I'm a Reformed Person in VF/ATI circles. Ask Me Anything.

[daharyn]

Oh, right on.

Also, I now have "The Lurkers Support Me In E-Mail" filk stuck in my head. Thanks, KISA!

http://barb.velvet.com/humor/lurkers.html

http://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Lurkers_Support_Me_in_Email

[holierthanyou]

That "Lurkers Support me in email" (or pm) song is fabulous. I love the part about bravery.

[usedtobenice]

KISA, you are a coward.

[meda]

So basically just another example of how FJ is not a hive vagina?

[Brainsample]

So basically just another example of how FJ is not a hive vagina?

Can someone explain what is meant by the whole hive vagina thing anyway?

I'm assuming that by not being a "hive vagina," the operative term there being hive which means we are all mindless, it means that many people participating on this thread had diverse interests in it and therefore had a host of different criticisms of KISA or different unmet expectations?

If truly a hive, we'd have a more limited number of unmet expectations or disappointments in KISA because we'd all be predictable drones, after the same thing?

I don't get the "Waaagh" comment. The majority of the posts here are criticisms of one thing or another. This thread is just one of many if not most.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yeah, Hive Vagina is derived from the concept of a Hive Mind.

And personally, I wouldn't overthink AthenaC's posts; they are a bit weird sometimes (eg, Subject: Welcome to the New Mod Staff).

[valsa]

Can someone explain what is meant by the whole hive vagina thing anyway?

The Hive Vagina thing is a reaction to critics (usually fundies) who come here and act as if every woman on the board has the same views- religious, political, peanut butter, etc. It's been pointed out to many of them that we have members with very diverse views so we are not a hive mind and, given our anti-sexist, anti-misogynist focus and female majority membership, this naturally got twisted into FJ not being a "hive vagina".

I don't get the "Waaagh" comment. The majority of the posts here are criticisms of one thing or another. This thread is just one of many if not most.

Ignore it. To quote Family Guy, "Someone's got a humbug up their butt."

[JesusFightClub]

You can't talk to State and expect a honest discussion. Just can't.

I know my analogy is shitty ;) but who actually thinks KISA is here to help us and not to fuck with us? Who thinks he came to kindly give us some juicy gossip and not for his own agenda?

[FundiesInMyFamily]

Methinks Knight needs to grow a pair. Every single one of us at one time or another has posted an unpopular thought and was called to back up our statement with facts or evidence.

I get the fact that maybe he's young, maybe he's questioning his belief system and doesn't quite know what he thinks or how he feels - this isn't the place for him to find himself. It could be if he just sat back, read, learned, and participated in small ways and let people get to know him - instead he jumps in, blurts shit out, then runs away when he's questioned.

[valsa]

instead he jumps in, blurts shit out, then runs away when he's questioned.

Not only does he run away- he also deletes the things he's said to cover up the stupid. He's basically like a little kid who wets the bed then tries to hide the dirty sheets.

[Boogalou]

You can't talk to State and expect a honest discussion. Just can't.

I know my analogy is shitty ;) but who actually thinks KISA is here to help us and not to fuck with us? Who thinks he came to kindly give us some juicy gossip and not for his own agenda?

I think he is here to drum up interest for Grey's Anatomy and to promote the show. How sneaky!

[Brainsample]

Not only does he run away- he also deletes the things he's said to cover up the stupid. He's basically like a little kid who wets the bed then tries to hide the dirty sheets.

Just like his mentor Dougie? He's big at deleting material and then pulling 180s.

"It's a sin for women to vote" then "Beall votes and always had" while deleting all of that inconvenient content about how women shouldn't vote, though it's still immortalized on the Wayback Machine at the internet archive. He did similar things concerning the allosaur, though he's putting elements of that back online now that the legal matters have resolved, legal not always being synonymous with what is moral. And after the criticism of VF went public via counter cult apologetics groups and within the Southern Baptist Convention, they totally revamped the Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy as damage control. Gee, we never said that the churh was a family of families... We never said that working outside the home was sinful, just "non-normative." Welcome to normativity!

So why would Doug's devoted followers do anything any differently? They're reading from the revered leader's own script. For all their decrying of situational ethics and relative morality, they're sure blind to their own inconsistencies as a group. Why would kids brought up in this mess do anything differently?

ETA about my pet peeve and to clarify for those unfamiliar with the history: Doug just deletes and doesn't offer any kind of explanation as to why the material changed or why they started teaching anything different. With the voting issue, they never addressed the fact that they abandoned the "one household vote" teaching or why they failed to tell people that Beall apparently never followed their teaching. They just did a 180, never explained anything, completely deleted the references to the teaching, and then make bold statements as if they never believed what they taught about voting. As if anyone who criticized this element of VF dogma was nuts and dreamed it all up or something. Poof! It's gone.

With the tenets business, why did they not write an addendum that they updated some of the material. The SBC comes out swinging (sore that they were associated with the fringe and the specific fringe elements of ideas that they liked in the general sense), and rather than writing a note that they updated and tweaked the "Tenets," specifically to clarify the "misconceptions" that people had, they just completely alter the material without explanation. The Tenets once called the church a "family of families." The sage expert Calvinist Baptists in Louisville at SBTS and CBMW specifically criticized the "families of families" concept, and along with a whole lot of other trash doctrine that was more blatantly fringe and aberrant, suddenly one day, VF never believed that the church was a family of families. If they were going to make such significant changes, they should have made some statement about it, no?

[Brainsample]

And thanks for the clarification on the hive issue. Since it's not a term of common parlance ;), I wanted to make sure I was on the right page.

[simplysweet]

:stamp:

I cannot keep up with this thread. I thought it was DOA and I come back to 15 pages........off to catch back up.

KISA say anything else since his deletion spree that was pertinent?

[Brainsample]

Forget it. What's the use?

[lostfemme]

Wow! Epic thread to introduce me to VJ, I *think* I've got a vague idea who the regular posters are and the issues. All the natter about the basic fundy personalities still eludes me, though I certainly know who Doug is now.

Three days of reading some fascinating stuff, I wish it had been 2 months ago.

Just because KIIS might someday return to read this thread, I'd like to say something.

His defense of patriarchy (or refusal to defend it though continuing to uphold it) reminds me of the old commies I meet in Eastern Europe or anyone who remembers how happy everyone was under a dictatorship. Yes, no doubt about it, living under a BENEVOLENT dictator who takes care of you is a good life. Problem is, benevolent dictators have despotic sons and corrupt ministers. Benevolent dictators believe so thoroughly in their own goodness, they refuse to acknowledge the bad.

Is it not the height of Pride (biblically speaking) to imagine oneself completely good in one's perceptions of oneself?

Yes, it's easier to stay happy if one stays a child under a belief system or dictator that has all the authority. But one always remains a child. Essentially, every religion I've ever investigated has made a child-like mind one of it's blessed conditions. Fuck that. I've smelled the con in that since I was seven. It doesn't help that women are pressured more strongly to remain "innocent and pure" like children, for essentially their whole lives. As soon as any system treats questioning as a sin or bad karma or haram, it is a scam that wants absolute allegiance for its own ends.

The problem of patriarchy is the same as the problem with monarchies. Absolute power is so easily corruptible, even on an unconscious level. Give anything or anyone complete authority (a company - hello US banks!) and everything is done to protect the authority rather than human rights and truth.

Growing up is HARD. Real learning is HARD (not the bullshit educations of the fundies which disgust me with their complete lack of rigour and independent thought.) Questioning and looking for answers is HARD. Trusting authorities is the punkass easy way out. The light at the end of the tunnel is that one never has to eat one's doubts and questions, one can make better decisions, one can appreciate so much more and participate in some wonderful aspects of life outside the confines of religious or dictatorial prescriptions.

Guess what Knight! In this world outside VF, we can discuss anything. We don't self-censor as you so obviously do. We aren't afraid of hostility to our ideas, since they are only ideas. We can't claim Truth because truth is in the making.

I don't care how intelligent or benevolent a leader is. I maintain an absolute right to vote him out and question anything he says or does. I would never pick a husband who demanded obedience or even leadership, never join a church or movement that asked for the same. I want to grow up and be an thinking adult, no matter how HARD that is.

As far as the Bible being the most culturally significant book in history, might I suggest a great books class? No one book deserves the worship you give the Bible. Exposing yourself to the greater pantheon of Western art and thought might help you get beyond this need for some comfortable blissful life under flawed systems.

[Austin]

Great post, plot.

to FJ!

[FundiesInMyFamily]

:clap: Well said Plot, I hope it gives our Knight a second thought or two. I hadn't thought about patriarchy from a Dictator/Leader persepective, but it makes perfect sense (at least the way you explain it!).

Welcome to FJ

[Brainsample]

Awesome post, Plot.

Totalitarianism always looks the same, doesn't it? When you strip it down, manipulation and control always looks like manipulation and control. Strip us down into our fascicles/bundles and shove messy life into a predictable little box.

You'll love this. Doug Phillips overuses an expression, "normativitiy." Everyone understands that "non-normative" means sinful in terms of how the group interprets it. When one of his interns got married a few years ago, they actually wrote "Welcome to Normativity" on the back of car window instead of "Just Married." They are a sick, sick bunch.

Loved your comments and insight.

[thoughtful]

Awesome post, Plot.

Totalitarianism always looks the same, doesn't it? When you strip it down, manipulation and control always looks like manipulation and control. Strip us down into our fascicles/bundles and shove messy life into a predictable little box.

You'll love this. Doug Phillips overuses an expression, "normativitiy." Everyone understands that "non-normative" means sinful in terms of how the group interprets it. When one of his interns got married a few years ago, they actually wrote "Welcome to Normativity" on the back of car window instead of "Just Married."

Norma Tivity! I remember her!

Oh, wait -- that's Norma Desmond.

[MamaJunebug]

Wow! Epic thread to introduce me to VJ, I *think* I've got a vague idea who the regular posters are and the issues. All the natter about the basic fundy personalities still eludes me, though I certainly know who Doug is now.

Three days of reading some fascinating stuff, I wish it had been 2 months ago.

Just because KIIS might someday return to read this thread, I'd like to say something.

His defense of patriarchy (or refusal to defend it though continuing to uphold it) reminds me of the old commies I meet in Eastern Europe or anyone who remembers how happy everyone was under a dictatorship. Yes, no doubt about it, living under a BENEVOLENT dictator who takes care of you is a good life. Problem is, benevolent dictators have despotic sons and corrupt ministers. Benevolent dictators believe so thoroughly in their own goodness, they refuse to acknowledge the bad.

Is it not the height of Pride (biblically speaking) to imagine oneself completely good in one's perceptions of oneself?

Yes, it's easier to stay happy if one stays a child under a belief system or dictator that has all the authority. But one always remains a child. Essentially, every religion I've ever investigated has made a child-like mind one of it's blessed conditions. Fuck that. I've smelled the con in that since I was seven. It doesn't help that women are pressured more strongly to remain "innocent and pure" like children, for essentially their whole lives. As soon as any system treats questioning as a sin or bad karma or haram, it is a scam that wants absolute allegiance for its own ends.

The problem of patriarchy is the same as the problem with monarchies. Absolute power is so easily corruptible, even on an unconscious level. Give anything or anyone complete authority (a company - hello US banks!) and everything is done to protect the authority rather than human rights and truth.

Growing up is HARD. Real learning is HARD (not the bullshit educations of the fundies which disgust me with their complete lack of rigour and independent thought.) Questioning and looking for answers is HARD. Trusting authorities is the punkass easy way out. The light at the end of the tunnel is that one never has to eat one's doubts and questions, one can make better decisions, one can appreciate so much more and participate in some wonderful aspects of life outside the confines of religious or dictatorial prescriptions.

Guess what Knight! In this world outside VF, we can discuss anything. We don't self-censor as you so obviously do. We aren't afraid of hostility to our ideas, since they are only ideas. We can't claim Truth because truth is in the making.

I don't care how intelligent or benevolent a leader is. I maintain an absolute right to vote him out and question anything he says or does. I would never pick a husband who demanded obedience or even leadership, never join a church or movement that asked for the same. I want to grow up and be an thinking adult, no matter how HARD that is.

As far as the Bible being the most culturally significant book in history, might I suggest a great books class? No one book deserves the worship you give the Bible. Exposing yourself to the greater pantheon of Western art and thought might help you get beyond this need for some comfortable blissful life under flawed systems.

I promised myself that I'd posted my last on this thread, but I plotzed at plot's post, above (i've quoted it bcz I really, really meant not to post here again [in this thread]) and coming as it does on the heels of Lewis's excellent current post ...

http://thecommandmentsofmen.blogspot.co ... .html#more

.... I couldn't not reply and thank plot for sharing the thoughts. I've been blessed to have come up in a conservative Lutheran tradition, which challenged us to think, even as we were being taught absolutes. It makes no sense to me to accept a spiritual leader's word as law in things theological without searching, studying and questioning; it makes less than no sense to accept anybody's word as definitive on how I should live, based on whether or not a leader feels peace about my current direction. I realize that doesn't make a lot of sense on the face of it, but it will after you read Lewis's latest.

Welcome, plot.

ETA: brainsample, the "welcome to normativity" blessing [sic] and "non-normative" pejorative? Sick, indeed!!! :doh:

[Brainsample]

The photo was on that Nathaniel something or other's blog, Persevero. He apparently switched over to a different site, so my old link doesn't work. I'll post it when I've managed to fish it out from my discs from a couple of computers ago...

Sick.

It popped into my head as a stark example of the black and white thinking that Dougie ascribes to everything. It is either all or nothing, and the nothings are Canaanites or cursed of God or Christians who are twice the sons of hell, having knowledge of the truth but rejecting the truth according to Vision Forum.

[Brainsample]

It once appeared here, but it doesn't come up anymore: http://persevero.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html

[Brainsample]

Norma Tivity! I remember her!

Oh, wait -- that's Norma Desmond.

I'm going to dream about Carol Burnett's rendition of Norma Desmond with Harvey Korman at her side, wearing that awful scull cap.

[thoughtful]

I'm going to dream about Carol Burnett's rendition of Norma Desmond with Harvey Korman at her side, wearing that awful scull cap.

As long as Dougie isn't in the dream anywhere, you should have a lovely, funny dream!