I'm a Reformed Person in VF/ATI circles. Ask Me Anything.

[twin2]

I sure didn't. Have one friend who did though. Said it was a lot of fun, and that nothing mischievous took place.

Feel free to snark. :) This is the place to do it.

Since you were so kind as to answer my snarky question I"ll ask two non-snakry ones:

1. What is the history between Doug and Geoff Botkins? How did they become acquaintance/busisness partners (or whatever they are I really don't know). What is their relationship like now? I'm curious because I haven't seen Geoff on any of Doug's missions nor was Doug and family at David's wedding.

2. What is the relationship between Gothard and Doug like. I envision them as frenemies.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Don't feel bad treemom, I'm getting the brush off, too. It's kind of shitty to waltz in here saying "ask me anything" and then ignore the women that get too uppity.

You're quite precious, aren't you, KnightInShiningAmore? Aren't you worried about your purity here in this den of internet iniquity?

Lissar and Treemom, I'm not trying to ignore anyone I promise. I've very sorry, I'm just way overwhelmed and bogged down in questions here and was using two different methods of sorting, which ended up in several being missed entirely. I didn't quite expect this response, nor did I think I would put this much effort into answering these questions.

[demgirl]

That is incredible, and makes sense. That's why he's so off the radar. Or at least, it's a theory. I'll do my best to figure that out, though they'll do their best to hide that information now that it's been speculated about on Free Jinger.

So they do read here! Is FJ ever discussed? Because sometimes it seems like we say something and the next thing you know, there's a blog, or event, or whatever to "prove us wrong".

[clibbyjo]

Do Doug and Beall actually seem to like each other?

[GenerationCedarchip]

Yes to one, no to two. Geoff has promoted his own image to the point where he can't live up to it. He is conflicted, distracted, and not healthy. He had some kind of health problem that the entire family kept quiet, and I thought it was cancer at first. When he moved to Tennessee for 'health reasons' I assumed it wasn't cancer, but I'm still not sure what it is, or if it's been resolved.

Victoria is a bit of a hippie (you all got that one right!) but she is a very happy person. She's the least dominion/build-an-empire oriented of all the Botkins, and perhaps the least American. She seems to miss the New Zealand life somewhat, and the simpler times of relaxing with little Botkin children instead of following the big ones around. But in spite of that, she is far from depressed, or she hides it well.

I was happy to see this. Perhaps it's because I also came from very conservative, reformed circles, but I always found her very interesting from afar and she seems to radiate a certain warmth that a lot of the women I met did not. Don't know the family personally, though.

I'm still reformed theologically, but not part of the rather insular fundie church I grew up in and certainly a lot less conservative in my beliefs than the teachings I received. I'm always curious to see what others who stepped away from the VF/reformed world make of things, so this is interesting reading.

[debrand]

What was wrong with men from New Zealand? Do they like American men?

How do the men in Vision Forum treat women? Are women allowed to express different opinions? From the outside, it looks like there is a line between men and women. It's as if women can't approach too far into the world of Vision Forum males. Is that true?

To be honest, I would have LOVED an amazon cruise like Doug took. Only I'd like it minus Doug, of course. LOL Do any of the women get jealous that the guys get to go off and do fun things like Amazon cruises? Did the Vision Forum staff just assume that no woman would want such an adventure?

[treemom]

Lissar and Treemom, I'm not trying to ignore anyone I promise. I've very sorry, I'm just way overwhelmed and bogged down in questions here and was using two different methods of sorting, which ended up in several being missed entirely. I didn't quite expect this response, nor did I think I would put this much effort into answering these questions.

No worries. I was expecting a flounce way earlier than this and am cool now. And amused and riveted and absolutely positive daddy robotkins went to vanderbilts since you dropped the he is ill thing on us.

[formergothardite]

You know the interns all have their popcorn and are refreshing this thread like crazy too! I'm not sure what it says about my social life that this is the best Friday night I have had in some time! LOL

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Thank you.Another one,is their a rivalry,friendly or other wise between VF and ATI? Between Gothard and Phillips?

I never hear Doug bring it up. But I know for some families at Boerne, it's a taboo topic. Some feel ATI is a horrible despicable cult that God freed them from. Others recognize the good the ministry does internationally and praise that, while ignoring the obvious cult-like symptoms. Some praise the cult-like symptoms because they resemble VF. Others still just avoid the topic, and when it's brought up make careful plotted statements about the pros and cons of ATI.

In ATI, VF is looked upon as borderline heretical bondage of women. Focus on Covenantal theology and the 'law of God' and the 'Law-Word' of God is seen as legalistic and backward. Typically criticized for being overly political, not washed in the spirit, or leaning on works instead of grace, or having an improper view of what works are or are not required, Vision Forumers aren't made welcome in ATI circles, from my experience.

[DomWackTroll]

I tried posting these questions earlier, but they didn't seem to go through, so if you see them twice, please excuse me.

1. Can you tell us everything you know about Doug's relationship with billionaire Dr. James Leininger? Do you have any idea of how much money Leininger has poured into VF? Does Leininger own the home that Doug and his family live in?

2. Does Beall Phillips seem like a happy and satisfied person to you? Any interesting stories about her?

3. Do any VFers ever roll their eyes and/or make snide comments behind Doug's back about his over-the-top theatrics?

4. Do any VFers ever criticize Doug for exploiting his children for publicity purposes?

[skankbiscuit]

Is Peter Bradrick in love with Kelly or does he just view her as a broodmare?

[meda]

yes, please dish Peter B. Also, Blair Brown and her teenage husband, how did that come about?

[Witsec1]

Maybe we should start a donation fund for Knight's carpal tunnel operation...

[demgirl]

yes, please dish Peter B. Also, Blair Brown and her teenage husband, how did that come about?

Yes, Blair Brown and Taylor Tsantles. What was that all about? Why did a 17 year old feel the need to get married? How in the world is a teenager going to provide for a QF family?

[KnightInShiningAmore]

OK. I'm interested.

1) Do you know anything about Doug's relationship to his sister Alexandra? As a jeans-wearing, Tim Curry admiring, Europe-traveling, yoga-practicing woman, she doesn't quite fit his views of how women should act. Does she ever show up at VF events? Any sense of how she feels about her brother?

2) When you say you believe in modern science, do you mean evolution?

3) What is Liberty Phillips really like? What are her interests? Any chance she might fulfill my daydream of her running off to NYC or Paris and becoming a feminist hipster???

4) Anything going on between Joshua Titus and Elizabeth Botkin?

5) How do the girls cope with being told constantly that their role is subservience for the rest of their lives?

1 Doug loves his family, and admires their accomplishments. He spends a huge part of his ministry sincerely praising the virtue of family unity, and he does his best to demonstrate that to his own flesh and blood. But they definitely look down on him as the blacksheep, and he feels that sting. He pretends it's his conviction that separates, but honestly I think he would rather spend more time with them than they allow or care for.

2 To some degree, yes. I disagree with most hypothesis on how the universe came to be, and most of the timeline, but I think there is theological and scientific support for evolution happening right now and historically. But this isn't about me.

3 Ha ha, I'm sorry but I think your dreams may be dashed. She is fiery, and Beall loves it. Doug does too, and I think Virginia may actually pass up everyone for fiery spunkiness in the Phillips home. But she really loves the family theology and all their friends.

4 There might have been once, isn't now as far as I know. Josh is traveling with Doug a lot these days, but I don't hear much about the Botkins in those trips at all. I think he had a thing for her once though.

5 In my experience, they're not told that. The Botkin sisters are trying to get a lot of people to wake up to their interpretations of 'subservience'. They're a bit more free spirited than most girls in the community, and many fathers highly disapprove of the sisters clothes, attitude, 'seductive looks' and heavy makeup. They are pushing the walls of the community open a little further than many would like, but I've never seen them bridled or corrected by their father as they often claim on their blog. He almost seems to sit back and chill when it comes to the girls. Again, this is the part of the Botkin family that seems most contrary to their public image.

[tabitha2]

Vision Forumers aren't made welcome in ATI circles, from my experience.

What about families that espouse both such as the Duggars and Bates families? On that subject,Tell us something of the Bates Family if you can,Please.

[stabbycat]

Unfortunately I won't be able to stay up with some popcorn and an adult beverage, but I hope someone stickies this thread so I can see it first thing in the morning.

Any idea why the older Duggar girls aren't married yet? Is Jim-Bob that intimidating, or is it just really hard to find suitors who are willing to be followed around by cameras?

[debrand]

yes, please dish Peter B. Also, Blair Brown and her teenage husband, how did that come about?

Yes! How the heck did Blair end up with a teenage husband? And we want all the juicy information on Bradrick. LOL

Poor guy. Can your fingers keep up with these questions?

[theologygeek]

That is incredible, and makes sense. That's why he's so off the radar. Or at least, it's a theory. I'll do my best to figure that out, though they'll do their best to hide that information now that it's been speculated about on Free Jinger.

Do you ever hear people in the VF circle talk about this site?

[debrand]

Unfortunately I won't be able to stay up with some popcorn and an adult beverage, but I hope someone stickies this thread so I can see it first thing in the morning.

Any idea why the older Duggar girls aren't married yet? Is Jim-Bob that intimidating, or is it just really hard to find suitors who are willing to be followed around by cameras?

I have to go to bed too.

A question about suitors for girls. Is it very difficult for girls to find husbands within the Vision Forum community?

[twin2]

Someone brought up in another thread earlier this week that FJ was the TMZ of the fundie world. After this thread, I think its official.

[Boogalou]

Unfortunately I won't be able to stay up with some popcorn and an adult beverage, but I hope someone stickies this thread so I can see it first thing in the morning.

Any idea why the older Duggar girls aren't married yet? Is Jim-Bob that intimidating, or is it just really hard to find suitors who are willing to be followed around by cameras?

I have a feeling this will not need to be stickied, it'll just naturally be right at the top. There has not been such a fast moving and popular thread in a long time (if ever).

[treemom]

I have a feeling this will not need to be stickied, it'll just naturally be right at the top. There has not been such a fast moving and popular thread in a long time (if ever).

I just am glad it is a Friday night. With my newish job I can't keep up here on a normal day!

[onlyorganic]

Hi! Don't mean to ask something taboo, just wondering if you can speak to Mr. Disharoon's character. And yes, I agree with you that I think Doug does a lot of things because he's naive... but seriously, no one could have *nudge* nudge* "Mr. Phillips, it would appear Mr. Bradrick is sitting on your leg in that photo, and that you are gently, oh so gently being that older, man, manly friend in *too* fond a manner." Or does everyone at VF live under a rock?

[masagoroll]

Knight, we love you! Thank you for this thread!

It makes me happy that it seems like Botkin is LESS strict w/ his daughters than we expected.

I really want to know if people every talk about Free Jinger, too!

P.S. You know what SHOULD be between Joshua Titus and Elizabeth? ME. :wink: They are some defrauding fundies!