I'm a Reformed Person in VF/ATI circles. Ask Me Anything.

[Justme]

Do you know the maxwells? How are they and their products viewed by people in your group? Will Steve ever find a husband for Sarah?

[twin2]

I believe that Doug is charismatic. He wouldn't be able to gain so many fans if he didn't have charisma

Also he would not be able to get as much money to go play dress-up around the world.

[VeraAnne]

So basically Doug Phillips =Tobias Funke?

[Marian the Librarian]

Yes to one, no to two. Geoff has promoted his own image to the point where he can't live up to it. He is conflicted, distracted, and not healthy. He had some kind of health problem that the entire family kept quiet, and I thought it was cancer at first. When he moved to Tennessee for 'health reasons' I assumed it wasn't cancer, but I'm still not sure what it is, or if it's been resolved.

Victoria is a bit of a hippie (you all got that one right!) but she is a very happy person. She's the least dominion/build-an-empire oriented of all the Botkins, and perhaps the least American. She seems to miss the New Zealand life somewhat, and the simpler times of relaxing with little Botkin children instead of following the big ones around. But in spite of that, she is far from depressed, or she hides it well.

Thanks very much for your answers. One more question: on another thread, there is a discussion of the Botkins' house being up for sale. Do you know where they've gone?

[treemom]

Marian,

I am even more convinced they moved to Tennessee for him to be treated at Vanderbilt since they are suddenly leaving.

[VeraAnne]

Also, serious question. Do your parents know that you're posting this stuff? If no, what would they think if they found out? Do you live at home?

[xDreamerx]

At least in personality. Despite what others may feel about his theological or worldview conclusions, his historical knowledge is incredible. I'm a very questioning and challenging person- a real rebel child- so I always try to poke holes in what people believe, especially as I get close to them. This is true even when I agree with and love the people I get close to. Doug Phillips is the one guy who the closer I get, the more impressed I am, even if I find more idiosyncrasies.

Doug can recite for hours historical facts, and when I look them up to confirm them, he's accurate to the smallest of degrees. I've also been present when he had discussions with contrary historians or scientists in the top of their fields. His conclusions may be wonky by your standards (or mine) but he has actually put in the hours of reading and research before opening his mouth. He's a very intelligent man, even if you feel it's being put to waste. There's a reason so many people look up to him.

I'm sorry, but this bit is truly hilarious. How can you take someone who adores revisionist history seriously?! I mean this is a crowd that considers colonialism 'beneficial', likes to call slavery the "transatlantic trade" or pretend it never happened, believes that homosexuals somehow helped the nazis, and that we should all time warp back to Jamestown were life was perfect. Get a fucking grip.

[demgirl]

I have to say, this all seems 100% legit to me actually. Obviously coming from a different viewpoint than most of us, but everything Knight is saying makes a good amount of sense. Here's what I want to know. Doug's detractors include a former Vision Forum member who sought his help when her husband was having issues that made him abusive and her side of the story is that Doug essentially told her to tough it out and that it was her fault for not being submissive enough. At what point would the VF crowd put their foot down if a husband was abusing his wife or children? How bad would it have to get?

This is very funny, actually:

Doug Phillips, bless his heart, is as clueless as any human being could possibly be about the gayness of those posts. He's a bit like a little kid, he'll say some of the most perverted things with double meanings you could ever imagine. I used to think it was intentional, but after pointing one out to him, he was genuinely shocked and dismayed, and eyed me leerily as though anyone who could know such filth shouldn't be trusted. He's probably right.

HEre's my other question. Peter Bradrick. What is UP with that guy? No, seriously. His weekends are spent leaving his children at home with his wife while he goes and yells at gay people about hell and then he drags his post partum wife to Europe like, 5 seconds after giving birth, which lands her in the hospital and apparently, she almost died. Does he just not care? Or is it just that he assumes that if Kelly dies because of this kind of stuff, it's God's will? Also, what is the deal with his manly preparedness organization?

[meda]

Oh yay...I hope this is real.

2 questions:

Isaac Botkin- insufferable twit who's too good for everyone, or just misunderstood?

David and Nadia - do they have any chemistry together at all?

[debrand]

I'm not a vision forum intern, though I applied for it once. My family is not closely knit with VF theologically, nor do we have a lot of money to give. There are only a few internship slots, and they are given out carefully, compared to the hundreds of submissions they get.

I do know a lot of VF interns/former interns, and could tell you a bit what the experience is like.

Doug Phillips, bless his heart, is as clueless as any human being could possibly be about the gayness of those posts. He's a bit like a little kid, he'll say some of the most perverted things with double meanings you could ever imagine. I used to think it was intentional, but after pointing one out to him, he was genuinely shocked and dismayed, and eyed me leerily as though anyone who could know such filth shouldn't be trusted. He's probably right.

I'm trying to put think how to word this. Is it possible that Doug purposely makes statement with double meanings to see who will understand? You probably didn't approve and let him know what he said was wrong. He realized that you weren't going to be an easy victim and tried to pass his statements off as a mistake. Is that possible? Doug hasn't spent his entire life being sheltered so I find it difficult to believe that he wouldn't understand the hidden meaning behind his words.

Do you know the Harris brothers of The Rebelution? Or do they run in a different circle?

[Bookworm]

Knight, what made you decide to take the somewhat dangerous step of inviting questions from us?

Do you go to a home church or a church in a building?

Do the girls you know (other than sisters) talk about much besides cooking, sewing, babies, goats, and Elsie Dinsmore-ish books? I always had trouble with certain homeschool girls getting any sense of their individual interests.

I believe you when you keep saying nice things about the people you know, since obviously they are your friends. I hope you stick around and survive the first blast of questions then participate in some of our other threads, BTW. As someone who grew up nondenominational, leaning quite fundie, six-day Creationist and all that, I do understand what you mean when you talk about people being intellectual in those belief systems. Some people just love learning – I have since stepped out of thought boundaries I had not realized I put around myself and found a whole new world of things to learn about and it has been incredibly wonderful.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

1. I predict record-setting FJ pageviews for this thread. I'm riveted. Positively riveted. Fundies, ex-fundies, fundie-watchers alike are hitting refresh like crazy.

2. I know our kindly knight is protecting his identity for obvious reasons, but can we get a vague sense of where you fit in this world, Mr. Knight? Apart from being a 20-somethingish white male, I guess :)

3. Were you are the Noor/Botkin nuptials? Was the wedding as grim & cheerless as it appeared online, or did you just have to be there to catch the fun parts?

4. Who is your favorite VF rock star, apart from Dougie? Who is your secret VF royalty girl crush?

5. As an outsider, VF appears positively suffocating, but obviously its member would disagree. What's your take?

6. What brought you to Free Jinger?

7. You don't have to answer any of these if they are too nosey or time-consuming, but since you so generously offered.... thanks! :)

1. You may be right.

2. No real identifiers. You're somewhat close in your description of me though.

3. I was not at either. The Ben/Audri thing was very secret and hush hush. Feelings were hurt about not being invited. (Not mine, but I know a few people were a little shocked at being excluded). The David and Nadia one didn't work timing wise for me, but I have friends who were there. I heard it was unseasonably cold, and lasted a little longer than many of the guests would have liked. One of the girls I knew who went was dressed for very warm weather, and had to snuggle under a blanket at the whole thing.

4. Favorite rock star definitely isn't Doug Phillips. Honestly, he's not super well known so to single him out might give me away. But I do like Voddie a lot. Secret VF girl crush? Right now I don't have one, but I used to think Lourdes was amazing.

5. It's like the modeling, music, engineering, political, or mainstream Christian communities. Some people are unbearably stifling and scary. Some people are incredibly lively and entertaining, and even though you think they're crazy, you want to just be with them. To help them when they fall, to cheer when they succeed. Some people are addictive, even if their 'followers' are not.

6. One of the 2007 interns mentioned a 'hate-speech forum' for people disgruntled with 'Christians in general but specifically biblical Christians'. I found FreeJinger in early 08 and assumed that was it. It wasn't, but I periodically checked it after that anyway.

7. You are welcome, citizen!

[masagoroll]

What are Doug Phillips's sons like?

[debrand]

I'm curious about Peter Bradrick also. He seems like an inconsiderate jerk to his wife.

How close is Peter to Doug? I don't mean to put words in your mouth but those two seem a bit overly friendly.

Between the Botkins and the Philips, which ones are the better parents?

[theologygeek]

No kidding. I'm going to go microwave some popcorn! This is the most fun I've had on a Friday in a long time!

Me too twinny. lol

[skankbiscuit]

I need to know about Peter Bradrick also

[formergothardite]

Me too twinny. lol

Forget popcorn, I'm eating some Halloween candy. I hope the witches cast some spells on this bunch.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Dude. Did you just compare Vision Forum to the Nazis and Godwin your own thread?

I actually recoiled from my computer screen while violently shaking my head in disbelief. I'll give you this, you're entertaining.

I did, and intentionally. There are undeniable similarities. There are also undeniable similarities between Nazis and Republicans, Nazis and Democrats, Nazis and Buddhists, Nazis and Islam.

I think all the comparisons are wrong on many levels, and right on many levels. Wrong because I'm in no way implying that Buddhists or any of the others are responsible for intended genocide resulting in the largest war in the last century.

Charismatic leadership, blind and reckless followers, increasingly intellectual dogma, and about 90 percent good passionate communication, and national/family loyalty are definitely markers of similarity. Also, I aim to please. ;)

[debrand]

By the way, you have good taste in having a crush on Lourdes. She is gorgeous!

Darn you Mr. Knight. I was going to spend the night reading the book, The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. You're just waaa....aaay more interesting. :lol:

[Bookworm]

I'm trying to put think how to word this. Is it possible that Doug purposely makes statement with double meanings to see who will understand? You probably didn't approve and let him know what he said was wrong. He realized that you weren't going to be an easy victim and tried to pass his statements off as a mistake. Is that possible? Doug hasn't spent his entire life being sheltered so I find it difficult to believe that he wouldn't understand the hidden meaning behind his words.

Do you know the Harris brothers of The Rebelution? Or do they run in a different circle?

Debrand, I admit I had the same exact idea. To give half the benefit of the doubt, though, I will say my parents are similar in age to Doug, went to public school, and are still incredibly, incredibly unaware of most slang and double entendres – I used to be too, and nowadays I sometimes hear them say something and totally blush, but I know 100% it was not intentional. Still, Doug says them SOOO often…

[treemom]

Knight,

It was incredibly unseasonably cold the weekend of David and Nadia's wedding. Of all the many things I fault them for the wedding venue for that time of year isn't it. the weather here would have normally been perfect for that wedding. It was like our normal winter day instead. Above freezing but miserable if you aren't appropriately dressed.

[formergothardite]

I'm trying to put think how to word this. Is it possible that Doug purposely makes statement with double meanings to see who will understand? You probably didn't approve and let him know what he said was wrong. He realized that you weren't going to be an easy victim and tried to pass his statements off as a mistake. Is that possible? Doug hasn't spent his entire life being sheltered so I find it difficult to believe that he wouldn't understand the hidden meaning behind his words.

Do you know the Harris brothers of The Rebelution? Or do they run in a different circle?

Yeah, I don't believe for a second Doug doesn't know how these things he says sound.

[Guest Anonymous]

Despite Doug's loathsome views, and his enmity towards women like me, I can see his good qualities. That's part of what fascinates me and makes me sad. Here is a smart guy who does appear to relate well to kids and who has a knack for making the topics that interest him fun and exciting to others. Yet all these qualities that could make him so great get twisted into this terribly anti-woman worldview.

But I'll agree with the crowd that he is hardly an intellectual. He is a bright guy who went to a good liberal arts college. But he is not a rigorous seeker of knowledge, truth or new ideas. He is all about making things fit into his narrow theology, and finding ways to market and monetize the ideas he adopts. He does enjoy posturing as an intellectual though -- but it strikes me as playacting with his tweed suits, libraries of bound books, and his pontificating with the other men.

[twin2]

Yeah, I don't believe for a second Doug doesn't know how these things he says sound.

I don't know, on some levels I can see how he could be the most cluless guy in the world. After all, he is "celebrating the sinking of the Titanic."

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Knight, it's kind of you to answer our questions. Thanks! But I am sorry, I do not believe this one. Show me where Doug Phillips has any impressive academic credentials. His presentation of historical "facts" is so completely twisted and incorrect. Comeon... the Titanic stuff? The WWII stuff? It's fantasy.

Re talk and children: lots of talk =/= theology.

That's where I felt it important to distinguish between potential and conclusions. I agree with some conclusions, disagree with others, and laugh at other still, but he's undeniably a more vivacious reader, a higher IQ, a better communicator, and overall a more academically-oriented person than anyone else in the reformed community that I've met. His family is the same way pretty much.

You may disagree with his presentation of historical facts, and he is pretty opinionated when he does so, but he does put in the research hours in advance. Many other leaders in the Ref/Fundie/MME movements just spout what they want and hope others will research to back it up.

But I bet if you were to find a trivia book about America, and start firing questions at him, you'd have a hard time stumping him. I've sat in lectures of his and just googled every fact he cited, until I was sick of it. He at least does the work of verifying that /somebody/ somewhere can confirm what he's saying, and usually a secular source.