Carlin & Evan 9: Whatever Carlin's Trying, She Isn't Nailing It (& Why Is Layla a Naked Hippy Baby?)

[theotherelise]

Early 30s and I don't have social media, so no pics of my kid on social media. And this is a kid who still hasn't met my grandparents or any of my aunts and uncles or cousins because he was born at the beginning of the pandemic. I sent out a photo postcard birth announcement.

[lumpentheologie]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:27 PM, just_ordinary said:

I also don’t think there is a problem with mentioning how tiny or big you are. Everyone can see she is really slim. People get so sensitive over weight it’s really irritating. So she is really slim and obviously has bounced back quickly and completely. Why not be proud of it? Just like you can be proud of your stretch marks, after baby bump, extra pounds and love the “new” look of your body. Both mindsets are fine

Thinking it's irritating that heavy people get sensitive over weight is like men thinking it's irritating that women get offended at sexist jokes. You really need to take a look at your own privilege here if you are a thin person. Fat people are a structurally oppressed group, so it's not fine to be proud of being a size 0. It's like the people who have straight pride parades and it needs to stop. Having pride in being part of a privileged group is not anywhere near the equivalent of having pride in being part of an oppressed group -- it's actively furthering the oppression that's a problem in the first place.  

I'm really not sure how much more we can spell this out for you if you still haven't gotten it after all the discussion in various threads. 

[OldFadedStar]

1 hour ago, kmachete14 said:

I took it to mean he got her ready all by himself . . . and the outcome was cute. 

I'm not white knighting, either. I just would probably say the same thing. 

My husband dresses my daughter all the time. But he doesn't always come out with a cute, picture-perfect, matching outfit. If he put together a really good one, I'd be impressed. 

I think Carlin just wanted to show off Evan's fashion sense with his daughter. 

I'm also curious of the ages of people saying they won't put their kids on social media. I'm in my late twenties and every parent I know, am friends with, cousins, etc. puts stories up of their kids basically all day. It's how we connect socially and let people see our child grow up, since the utopian dream of a neighborhood community with grandma and grandpa and my best friend and her kids as neighbors isn't a reality. 

I’m 31 and I put limited curated pictures of my daughter. I do consider what may be embarrassing. 
 

I have a photo album on iCloud for my family members to see pictures of her. Some of the embarrassing ones go on there , still within limits. That’s more of the everyday watch her grow up since we are a days drive away

[just_ordinary]

4 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

Thinking it's irritating that heavy people get sensitive over weight is like men thinking it's irritating that women get offended at sexist jokes. You really need to take a look at your own privilege here if you are a thin person. Fat people are a structurally oppressed group, so it's not fine to be proud of being a size 0. It's like the people who have straight pride parades and it needs to stop. Having pride in being part of a privileged group is not anywhere near the equivalent of having pride in being part of an oppressed group -- it's actively furthering the oppression that's a problem in the first place.  

I'm really not sure how much more we can spell this out for you if you still haven't gotten it after all the discussion in various threads. 

Why do you assume only heavy people get sensitive over weight? Obviously you get sensitive when your weight gets criticised or your weight range gets discriminated. But that is not what Carlin did in this particular post. Also- if Carlin is proud of being smart, her eyes or of a gifted talent she might be privileged also but has not necessarily done anything for it. No reason not to be proud ow thinking it’s awesome. She also might have put effort into getting back to her old weight and feel it’s a personal accomplishment. I am not thin (anymore), but I also don’t get my knickere in a twist if someone is happy with their appearances when that’s way more aligning with the mainstream beauty standards then I do without instantly assuming it’s a hidden (conscious or unconscious) criticism to my life or choices. 
I also didn’t read the comment as coming from someone overweight and personally badly affected, but rather someone who was more concerned about the underlying messages in general. There are also enough thin people that hate the weight topic and think such posts are idiotic and obnoxious. 
I don’t deny the problems you mentioned, but not everything touching certain topics needs to be cooked on such a high temperature. It devalues valid arguments and important discussions and pushes for changes. But that’s my very personal point of view and everyone is free to disagree, dislike or think I am doing people like myself a disservice. 

[lumpentheologie]

19 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Also- if Carlin is proud of being smart, her eyes or of a gifted talent she might be privileged also but has not necessarily done anything for it. No reason not to be proud ow thinking it’s awesome. She also might have put effort into getting back to her old weight and feel it’s a personal accomplishment. I am not thin (anymore), but I also don’t get my knickere in a twist if someone is happy with their appearances when that’s way more aligning with the mainstream beauty standards then I do without instantly assuming it’s a hidden (conscious or unconscious) criticism to my life or choices. 
I also didn’t read the comment as coming from someone overweight and personally badly affected, but rather someone who was more concerned about the underlying messages in general. There are also enough thin people that hate the weight topic and think such posts are idiotic and obnoxious. 

I don’t deny the problems you mentioned, but not everything touching certain topics needs to be cooked on such a high temperature. It devalues valid arguments and important discussions and pushes for changes. But that’s my very personal point of view and everyone is free to disagree, dislike or think I am doing people like myself a disservice. 

I think it's pretty conceited to be proud of being smart. Or of any unfair advantage you did nothing to earn, like coming from a rich family. It's fine to be proud of your achievements (as long as they don't hurt other people), but being proud of unearned things is just thinking you're better than other people for no good reason. Modesty is really a virtue in these cases. (Maybe there are some cultural or linguistic differences here, but for me this kind of pride always implies looking down on other people.) 

That's not to say people shouldn't value and celebrate their bodies, but that's different than the pride that comes with privilege. Thin people are welcome to celebrate their bodies as long is the focus isn't on their thinness, just as white people are welcome to celebrate their bodies as long as the focus isn't on their whiteness. Carlin posting about being a size 0 (a size 30 in most of Europe) is explicitly celebrating her thinness, and that's why it rubbed so many of us the wrong way. 

And if Carlin is proud of being so tiny because she's putting work into keeping herself that tiny (and she probably is), that's an achievement that's harming other people. If someone is at an unhealthy weight and gets down to a healthy one, that is something to feel proud about. But this was never the case for Carlin. Bragging a size about being a size 0 has nothing to do with health -- it's just glorifying thinness for the sake of thinness, and winning in such an oppressive system is nothing to be proud of. 

That is the underlying message (as you put it), and it is fatphobic and very harmful. I don't see why you think someone has to feel it's directed at them personally to be harmed by it. It's harmful because it reinforces diet culture, which isn't about health at all, it's about only thin bodies being socially acceptable. This justifies people with thin bodies treating others as not fully human and convinces people who aren't super thin to think of themselves as defective (or even people who are super thin, in the case of eating disorders). Diet culture and fatphobia are harming all of us every day, whether we realize it or not, just like other oppressive structures (white supremacy, sexism, homophobia, etc) are harming us all (although clearly some much more than others.) These are things that are worth getting upset about, and being upset about them hardly devalues pushes for change--an unwillingness to accept things as they are is exactly what pushes change forward. 

It's very frustrating to keep seeing posters insisting this (and sometimes other structural systems of oppression--but recently it's been mostly this one) doesn't exist and that all we should care about is how we are treated personally, as if that's all that affects us.  

[formergothardite]

I think there is a difference between sharing pictures of kids on social media  with close friends and family and putting pictures of children out there for strangers and as a way to get money and attention for the parents. With the Bates the kids are a huge part of the brand and they can’t consent to having their childhood moments put up as entertainment for strangers. 
 

[SassyPants]

12 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I think there is a difference between sharing pictures of kids on social media  with close friends and family and putting pictures of children out there for strangers and as a way to get money and attention for the parents. With the Bates the kids are a huge part of the brand and they can’t consent to having their childhood moments put up as entertainment for strangers. 
 

Right. Monetizing kids and their lives is exploitation, while sharing photos on a private account, IG, as an example, is not. 

[SorenaJ]

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

I think it's pretty conceited to be proud of being smart. Or of any unfair advantage you did nothing to earn, like coming from a rich family. It's fine to be proud of your achievements (as long as they don't hurt other people), but being proud of unearned things is just thinking you're better than other people for no good reason. Modesty is really a virtue in these cases. (Maybe there are some cultural or linguistic differences here, but for me this kind of pride always implies looking down on other people.) 

That's not to say people shouldn't value and celebrate their bodies, but that's different than the pride that comes with privilege. Thin people are welcome to celebrate their bodies as long is the focus isn't on their thinness, just as white people are welcome to celebrate their bodies as long as the focus isn't on their whiteness. Carlin posting about being a size 0 (a size 30 in most of Europe) is explicitly celebrating her thinness, and that's why it rubbed so many of us the wrong way. 

And if Carlin is proud of being so tiny because she's putting work into keeping herself that tiny (and she probably is), that's an achievement that's harming other people. If someone is at an unhealthy weight and gets down to a healthy one, that is something to feel proud about. But this was never the case for Carlin. Bragging a size about being a size 0 has nothing to do with health -- it's just glorifying thinness for the sake of thinness, and winning in such an oppressive system is nothing to be proud of. 

That is the underlying message (as you put it), and it is fatphobic and very harmful. I don't see why you think someone has to feel it's directed at them personally to be harmed by it. It's harmful because it reinforces diet culture, which isn't about health at all, it's about only thin bodies being socially acceptable. This justifies people with thin bodies treating others as not fully human and convinces people who aren't super thin to think of themselves as defective (or even people who are super thin, in the case of eating disorders). Diet culture and fatphobia are harming all of us every day, whether we realize it or not, just like other oppressive structures (white supremacy, sexism, homophobia, etc) are harming us all (although clearly some much more than others.) These are things that are worth getting upset about, and being upset about them hardly devalues pushes for change--an unwillingness to accept things as they are is exactly what pushes change forward. 

It's very frustrating to keep seeing posters insisting this (and sometimes other structural systems of oppression--but recently it's been mostly this one) doesn't exist and that all we should care about is how we are treated personally, as if that's all that affects us.  

What about being proud of something others can never achieve, even though the work hard? Can you be proud that you ran a mile when others are paraplegic? Can you be proud of publishing a research paper when some people have severe intellectual disabilities? Can the ballet dancer be proud of their work when someone lost a foot due to diabetes? 
 

Can you be proud of your hard work, even when others could not achieve the same, with the same amount of work? 

[rebeccawriter01]

On 11/2/2021 at 2:07 PM, kmachete14 said:

I'm also curious of the ages of people saying they won't put their kids on social media. I'm in my late twenties and every parent I know, am friends with, cousins, etc. puts stories up of their kids basically all day. It's how we connect socially and let people see our child grow up, since the utopian dream of a neighborhood community with grandma and grandpa and my best friend and her kids as neighbors isn't a reality. 

I don't put my kids pics on social media. Privacy is a big thing for me and social media is hard enough without worrying about their privacy too. One of my friends has a mother who is a photographer. She asked her mother to not share pics of her daughter. In both our cases and other friends too we believe if you are friends, family, etc. then you don't need to see every pic because you are already involved in their lives. If distance is the issue, then I share things privately but in all honesty my friends and I have more to discuss than our kids. Our time together is based on shared interests, etc. that don't include our children.  

[Mrs Ms]

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

I think it's pretty conceited to be proud of being smart. Or of any unfair advantage you did nothing to earn, like coming from a rich family. It's fine to be proud of your achievements (as long as they don't hurt other people), but being proud of unearned things is just thinking you're better than other people for no good reason. Modesty is really a virtue in these cases. (Maybe there are some cultural or linguistic differences here, but for me this kind of pride always implies looking down on other people.) 

That's not to say people shouldn't value and celebrate their bodies, but that's different than the pride that comes with privilege. Thin people are welcome to celebrate their bodies as long is the focus isn't on their thinness, just as white people are welcome to celebrate their bodies as long as the focus isn't on their whiteness. Carlin posting about being a size 0 (a size 30 in most of Europe) is explicitly celebrating her thinness, and that's why it rubbed so many of us the wrong way. 

And if Carlin is proud of being so tiny because she's putting work into keeping herself that tiny (and she probably is), that's an achievement that's harming other people. If someone is at an unhealthy weight and gets down to a healthy one, that is something to feel proud about. But this was never the case for Carlin. Bragging a size about being a size 0 has nothing to do with health -- it's just glorifying thinness for the sake of thinness, and winning in such an oppressive system is nothing to be proud of. 

That is the underlying message (as you put it), and it is fatphobic and very harmful. I don't see why you think someone has to feel it's directed at them personally to be harmed by it. It's harmful because it reinforces diet culture, which isn't about health at all, it's about only thin bodies being socially acceptable. This justifies people with thin bodies treating others as not fully human and convinces people who aren't super thin to think of themselves as defective (or even people who are super thin, in the case of eating disorders). Diet culture and fatphobia are harming all of us every day, whether we realize it or not, just like other oppressive structures (white supremacy, sexism, homophobia, etc) are harming us all (although clearly some much more than others.) These are things that are worth getting upset about, and being upset about them hardly devalues pushes for change--an unwillingness to accept things as they are is exactly what pushes change forward. 

It's very frustrating to keep seeing posters insisting this (and sometimes other structural systems of oppression--but recently it's been mostly this one) doesn't exist and that all we should care about is how we are treated personally, as if that's all that affects us.  

Definitely somewhat of a language/interpretation thing. For me the word “Stolz” (German) doesn’t have any sneering at others attitude attached to it. Though I feel arrogant has more of that in English than pride fwiw. 

[lumpentheologie]

21 hours ago, Mrs Ms said:

Definitely somewhat of a language/interpretation thing. For me the word “Stolz” (German) doesn’t have any sneering at others attitude attached to it. Though I feel arrogant has more of that in English than pride fwiw. 

Interesting, coming from a Catholic background pride is one of the worst sins. Do they use a different word for that meaning in German? I was always taught it's a sin because it means thinking you're better than others and treating them as less than. 

(I know the evangelicals have gone in a totally different theological direction with pride though.) 

Eta: Just looked it up and in German it's Hochmut for the sin. So maybe that's part of the issue?

Edited November 4, 2021 by lumpentheologie

[Smash!]

Hochmut in German means pride in the sense of looking down on someone and thinking they are less than you. I think it‘s an older word, in daily life I use the verb „arrogant“ (same word in English I think) to express that sentiment.

What is the difference between pride and arrogance in English?

[SeekingAdventure]

I would say the difference between "Stolz" and "Hochmut" is comparable to pride and arrogance.

If I got a good mark in an exam, I studied hard for, I can be proud of that. (stolz)

If I got a good mark in an exam, because I cheated and didn't get caught, that's Hochmut. There's a saying: Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall (Pride comes before the fall?). So you're 'proud of yourself' because you thought you were really smart and cheated and didn't get caught. But there's always the chance somebody can find out, and it will bite you in the ass.

So, when it comes to looks, one can be proud that he/she nailed the hairstyle that was desired, or really did a good job with make up, picked out a nice outfit and be happy about it.

If you're proud about being genetically skinny, that's a bit weird. Be proud of reaching your goal to achieve the body type you want to have, but not everything has to be announced. One can be proud about something without announcing it to the world. I think they would call it, and I am sure fundies are not aware of that concept Being modest..

 

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, Smash! said:

Hochmut in German means pride in the sense of looking down on someone and thinking they are less than you. I think it‘s an older word, in daily life I use the verb „arrogant“ (same word in English I think) to express that sentiment.

What is the difference between pride and arrogance in English?

I think the difference is that pride can sometimes have a positive meaning. I'm sure there's a lot of cultural variation within the English-speaking world though. In my usage it's primarily a negative word with a few positive exceptions. Standing up for yourself in the face of intense difficulty or oppression (as in gay pride), and being proud of your hard work or of your children are good, I think -- as long as it's just being pleased with how it/they turned out. It's a spectrum though and even with most positive uses the danger of sliding into arrogance is always there.

But as Americans we are also encouraged to have pride in groups we belong to, for no real reason except to make us feel like we belong to that group and are opposed to other groups. So we're supposed to have pride in our schools, our country, etc. I've always been really uncomfortable with this and the us vs them mentality it creates but some people see it as harmless enthusiasm. I guess I'm proud to be from Alaska (since life there is pretty hard, but we survive it), but I've never been proud to be an American. One of the things I like about living in Germany is that there's less expectation of this kind of pride. 

ETA: @SeekingAdventure Pride comes before the fall is 100% a saying in English, and one that often comes to mind when looking at the Bates and Duggars. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by lumpentheologie

[JermajestyDuggar]

Fundies pick and choose the sins they want to avoid. They ignore so many sins laid out in the Bible while hyperfocusing on others. 

[meee]

Pride comes before the fall is biblical, kind of.

Proverbs, 16:18. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

[Jackie3]

On 11/1/2021 at 5:45 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

What I hate most is just using your children as a way to make money. I respect the celebrities that keep their kids off of social media.

I agree. I hate the way they push the camera in their kids faces, saying "Are you excited?" "Are you excited Grandma's coming?" "Are you excited about the new baby?"

Basically, they are saying, "Give me some emotion for the camera, be cute for the camera, say something funny for the camera." Then they can take those words and lead with them on youtube: "Lexi wants a bunny not a baby sister!!!!"

[AussieKrissy]

Trivial I know and maybe semantics

But Carlin put up a post about sephora and in it she put that the only products she uses for her hair are olaphlex (??who knows the spelling).

I was like dam girl I am sure I have seen you (like half your fam) shilling that custom made shampoo stuff. I was like dam hypocrite 

I was totally shocked that a Bate's could possibly be a hypocrite regarding anything to do with earning money. Almost as shocked as when I found out JD Duggar is a pilot

[WannabeHistorian]

Carlin posted on Instagram that they're throwing the gender reveal party Saturday.

[FaithAndReason]

On 11/16/2021 at 10:40 PM, WannabeHistorian said:

Carlin posted on Instagram that they're throwing the gender reveal party Saturday.

🙄

[JuanitaBanana]

Carlin just posted a story of the whole family playing charades and when Lawson acts like he's shooting one of the kids you can clearly hear someone yell: George Floyd! 

She will probably delete the story soon because it's all over reddit and people are really angry about it. 

[JuanitaBanana]

Aaand it's gone. Carlin deleted the story but the video is still available on reddit. People are saying it was most likely Nathan the one who said it. 

[rexasaurus_nirb]

How absolutely disgusting and unsurprising. I hope that goes viral and ends their show.... 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

It probably won't end their show, but I hope something does soon. These people use their white privilege and picture-pretty image to hide their true selves. I hope something shows who they really are.

Also they wouldn't find it funny if a member of their family had died like George Floyd.

[marmalade]

2 hours ago, JuanitaBanana said:

Aaand it's gone. Carlin deleted the story but the video is still available on reddit. People are saying it was most likely Nathan the one who said it. 

It was Trace. But still, never forget Kelly's "Patriotic Room" with the picture of Nathan Bedford Forrest. Recall that she claimed ignorance about who he was. 

Bigotry apparently dies hard in that family.