly proved that women hold enough power in their complementarian church to be considered clergy.”

In other words, Bobye Holt, who is normally supposed to be silent and submissive in her complementarian marriage and church, suddenly was elevated by the complementarian men to the position of an official church leader in order to silence her testimony about the sexual abuse of one of the men in their church against the young girls of their church.

But the judge wasn’t buying the complementarians’ sudden stamp of approval on women leaders in the church and decided to allow Holt’s testimony. And as People reports, Jim Bob the patriarch began getting flustered on the stand and said, “I’m not a male chauvinist.”

*When God chooses the foolish, the weak, the low and despised*

One thing we have learned in the PCA, the Anglican Church, the SBC, and now through the Duggar trial is that Christian patriarchy ultimately is about power. In each of their hierarchies, men are at the top, wielding their power to silence women and sexual abuse victims. In each of their hierarchies, they use women as political pawns by giving them positions on committees or statuses of authority in courtrooms only when it further serves the preservation of their own power. And in each of their hierarchies, they ultimately make women and sexual abuse victims feel foolish, weak, low and despised.

In the world of conservative complementarian evangelicalism across all their denominations, men are at the top and are considered the wise and the strong. And no matter what happens to Josh Duggar, his father, Jim Bob, the patriarch is on a quest for even greater power as he attempts to spread his values through a run for the Arkansas state senate.

But as 1 Corinthians 1:27-28 say, “God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, things that are not, to reduce to nothing things that are.”

Perhaps in the case of Bobye Holt’s testimony, one woman who has lived her life in a world of being made to feel foolish, weak, low, despised and nothing is becoming free enough to reduce to nothing the patriarchs at the top of her hierarchy.

[Beermeet]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

I woke up this morning thinking about Josh. Has the reality of this sunk in yet? Is he still cocky and thinking there will be a way for him to wiggle out of it? I remember when he turned himself in and was briefly locked up, he remained his normal confident self. He even made a wise crack to the judge about having to sit on an uncomfortable metal stool. I’m sure Anna will rush to see him the moment she can, but how soon will he be able to have visitors? Will his parents ever even bother to go see him? 
 

I don’t think he was prepared at all for being found guilty. He has always gotten away with his awful behavior.

I wonder what covid rules prison has?

[Freejin]

1 minute ago, Beermeet said:

I wonder what covid rules prison has?

Will he likely be placed in gen pop? Is it still true that sex offenders don’t have an easy time with other prisoners?

[Father Son Holy Goat]

3 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I wonder what covid rules prison has?

Lol, Josh having to wear a mask 24/7

[gustava]

12 hours ago, HoneyBunny said:

Anna sacrificed a happy married life for a short term shot at fame, but I believe she knew what she was getting into.

I'm honestly not sure she did.  I watched the engagement video/body language expert posted by Buffy, and even without sound, it's pretty telling.  She cringes.  She withdraws. It's sad.  Or maybe she had those reactions because she did at least subconsciously grasp that she was marrying a pervert.  Just thought of that.

[BensAllergies]

The Dillard v. Springdale trial was originally scheduled to start yesterday under the same judge. There was a lot of activity on Court Listener through 11/30. Do any legal eagles think it resulted in a settlement based on the filings? It’s the suit about the sisters claiming their constitutional rights were violated when the poorly redacted report identified them as minor victims.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6074458/dillard-v-city-of-springdale-arkansas/?page=2

[Antimony]

11 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I wonder what covid rules prison has?

The general rule is every prison is different, and he's currently in jail but I've heard the following rules from pen-pals;
-Masks 24/7
-Mandated vaccination (but not for guards!!! Cool move, USA!)*
-Even more limited recreation and movement
-Many visitation programs have been cancelled, or moved to video-only 

*Federal probably won't have this exception for guards because of the federal employee mandate???

[nokidsmom]

17 minutes ago, gustava said:

I'm honestly not sure she did.  I watched the engagement video/body language expert posted by Buffy, and even without sound, it's pretty telling.  She cringes.  She withdraws. It's sad.  Or maybe she had those reactions because she did at least subconsciously grasp that she was marrying a pervert.  Just thought of that.

I watched the video for the first time a couple of weeks ago.  It is so cringeworthy.  She does withdraw, shrinks away.  Josh was pushy and behaved inappropriately (ETA: and was horribly arrogant) for someone who is proposing marriage IMHO.   Who knows if Anna had any sort of "sixth sense" about Josh especially considering what we all now know about him.  Maybe she did, but at the very least, she saw upfront she was agreeing to marry someone who had no real consideration for her. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by nokidsmom

[Tatar-tot]

23 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Sorry, I paraphrased badly and shouldn't have used quotes.  Will never stop loving him means the same and that's the line to which I was referring.

And “……to hell with our daughters.  It is all about Josh…..”

[Freejin]

So Josh will be in a local jail for 4 months. What is that usually like? Similar to prison in terms of restrictions? 

[Mama Mia]

33 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Ah yes, I did not read their book because I didn't think I could make it through without significant strain from eyerolling. That said, we know how fundies operate, they could have just been 'praying' for that time, and hoping god wouldn't give them a pregnancy. Or maybe they're lying.

Obviously they could be telling the truth, I'm just hesitant to believe anything other than "yes we use birth control" haha

They implied it, or almost stated it even on the show. It was a catch up special with just the married couples? And/ Or maybe a talking head ? They never even seemed very embarrassed about it, or at least Jeremy didn’t. It was couched more in, “we’re taking a little time to get settled before we have a baby” than “ we use a combination of condoms and the rhythm method, my favorite brand is Trojan” but that would be true of most people.

[SassyPants]

Last night during a period of insomnia I was thinking about the M kids and the TTH. Aside from Mack, hanging at the TTH would be rather boring for the other kids, as unless other GKs are present, there are no longer any young kids in residence. TG the 2 oldest M boys have each other, and poor girl M 2. I hope the older girls include her. Do you think JB and M invited Anna for dinner after the verdict? 

[Tatar-tot]

You know I was thinking about Josh and everything that started at age 12.  My guess, from my Lucy 25 cents therapy stand, the hormones were just beginning to explode, his resentment of the ever expanding family,  and Josh being forced to be a supplemental parent rather than out playing baseball with his buddies his behavioral allowed him to act out with our suffering the anger of his parents.

 From there his behavior just kept escalating and escalating.  Groping his siblings became an easy outlet for his sexual frustrations and anger towards his parents.  

Josh and the rest of the Duggar clan need some serious intensive therapy.  I hope Josh gets into one of these sexual deviant programs before he is released. Otherwise I could see his behavior quickly escalate when released.  

[Freejin]

Just now, Tatar-tot said:

You know I was thinking about Josh and everything that started at age 12.  My guess, from my Lucy 25 cents therapy stand, the hormones were just beginning to explode, his resentment of the ever expanding family,  and Josh being forced to be a supplemental parent rather than out playing baseball with his buddies his behavioral allowed him to act out with our suffering the anger of his parents.

 From there his behavior just kept escalating and escalating.  Groping his siblings became an easy outlet for his sexual frustrations and anger towards his parents.  

Josh and the rest of the Duggar clan need some serious intensive therapy.  I hope Josh gets into one of these sexual deviant programs before he is released. Otherwise I could see his behavior quickly escalate when released.  

What kind of rehab is typically offered to these types of offenders?

[Alisamer]

29 minutes ago, OrchidBlossom said:

Ah yes, I did not read their book because I didn't think I could make it through without significant strain from eyerolling. That said, we know how fundies operate, they could have just been 'praying' for that time, and hoping god wouldn't give them a pregnancy. Or maybe they're lying.

Obviously they could be telling the truth, I'm just hesitant to believe anything other than "yes we use birth control" haha

I would assume that they use non-hormonal methods like Jill and Derrick - likely tracking her cycles and possibly condoms either during fertile times or all the time. If she really got pregnant on the first try like Jeremy said in their book, they must be being careful. 

Really they could be doing anything though. If they are edging toward more mainstream mega-church style, most of those I don't think have much problem with birth control, as long as you're not getting abortions. They want young, hip families, not huge broods of children.

Just now, Freejin said:

So Josh will be in a local jail for 4 months. What is that usually like? Similar to prison in terms of restrictions? 

My understanding (from a co-worker's son who in the past did two stints in prison and several jail stays), is that jail is usually much worse than prison. Less comfortable, fewer privileges, less routine,  less time out of the cell, no work details, constant noise, more boring, harder to get any "luxuries" (like underwear), etc. It's not really meant for long stays. He says prison was more comfortable, even though it sucked horribly. 

That said, sex offenders might have a different experience?

18 minutes ago, Freejin said:

How is a prison chosen once someone has been sentenced? Is it just wherever there’s a free bed?

He'll be in federal, so it could be anywhere I think? I don't have any personal knowledge of this but I'd guess it'd be wherever has a free bed, possibly in a sex offender unit. And he can get moved if they decide to move him. 

Co-worker's son was in state prison, not federal, but he got moved several times over the course of his stay. 

[Tatar-tot]

34 minutes ago, Freejin said:

How is a prison chosen once someone has been sentenced? Is it just wherever there’s a free bed?

 

4 minutes ago, Freejin said:

What kind of rehab is typically offered to these types of offenders?

If you go to the BOP.GOV you can find the programs. They apparently run 12-18 months and are the last part of their prison stay.  I have no idea on the success rate. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

33 minutes ago, Freejin said:

How is a prison chosen once someone has been sentenced? Is it just wherever there’s a free bed?

Emily D. Baker, YouTube attorney extraordinaire, says they'll sometimes try to keep them close enough for their kids to visit but it depends on bed availability and in Josh's case especially, security. He's probably better known in Arkansas than other parts of the country. All we can say is that he'll be headed to a Federal medium security somewhere after sentencing. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

29 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

The Dillard v. Springdale trial was originally scheduled to start yesterday under the same judge. There was a lot of activity on Court Listener through 11/30. Do any legal eagles think it resulted in a settlement based on the filings? It’s the suit about the sisters claiming their constitutional rights were violated when the poorly redacted report identified them as minor victims.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6074458/dillard-v-city-of-springdale-arkansas/?page=2

That judge must be so sick of the family by now.

26 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

And “……to hell with our daughters.  It is all about Josh…..”

I wonder if some of this is purity culture. Not only are their daughters women, therefore inherently worth less than their brother, but now they’re impure too.

16 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

You know I was thinking about Josh and everything that started at age 12.  My guess, from my Lucy 25 cents therapy stand, the hormones were just beginning to explode, his resentment of the ever expanding family,  and Josh being forced to be a supplemental parent rather than out playing baseball with his buddies his behavioral allowed him to act out with our suffering the anger of his parents.

 From there his behavior just kept escalating and escalating.  Groping his siblings became an easy outlet for his sexual frustrations and anger towards his parents.  

Josh and the rest of the Duggar clan need some serious intensive therapy.  I hope Josh gets into one of these sexual deviant programs before he is released. Otherwise I could see his behavior quickly escalate when released.  

This is an interesting idea. So Josh was acting out towards his parents but on his sisters. 

[OrchidBlossom]

16 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I would assume that they use non-hormonal methods like Jill and Derrick - likely tracking her cycles and possibly condoms either during fertile times or all the time. If she really got pregnant on the first try like Jeremy said in their book, they must be being careful. 

Really they could be doing anything though. If they are edging toward more mainstream mega-church style, most of those I don't think have much problem with birth control, as long as you're not getting abortions. They want young, hip families, not huge broods of children.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

They implied it, or almost stated it even on the show. It was a catch up special with just the married couples? And/ Or maybe a talking head ? They never even seemed very embarrassed about it, or at least Jeremy didn’t. It was couched more in, “we’re taking a little time to get settled before we have a baby” than “ we use a combination of condoms and the rhythm method, my favorite brand is Trojan” but that would be true of most people.

I must not have seen that episode/clip. Don't get me wrong, I totally could believe that they use birth control, Jeremy was pretty worldly and comes from a regularly sized family, much like Derick. I just know that fundies do a lot of ambiguous statements that could either be taken as progressive or later explained away as meaning 'prayer and fasting and being open to god' and such. So something like "taking time to get settled in" sounds like birth control, but it just doesn't fully convince me.

[HoneyBunny]

15 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

You know I was thinking about Josh and everything that started at age 12.  My guess, from my Lucy 25 cents therapy stand, the hormones were just beginning to explode, his resentment of the ever expanding family,  and Josh being forced to be a supplemental parent rather than out playing baseball with his buddies his behavioral allowed him to act out with our suffering the anger of his parents.

 From there his behavior just kept escalating and escalating.  Groping his siblings became an easy outlet for his sexual frustrations and anger towards his parents.  

Josh and the rest of the Duggar clan need some serious intensive therapy.  I hope Josh gets into one of these sexual deviant programs before he is released. Otherwise I could see his behavior quickly escalate when released.  

Let’s be honest. His parents had 19+ kids. There’s something a little off in that. They were either timing their copulating to the exact right time as soon as Michelle was “clean” after having once child in order to quickly produce the next, or they were having sex with a frequency that few couples of their increasing age and family size would be able to manage. They were all living in a 3 (I think) bedroom house. Josh likely understood what was going on at a very young age and heard the action in his adjoining room with some frequency. The focus was on sex, sex, sex, as it is so much in the purity culture. 
 

At least, I choose to think that this played a role. I don’t like to think of another reason he might have developed unhealthy attitudes towards sex. 

[Italiangirl]

Do we know if Josh could have conjugal visits while awaiting for sentence? He is not in federal prison now right? Or will anna nust be able to visit him with kids? 

[SassyPants]

4 minutes ago, HoneyBunny said:

Let’s be honest. His parents had 19+ kids. There’s something a little off in that. They were either timing their copulating to the exact right time as soon as Michelle was “clean” after having once child in order to quickly produce the next, or they were having sex with a frequency that few couples of their increasing age and family size would be able to manage. They were all living in a 3 (I think) bedroom house. Josh likely understood what was going on at a very young age and heard the action in his adjoining room with some frequency. The focus was on sex, sex, sex, as it is so much in the purity culture. 
 

At least, I choose to think that this played a role. I don’t like to think of another reason he might have developed unhealthy attitudes towards sex. 

At the very least, that home, which the family lived in until Josh was 17, was not a healthy environment. And both JB and M are more than a tweak shy of healthy, reasoning adult role models. And in case anyone wonders what I’m trying to say, IMO, JB’s oddities go beyond his sexual behaviors.