(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 46: Counting On - 16 Weeks Until Sentencing

[neuroticcat]

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Does anyone here think that JB and M knew/know how to love, nurture and raise children in a manner that would/could lead to healthy adults, and functioning, successful members of society at large?  Do any of these people have the skills needed to live independently from the mothership? Why did the Duggars join the cult in the first place?

I don’t know if I’ve asked this already, but is Anna her own headship, or is JB now in charge? Do JB and M now get to claim that they have 28 kids? 
 

Where were Anna’s parents? All those people expected Anna to honor her vows and the system, but no one thought they needed to help her do that the last 2 weeks, especially today? They sent David? Eff her parents.
 

Yes, Anna should have bailed 4 kids ago. Her choices are really coming around to bite her in the ass-

No. Nope. Nopediddlydope. They have raised every one of those children in a cult that does not value children as individuals and values them only as extensions of parents . If the kids grow up to become healthy and functional it is a testimony to their own strength and the support of outsiders. 

[cheeseandrice]

My husband has a sicko cousin who traveled across state lines to meet a 15 year old who thankfully turned out to be an FBI agent.   He got 12 years in federal prison.  I think he did his time in Kentucky.  He was already pretty ostracized from the family before this because there was something off but never proof. After his arrest he got zero support because what he did is repulsive and vile. We were glad he was convicted. I can’t imagine a single family member supporting him in any way. Much less try to spin the situation to be anything other than hideous and disgusting.

[Not that josh's mom]

25 minutes ago, JillyO said:

I highly doubt it. One of the family pilots will just fly her there and back. 

She'd still have to be able to support all those kids and herself. Would JB feel like supporting them except in the windowless warehouse? I'm not entirely sure he will even do that. 

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

This may be the beginning of Josh’s problems. Under a new law, child sexual abuse victims have until age 55 to bring charges. Josh’s childhood victims can now press charges.

https://greenandgillispie.com/in-the-news/arkansas-extends-statute-of-limitations-for-child-sex-abusers/

 

I doubt anyone in the family, or any other victims from their Fundie circles, will be pressing charges. The only way I see it possible is if one of the sisters worried that Josh might molest his own kids when he came out of prison.  Otherwise, I think they would not want to make waves, just to punish Josh.

It’s an interesting possibility, though.

ETA: I have read further and it seems this wouldn’t put him in prison for longer, it would just be suing for money.  I can’t imagine anyone in the family doing that.

Edited December 10, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Realized it’s only a civil suit.

[TheJewAmongUs]

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

What do we think are the chances of this happening?

It would be years of legal fees with virtually no hope to collect a judgement. I think they'd be hard pressed to find representation.

1 hour ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Here’s a bit of speculation: if Josh is put in prison far away would Anna and the M kids follow him? If so could this actually be a positive? This could get Anna away from the compound with less supervision. Maybe put the kids in school, even if it is a Christian one, and a job.

I think so too. But I think another fundie family will host them. I doubt school is on the table. Maybe if Anna went to one of her non-fundie siblings, but she already turned that option down once. I think there are sadly still enough people enamored with Jim Bob to be the Rebers 2.0.

44 minutes ago, AuntKrazy said:

Sometimes if one has been gaslit so much that one doubts her very ability to perceive reality, it may be therapeutic to have a formal hearing.

I believe this is at least part of why there were so many survivor statements at Larry Nassar's trial.  There is value in simply standing up and saying "I matter"after experiencing this.

The Arkansas law is for civil suits only. They can sue him for money, they can't bring criminal charges. Giving a statement at his sentencing for these crimes would be a better avenue for them than years of legal proceedings to get a monetary judgement out of Josh, whose future income does not look promising.

39 minutes ago, Fjrocks said:

   Someone on Twitter pointed this out and I went back and found it, it's from Josh's statement when the very first scandal broke out.  

“Twelve years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends,” Josh, 27, tells PEOPLE in a statement. “I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing, and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life.”

Source:  https://people.com/crime/josh-duggar-child-molestation-accusations-19-kids-counting-star-responds/

He was already cheating on Anna back then and what he described 3 months later as addiction to pornography.

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, Mela99 said:

Can someone explain this to me - is there something in Fundie ideology that says it’s okay to lie for the benefit of yourself? I keep thinking about that and wondering why they aren’t afraid for their souls.

JB cannot believe that horseshit he’s trying to sell. He knows it’s a lie. He knows he lied on the stand.
He knows Josh is guilty.

Why isn’t this an unbelievable sin on all their parts to try and perpetuate this?

I think they might interpret this as a situation where “obeying Gods ways” is more important than submitting to civil authorities. They don’t respect civil authorities, and the cult specifically teaches them to not go to them and try and handle things yourselves. I can definitely see this as giving them leeway lie when it suits them and to still feel self-righteous. I think JB knows Josh is guilty 100 percent but that his role as headship means he has God given authority greater than civil authorities, so he must still control all the others and be wise and protect his financial interests. 

Similarly, they could justify lying to the younger kids as encouraging their faith or whatever. The reality is that we have watched these people on TV as though they are quirky baptists or something. They are not. There is overlap but their religious practice is a cult - it’s why one of the first things they teach little kids is new definitions for things. They absolutely will pray about it, do what they think is best, and have zero qualms if it is in conflict with civil authorities, because civil authorities are secular. Ditto with CPS, therapists, etc. 

[Mama Mia]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I think Josh divorcing Anna would be the kindest behavior he could bestow on her

But not so great if he just takes on a newer, younger, prison groupie to make more babiez with in 10 years.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

5 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I doubt anyone in the family, or any other victims from their Fundie circles, will be pressing charges. The only way I see it possible is if one of the sisters worried that Josh might molest his own kids when he came out of prison.  Otherwise, I think they would not want to make waves, just to punish Josh.

It’s an interesting possibility, though.

I mean, if someone is already on the outs, is it really making waves? 
 

They might want to rethink the shunning policy.

[zee_four]

26 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

I don't think the judge can use Josh's actions as minor in the sentencing for a separate crime. Whether that works on him subconsciously is another question though.

I'm not sure he'd consider Josh's attorneys to be idiots. They did what they had to do. And I don't think he'd punish Josh because he didn't like the attorneys. 

I know WOACB is saying Josh will get more than 10 years because that was offered to him as a deal. But we don't know that was a final deal offer. And the judge isn't bound by the prosecutor's offers. All we can say for sure now is 5 years is the minimum and 20 years is the max. 

Actually in sentencing they can. Especially if it was allowed into the trial which has a much higher burden of proof. Sentencing is when victims and victims families get to speak and their desires have an impact most of the time. Sentencing is carried out by the probation department in state cases and in federal cases there's a similar pre-sentencing psychological exam carried out. If there was evidence this is not the first time a crime like this was committed, whether or not the convicted person admits guilt and shows remorse, all of those impact sentencing. I'm also wondering if Smuggar will swallow his conservative evangelical fundie, white male pride and go through the motions about how he needs help and he's so sorry to the victims and what have you. If he is going to insist that he's innocent that will impact sentencing in the negative. So yeah sentencing has a much lower burden of proof so stuff that wasn't allowed into evidence in the trial will make an impact so I really hope the judge does look at his previous behavior. This will be where their insistence he got help in the past legitimately will bite Golden Smuggar in the ass, because the judge will see it as him not being redeemable ergo a longer sentence. At least in theory. 

[neuroticcat]

3 hours ago, MedicineWoman said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/rcsmp2/megathread_4_ding_dong_duggar_in_jail/hnx8oal?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

This has the ring of truth to me. I think fundie snarkers have a much better idea than the general public how controlled this family is, but I think only ATI/IBLP people could tell us for real how controlling and abusive the family dynamics are. And I think the Duggars probably were even more controlling because of the pubic eye and the testimony they had to give.

Those still under Duggar control have no agency unless it aligns with JB’s choices. Stepping outside of that equals estrangement and being villainized to the rest of the family. We have seen it with the Dillards but I don’t think we know how costly it probably was. I hope this is a line in the sand for some of the others and they will leap over it and not look back. If several of them do, they really could provide each other with a support network.

2 hours ago, Fjrocks said:

  UGH!  Can I rant about Pickles and WOACB???

 Both of them have in their postings included Josh's booking details, which doxes the home address of his kids. 

   Spare me your conspiracy theories and outrage and worry about his children all for clicks and attention.   Clean up screenshots before you post them, that's incredibly unsafe. 

 They both should publicly apologize.   They would be furious is someone endangered them like that.

I agree in theory, absolutely. But FWIE the Duggar home address is no secret and public knowledge, so I’m not sure it’s particularly putting the M kids at risk. I don’t know these two beyond their reputation here. 

[GiggleOfGirls]

Got my booster! Finally caught up on the threads.

 

I feel a bit sappy but here goes:

 

I cannot adequately express how thankful I am for FJ. I have been here since Yuku and sometimes I’ve posted quite a bit (lost some of my post count in the updates and such, I think), but mostly have lurked off and on in recent years. 
 

When I first found FJ, I was in the middle of doing a deep dive of research on Quiverfull, Above Rubies, and Vision Forum because I was still a Christian and my old church had become inundated by that stuff. We thankfully moved several states over (USA) before I was able to get sucked into it all.

 

This message board and many of y’all have helped me through a good amount of deconversion — so much so that I’m an agnostic Pagan now 😂 — and I’m so thankful that I stumbled upon FJ all those years ago and that FJ is still here. 
 

Also, I’m doing well so far post-booster (just a sore arm and headache that are both better since I took ibuprofen a bit ago) and the encouragement I got here yesterday and today helped so much with my anxiety! 😊

 

 

[anon710]

I am in no way caught up, but I want to thank everyone here for being here. That I can leave or lurk for years on end, and FJ is still here. 
I still remember some of your avatars. 
 

thank you 💓

[HaiLai]

1 hour ago, GiggleOfGirls said:

This message board and many of y’all have helped me through a good amount of deconversion — so much so that I’m an agnostic Pagan now 😂 — and I’m so thankful that I stumbled upon FJ all those years ago and that FJ is still here. 

Same here. I was raised in a very religious family, but I always had doubts about my religious upbringing. All my friends were religious too, so I thought there was something wrong with me. Free Jinger helped me to realize I’m not alone.

I started watching the Duggars’ TV show out of curiosity. I was intrigued by how devoted they were to their faith. At the beginning, I found the show entertaining, but then I started seeing and hearing things that were, at least to me, questionable.  I started wondering if it was just me, or if there were others thinking the same. So I googled reviews for the tv show and I stumbled across Television Without Pity, and there I learned about Free Jinger. I was hooked. I even told my husband I found my people, lol.

I have finally come to terms with my views about religion. I’m currently agnostic theist. My husband and son fully supported me (now they’re both atheists). Last  year I finally had the courage to tell my mom I’m no longer Catholic, and surprisingly she took it very well. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by HaiLai

[AuntCloud]

It’s been an emotional day. Let us sing.

Oompa Loompa doompadee doo
I've got another puzzle for you
Oompa Loompa doompadee dee
If you are wise you will listen to me
Who do you blame when your kid is a pest
Free to lie and cheat and molest?
Blaming the kids is a lie and a shame
You know exactly who's to blame:
The mother and the father!
Oompa Loompa doompadee dah
If you're not spoiled then you will go far
You will live in happiness too
Like the Oompa Loompa doompadee do

On a more somber note, Carrie Underwood’s “Blown Away”. There’s not enough rain in Oklahoma Arkansas to wash the sin out of that house.

 

 

[neuroticcat]

Not sure where to post this, but I decided here since so many of us are asking questions like: What are JB and Michelle thinking? What will Anna do? I think I found Heather Heath’s Instagram page (@backsliddenharlot). She has written a book about her experiences in IBLP called Lovingly Abused that I plan to read. Anyway, she has a highlight with some insightful context. I’ll post a few screemshots below, because I think it highlights why we are left over and over again saying WTF? IBLP Duggars are on another planet. 

Spoiler

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by neuroticcat
Fixed spoiler

[Jinder Roles]

@neuroticcat

Holy shit, that's next level controlling! I've seen some ATI/IBLP materials and wisdom booklets but using math problems to illustrate evilness? Comparing stages of gestation to holy sacraments? Absolutely nuts. 

Seeing stuff like this is why I usually refrain from commenting on the "is Anna responsible or is she brainwashed?"....to me it's both. Unlearning mindsets and leaving your only support systems behind (with the looming threat of hell) is so hard. And yet actively participating continues to cycle of abuse and control for young ones. 

[Ilovebrownies]

Anna should sell that piece of land,  buy herself a passenger van, take off with the kids, and start a Youtube channel.

[OrchidBlossom]

4 hours ago, ElizaB said:

It strikes me that when Anna left court she seems to be holding her own hand. I like to think this is a metaphor for her. The past days she has been led in by Josh holding her hand. Now it is on her. She doesn't have a headship. She only has herself. While a lot of us have sympathy for her and have expressed that she was trapped- for me this ends now. Josh is going to be gone. It is time for her to stand up and put on her big girl pants and take responsibility for the wellbeing of herself and her kids. No more Josh's hand- just hers. 

Actually I believe this was discussed when the first set of scandals came about, IBLP teachings are that even though he is in prison, he is still her headship. She is supposed to basically sit around and wait for him to get out of prison and still follow his guidance or whatever and defer to JB if needed in the interim.

 

At least I think that is how it was said to work? I'm sure someone knows more than me and can confirm or deny.

Edited December 10, 2021 by OrchidBlossom

[SorenaJ]

Anna’s de jure headship is still Josh. 
I’m guessing Anna’s new de facto headship is David Waller, David Keller or Jim Bob. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by SorenaJ

[DottyC]

9 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

If you want to increase the mist, on the reddit thread there are people who are donating in the name of other redditors who aren't in a financial place to donate.

My goodness I love this for so many reasons.

 

However someone must be peeling onions nearby...

[Idlewild]

For me the fact that David Waller seemed to take control of Anna after the verdict is significant - not her parents, not any of her siblings, not her in laws.

I think DW will be negotiating the fallout on her behalf. Whether that is a good thing, given he is part of the same toxic patriarchy cult, remains to be seen.

JB wouldn’t negotiate with a woman, Anna is probably too exhausted to think and looks up to DW.

I looked on the Duggar FB page- the humpers are offering their prayers for JB, M & Anna- they don’t give a shit about any of the victims. Most of them were asking what CSAM is - the lack of any need to educate themselves is astonishing. I’m afraid that many of the hard core Duggar fans will see this as just another ‘mistake’ by Josh, that Anna is a modern day saint and that JB & M raised 18 good children, so not their fault one transgressed. And of course, that’s exactly what JB is relying on.

[imokit]

So according to that reddit, there are 2 siblings currently cut off.

We know Jill is one of the two, but I'm genuinely stumped as to the 2nd.

I can't decide between Jinger - she's in LA and wore short skirts and pants the quickest of the lot as well as used birth control within seconds of being married. 

Or Joy.  She seems to still be following the party line, but her and Austin's behaviour at the trial, wasn't there to support Josh.  According to reports Derrick seemed closer to the Duggar borg than Austin (not blaming either, just rehashing facts).

 

Then as dark horses - Josiah - his Instagram's gone private and John.  Both have seemed to do their own thing quietly for a while and slipping under the radar.

In fact I'm surprised that there are only 2 kids officially on the outs with JB. 

[theologygeek]

I am so happy that he was found guilty!  It's crazy though.  All the fundies who homeschooled their kids to keep them away from regular kids like ours, sucked up to the Duggars and let their kids be around a disgusting pervert who is now in jail for child porn.  I hope they learn a lesson from all this.  Don't assume that just because someone claims to be a Christian, that they are better than someone who doesn't believe like you.  There is good and bad everywhere.  

[Buzzard]

Since someone other than a Duggar needs to be blamed… how long until this is because of birth control?  Michelle’s miscarriage of J’Caleb was the fault of BC- perhaps they’ll twist josh’s damaged soul to it as well?

[WiseGirl]

I would rather have Anna go to and be supported by her siblings that left this crazy cult  than those still un it so they could deprogram her and the kids. But that will happen when pigs fly.

And here is the Dillard's People article. FYI I went with People because they were the least triggering for me and they did daily summaries. 

https://people.com/tv/jill-duggar-derick-dillard-say-today-was-difficult-after-josh-duggar-found-guilty-in-child-porn-case/