Dillards 88: 'Cause We're Living in a World of Fools

[AprilQuilt]

41 minutes ago, SweetLaurel said:

How could her working hinder that?  Most people make more than day care costs?  

<snip>

That's wonderful if that's the case in the US, but here in the UK a gigantic hurdle to returning to work is how expensive childcare is. It's often the case that a mother's take-home salary is just barely more than what childcare costs, and might even be less, especially if she has several kids in paid care. It's what puts a lot of women off returning to their careers. Eg at the nursery my child attends, the cost to keep her in full time nursery each months is £75 more than my half of all our household bills. To pay for both and manage to more than squeak by, I'd have to be earning a generous professional salary.

I can see why someone like Jill, who is unskilled and may not have a clear idea of what kind of work she wants to do or is suited for, might wait until the kids are in school and/or Derick is earning. They clearly don't have an overwhelming financial need for her to be bringing in money right now, and that's probably for the best as it's going to be a huge culture shock for her, as much as she might want to do it. They are obviously focussing on Derick's career right now and given the way they are talking right now, that may well open up the way for her to get education or training in the future.

[lexiloumarie]

40 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

That's wonderful if that's the case in the US, but here in the UK a gigantic hurdle to returning to work is how expensive childcare is. It's often the case that a mother's take-home salary is just barely more than what childcare costs, and might even be less, especially if she has several kids in paid care. It's what puts a lot of women off returning to their careers. Eg at the nursery my child attends, the cost to keep her in full time nursery each months is £75 more than my half of all our household bills. To pay for both and manage to more than squeak by, I'd have to be earning a generous professional salary.

I can see why someone like Jill, who is unskilled and may not have a clear idea of what kind of work she wants to do or is suited for, might wait until the kids are in school and/or Derick is earning. They clearly don't have an overwhelming financial need for her to be bringing in money right now, and that's probably for the best as it's going to be a huge culture shock for her, as much as she might want to do it. They are obviously focussing on Derick's career right now and given the way they are talking right now, that may well open up the way for her to get education or training in the future.

It's honestly the same here too. We spaced out ours to avoid that issue because at a certain point it doesn't make sense to work unless you love what you do (and I do). 

I had a coworker who quit teaching after an accidental pregnancy. She already had 3, 2 in daycare. The costs are insane and we're in a commuter zone for a major city. I can't imagine being closer. 

[SassyPants]

The financial aspect plays heavily into why most couples don’t have copious numbers of children. I’d say working professionals have the fewest number of children because the attainment of such careers is costly, physically, mentally and financially. People who are wealthy from birth and those who do not have the earning power more readily have more children, IMO. Not many people are able to walk away from careers that pay well and offer other needed benefits, health insurance as an example, in the absence of family wealth (a fall back).

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Now that Derick is about to finish his lengthy education, my guess is that Jill will be pregnant soon, and then will have a fourth child as a companion to #3, and then they will be done. A lot of things could happen that could keep her as primarily a full-time mom, but I think that she will get some further education and eventually get a job. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

If that was the case, you would have thought DD would have chosen a spouse who also possessed the ability to support a family. Or used birth control from the beginning, waiting to procreate until his wife attained some marketable skills. Maybe DD thought the TLC gig would last forever? Maybe, when he met Jill, he was still grieving both the loss of his dad, and then his mother’s illness? 

Derick seemed to really believe that Jill was a midwife when they got married. 

 

[sableduck]

1 hour ago, lexiloumarie said:

It's honestly the same here too. We spaced out ours to avoid that issue because at a certain point it doesn't make sense to work unless you love what you do (and I do). 

I had a coworker who quit teaching after an accidental pregnancy. She already had 3, 2 in daycare. The costs are insane and we're in a commuter zone for a major city. I can't imagine being closer. 

I have a master’s degree and three kids ages 11, 9 and 6. My oldest has autism so care would be more expensive anyway.  Even with a master’s, I can’t make enough to cover full day care during the summers.  Even after school care would be tough.

[SweetJuly]

Personally I like to imagine that Jill would go to school, and potentially earn a degree and go to work, because she seems intellectually curious and did once express a desire to learn a profession (midwife). 

Now it's fully possible that she has changed her mind and would rather be a SAHM. If that's the case and she's happy, that's great too.

[SweetJuly]

Regarding childcare, it is indeed prohibitively expensive in many places. Here in Brussels there are some public crèches, but it's almost impossible to get a spot unless you know the right people. Our yet unborn son is on waiting list spot 451 for a public crèche in our neighbourhood... Private crèches are often twice as expensive (around 850 Euros/month where we live), and there'd be practically no point in me working if we had two children in private day care.

The only saving grace is that kindergarden (école maternelle) starts at 2.5 years and is practically free if you send your child to public school. Private schools, however, are insanely expensive.

[JanasTattooParlor]

I don’t have kids, but many of my coworkers do and they always complain about how expensive childcare is. As a teacher we don’t get paid much to begin with and the daycares around where I am are minimum $600-$1000+ a month and you have to pay for them through the summer to keep your spot reserved for when the school year starts up again. They have insanely long wait lists and one coworker literally started looking at daycares as soon as she got out of her first trimester because she knew she’d be back in the classroom the minute her maternity leave was over. She only got a spot at the one closest to our school because another teacher vouched for her with the daycare. I’m still a couple years off from having kids, but I’m so torn on what I’ll do when the time comes. 

[medimus]

36 minutes ago, SweetJuly said:

Regarding childcare, it is indeed prohibitively expensive in many places. Here in Brussels there are some public crèches, but it's almost impossible to get a spot unless you know the right people. Our yet unborn son is on waiting list spot 451 for a public crèche in our neighbourhood... Private crèches are often twice as expensive (around 850 Euros/month where we live), and there'd be practically no point in me working if we had two children in private day care.

The only saving grace is that kindergarden (école maternelle) starts at 2.5 years and is practically free if you send your child to public school. Private schools, however, are insanely expensive.

When I was working in Belgium as a doctor, we had a poster in the waiting room which was of a positive pregnancy test. It was a PSA to the public to start looking for a childcare spot as soon as you got the positive!

I think Brussels is worse than surrounding Belgium though and there is a maximum that the creches can charge and if you choose a Flemish school rather than Francophone there are no charges for kindergarten at all and it really does start at 2.5 years old.

[BullyJBG]

I don't think Jill likes to talk about it, but since she gets asked about it a lot, she feels she needs to clarify something. And she's still re-programming that she CAN think for herself. I am SO curious to know which siblings are more supportive of their choices, or who are less supportive. And I'm sure there are those that secretly envy them; key word being SECRETLY. But they can't tell anyone, and trying NOT to, probably. My guess is Johannah, if not now, then definitely later. After all she's the one who has video footage on the Internet somewhere of her pooping on Jimbob, and once she finds out, she likely will fight to have it removed. Maybe even threaten Jimbob or TLC; remove it, or I'll go live with Jill. She turns 16 this year, so that may wait another 2 1/2 years.

[SassyPants]

If #3 is a girl, I can see them stopping at 3. Prior to Dereck’s glitches(2014), he seemed fairly practical. I think he realizes children require and deserve lots of attention, time, parenting, guidance and financial support. This realization is foreign to most Duggars.

[NotQuiteMotY]

5 hours ago, SweetLaurel said:

How could her working hinder that?  Most people make more than day care costs?  Curious about the thinking on this?  Or did you just mean her going back to college?   I am a Strong advocate of women getting and keeping a skill updated throughout their lives, even if they have the option to choose to stay home for a long while.  For many it is not an option.  Plus I've talked to too many 'stuck' women who can't leave a bad situation because money and no skills, and widows who have never worked and lose everything when their husbands die and suddenly divorced women who are starting over in their fifties.   

Honestly? Sometimes it's just easier to have one person being point person or usually available if something comes up. And if they're planning on having any more, the costs and logistics of daycare, afterschool care, etc. may be too much for their finances, especially when you look at what jobs she is currently qualified for.

For the record, I think she should see about getting some skill/qualification that she can take care of herself and their kids if the worst were to happen. If she wants to work with childbirth still, something like a doula or lactation consultant would give her an opportunity without having to do a full nursing degree (this might depend on their state). I think everyone should do that; heck, I keep a PT job even though I'm nominally a SAHM because I want some kind of employment record, and if I had a professional qualification/license I'd be keeping that up to date, as well. With little kids and/or the possibility of more, though, I wouldn't be surprised if she's waiting until all their kids are in school during the day to give her more opportunities for studying or working, especially since she's basically rebuilding herself right now and might not even know what she wants to do yet.

[SweetLaurel]

8 minutes ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

Honestly? Sometimes it's just easier to have one person being point person or usually available if something comes up. And if they're planning on having any more, the costs and logistics of daycare, afterschool care, etc. may be too much for their finances, especially when you look at what jobs she is currently qualified for.

Of course we'd all like a 'wife' to stay home and take care of everything - that just isn't an option for most/many people.   She has the same qualifications as many people.  I know many women with their kids in day care who work at the gas station, waitressing,, Walmart and cleaning offices.  Like I have always said - SAHM is a great gig if you can get it, but going back into the work force after  20 or 30 year gap on your resume sucks.   Get a skill, keep it updated.  Now is a great time for her to start that.  She can take one class on line.   Look at Anna - 'sure she can leave with zero skills and 4 kids! Easy peasy!'  yeah.  No.  Even if her brother said he would help her, how long would that last?  He wasn't supporting her forever.  He'd expect at some point she'd get a job and start helping with expenses.   I just have heard too many stories to accept SAHM is a safe and easy path in the long run.  Sure, it works out for some, but for a lot - it simply sucks eventually.   

[NotQuiteMotY]

1 hour ago, SweetLaurel said:

Of course we'd all like a 'wife' to stay home and take care of everything - that just isn't an option for most/many people.   She has the same qualifications as many people.  I know many women with their kids in day care who work at the gas station, waitressing,, Walmart and cleaning offices.  Like I have always said - SAHM is a great gig if you can get it, but going back into the work force after  20 or 30 year gap on your resume sucks.   Get a skill, keep it updated.  Now is a great time for her to start that.  She can take one class on line.   Look at Anna - 'sure she can leave with zero skills and 4 kids! Easy peasy!'  yeah.  No.  Even if her brother said he would help her, how long would that last?  He wasn't supporting her forever.  He'd expect at some point she'd get a job and start helping with expenses.   I just have heard too many stories to accept SAHM is a safe and easy path in the long run.  Sure, it works out for some, but for a lot - it simply sucks eventually.   

I'm not arguing? My entire second paragraph was agreeing that she should really work on getting a marketable skill in case stuff hits the fan. Even if they can afford her being home now and she enjoys it, that may change in the future and it's a good idea to be prepared.

You asked @samurai_sarah about the thinking behind her post, and while I'm not her I was answering the question from where I stand (SAHM, with two kids a little younger than Jill's) and what I can see Jill/Derick reasoning without actually being them.

Edited March 25, 2021 by NotQuiteMotY

[AussieKrissy]

2 hours ago, BullyJBG said:

I don't think Jill likes to talk about it, but since she gets asked about it a lot, she feels she needs to clarify something. And she's still re-programming that she CAN think for herself. I am SO curious to know which siblings are more supportive of their choices, or who are less supportive. And I'm sure there are those that secretly envy them; key word being SECRETLY. But they can't tell anyone, and trying NOT to, probably. My guess is Johannah, if not now, then definitely later. After all she's the one who has video footage on the Internet somewhere of her pooping on Jimbob, and once she finds out, she likely will fight to have it removed. Maybe even threaten Jimbob or TLC; remove it, or I'll go live with Jill. She turns 16 this year, so that may wait another 2 1/2 years.

Wait, what??? Where have I missed this discussion about leaked footage???? 

Also, never bitching bout my government again. Well not this week anyway. Childcare is rebated here. I pay about 30 bucks a day. I can’t complain. 

[Bad Wolf]

I thought it was Josie who had the blow out. She was also shown having a seizure. Poor kid.

[AussieKrissy]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

I thought it was Josie who had the blow out. She was also shown having a seizure. Poor kid.

Ahhhhhhh I see now, I thought I was reading a line about Johannah bitching (pooping on) Jim Bob on some secret released video. I was like how the hell did I miss that. My bad lol. 

[SweetJuly]

4 hours ago, medimus said:

 

I think Brussels is worse than surrounding Belgium though and there is a maximum that the creches can charge and if you choose a Flemish school rather than Francophone there are no charges for kindergarten at all and it really does start at 2.5 years old.

I wrote practically free because lunch or garderie etc. do cost money. And the Jewish school we visited charges extra for the security they unfortunately require.

We would love a Flemish school, but we already have 4 languages at home, including French, so adding Flemish to the mix would be a bit much. I do grieve the fact that schools in Belgium are not all by default immersively bilingual. I understand the historic reasons why, but feel it's such a waste when you could raise the entire population to speak both Flemish and French from early childhood. 

[SorenaJ]

In the UK it is hard for many mothers to work when the childcare is £1200 per month, and that's about the same as what they earn. If you have two little ones (sibling discount is a joke), it is almost impossible for many. The term after the child turns 3, you get 15 hours per week during term time for free, so that helps somewhat. 

[IsmeWeatherwax]

RE child care costs in UK. I worked part time before my youngest 2 were born. Just shop retail but it was during school hours so fitted in brilliantly. Until the school holidays. I worked mon-fri 9am to 1pm So I took 2 days paid holiday for the 6 weeks and put my girls into child care the other 3 days, worked out 4.5 hours per working day as it was just round the corner.

My point being! Child care for 3 days was £125.00. My pay per 5 days was £100.00. I was down £25 per week. My 3 days of child care was more expensive than my full weeks pay. 15 years later and Im still shocked by it.

[Irishy]

Interesting point about Death Divorce Disability. I guess that concern speaks to the inadequate welfare provision in the US. In most of Europe, those instances do not mean financial ruin. Welfare and housing support provides a safety net. Which is not a perfect system, at least here in Ireland, but strong rights to social protection exist. 

[Travelfan]

On the subject of the expense of childcare and future careers for Jill...she could easily be a nanny when her children get older. I am a nanny and it can be a very lucrative career.  I was an education major in college and my mom was so upset that I decided to work as a nanny instead of as a teacher. I made far more money as a nanny. I then had my own kids and was a SAHM for many years. When my youngest got to his teen years I began working as a nanny again. I would definitely be fine and live very comfortably in the event of any of the 3 Ds. Childcare is very expensive but that could work to Jills advantage if she ever wants to go into childcare (in a nanny position, obviously daycares/preschools/in home childcare do not pay as well).  

[TooManyFlowers]

My guess is Jill will eventually go back to school to become a therapist. But I think it’ll be much further down the road. 

[Idlewild]

3 hours ago, TooManyFlowers said:

My guess is Jill will eventually go back to school to become a therapist. But I think it’ll be much further down the road. 

I see this as a lot more likely than being a nanny or nurse. Whatever progress these two have made, they still seem to enjoy being in the public eye and reaping the rewards of a social media following. They’ve even said they haven’t ruled out a return to TV on their terms.

I can’t see Jill doing a job where she can’t continue to keep her social media presence, endorsements and gifts from her followers. That would be totally incompatible with professional childcare or health care. I can see her getting some sort of counselling  qualification ( I doubt it will be a full psychotherapist)and setting herself up as a Christian marriage counsellor - mainly via podcasts and books rather than patient appointments.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Idlewild