I'm a Reformed Person in VF/ATI circles. Ask Me Anything.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Hi - I'm a guy who has been in the world of Vision Forum and at times ATI for a number of years. I will do my utmost to accurately answer any questions I can about the people you're all familiar with; the Duggars, the Phillipses, the Botkins, the Seppi's, etc. I know more about VF than the rest, yet my knowledge is finite. I won't be answering any personal questions or at least not very many, but swear to honestly answer anything I can about anybody I know. I will cite whether my knowledge is from firsthand account, or just 'through the grapevine' of reformed churches and circles.

I should also state that I do really like the families- for the most part- in these circles. I won't be putting any negative bias or spin on things, but at the same time I won't cover for anything that seems problematic or shameful if I have knowledge of it. If I can help I will. If I can't, I'll at least explain.

[VeraAnne]

Do all the familes you know use the Pearl/NGJ parenting style?

[MonkeyMomma]

Any courtship prospects for Anna Sophia and Elizabeth Botkin, or the older Duggar girls?

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Do all the familes you know use the Pearl/NGJ parenting style?

No. As a matter of fact the Pearls aren't praised very highly among the inner circles of Vision Forum, and are even despised by many inner circle ATI families. Mostly these are for theological differences. For example, VF families are very intellectual and focus on theology and philosophy as primary training and instructional methods for children. To intellectualize them out of sin. ATI takes less of an intellectual approach and a more psychological approach. Trying to really understand the child and what is the root cause of the behavior.

This makes sense, since Doug Phillips is an intellectual and an academic first and foremost, where Bill Gothard's entire ministry is rooted in psychological evaluation and problem solving. They pretty much find the biblical reasons why certain psychological things are true about kids.

The bible is full of wisdom, so both of these approaches work well when the parents really appeal to that transcendent wisdom, instead of using their favorite verses as excuses for child abuse. I have to say though, that when it comes to child raising, Vision Forum approaches children much more like equals than either ATI or NGJ. To a shocking degree, actually.

[treemom]

No. As a matter of fact the Pearls aren't praised very highly among the inner circles of Vision Forum, and are even despised by many inner circle ATI families. Mostly these are for theological differences. For example, VF families are very intellectual and focus on theology and philosophy as primary training and instructional methods for children. To intellectualize them out of sin. ATI takes less of an intellectual approach and a more psychological approach. Trying to really understand the child and what is the root cause of the behavior.

This makes sense, since Doug Phillips is an intellectual and an academic first and foremost, where Bill Gothard's entire ministry is rooted in psychological evaluation and problem solving. They pretty much find the biblical reasons why certain psychological things are true about kids.

The bible is full of wisdom, so both of these approaches work well when the parents really appeal to that transcendent wisdom, instead of using their favorite verses as excuses for child abuse. I have to say though, that when it comes to child raising, Vision Forum approaches children much more like equals than either ATI or NGJ. To a shocking degree, actually.

Except for those pesky female children. Sorry I know you are trying to educate and stuff but I really hate their philosophies. They aren't using real science and psychology behind this stuff, if they were women would be valued on their own.

[treemom]

No. As a matter of fact the Pearls aren't praised very highly among the inner circles of Vision Forum, and are even despised by many inner circle ATI families. Mostly these are for theological differences. For example, VF families are very intellectual and focus on theology and philosophy as primary training and instructional methods for children. To intellectualize them out of sin. ATI takes less of an intellectual approach and a more psychological approach. Trying to really understand the child and what is the root cause of the behavior.

This makes sense, since Doug Phillips is an intellectual and an academic first and foremost, where Bill Gothard's entire ministry is rooted in psychological evaluation and problem solving. They pretty much find the biblical reasons why certain psychological things are true about kids.

The bible is full of wisdom, so both of these approaches work well when the parents really appeal to that transcendent wisdom, instead of using their favorite verses as excuses for child abuse. I have to say though, that when it comes to child raising, Vision Forum approaches children much more like equals than either ATI or NGJ. To a shocking degree, actually.

Except for those pesky female children. Sorry I know you are trying to educate and stuff but I really hate their philosophies. They aren't using real science and psychology behind this stuff, if they were women would be valued on their own.

[Aurora]

Doug Phillips, an intellectual and academic? You must be kidding! :lol:

[Guest Anonymous]

Reformed, what does that mean? You left the cult?

And yea one other question, oral sex, permitted or not?

[liltwinstar]

Where does all the money come from? When I see VF catalogues, videos, photography equipment, European trips, weddings etc etc - it just makes me wonder where all that cash comes from. I have a hard time believing that it just comes from the sale of books and CDs. Thanks.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ask you anything? How about do you still buy into this stuff at all?

I'm too tired to debate my thoughts that none of these camps are in any way intellectual...but maybe someone else isn't.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Any courtship prospects for Anna Sophia and Elizabeth Botkin, or the older Duggar girls?

As for the older Duggar girls, there are some that the girls like that the parents don't, but only in a cutesy crush sorta way. They're far more open about he likes/she likes in their relationships at home than they would ever admit in public. It's been years since I've been close to them, and they've gotten more closed about some of those things to strangers. Within the family, I've heard from a close friend that they still secretly confide in each other and friends about their crushes, and that their parents just warn them to be cautious not to let their emotions get away from them. I know from the same friend that one of the girls, (and I cannot say which one, because I never got a name attached to this) was quite attached to a guy through texting or email or something. It was a mini-scandal in the family, but the extent of the punishment was that she couldn't communicate with him for a while.

As for the Botkins- that is a tricky one. Geoff has said repeatedly that the girls have had a lot of interested suitors, but that they weren't interested in most of them. At first I thought this was probably far-fetched, but being around them I can see the truth in it. For one thing, they are like the trophy catches of the entire Vision Forum world. Most young guys know they don't have a shot, but try for it anyway.

HERE'S THE PART THAT FLABBERGASTED ME: The problem is not Geoff. It's the girls. They have built up such an aloof attitude of their own value as wives that they turn their nose at many of the guys who come around. At least, that's what I see at conferences. They seems to be very cozy and friendly with the people in their circles including all of the Noors, but Anna and Elizabeth seem to think they're too good for David Noor. My interactions with him are very limited, but he strikes me as very genuine, sincere, and overall the kind of person you could spend a lot of time with and only like him more and more. He's like Geoff Botkin theologically and intellectually, but he's a very warm, caring person. He is like Benjamin in a lot of ways. But Geoff has told the girls that if they don't have a 'special high regard' for someone, that it's probably not a good match. He leaves it almost entirely up to the girls, contrary to what it looks like from the outside. This astounded me.

Anna is a bit more relaxed on a personal level, and isn't looking for somebody super driven, but she is very image conscious. She is responsible for the sudden rise in fashion quality of herself, Elizabeth, and several other women in the VF circles like Lourdes. Elizabeth is much less image conscious, but is extremely driven and snooty. Snooty might just be a cover for afraid or a low self image. From what I've seen and what others have told me, she is going to need somebody who is more like Doug Phillips in personality and tone. High energy, lots of show - A trophy leader. Elizabeth is constantly being reigned in by Anna.

They're both great people though, and their friendships with those close to them are genuine. In spite of this, they injure their public persona by being very aloof and guarded, as though their family has some great treasure to conceal. Though it was never said, I've picked up the feeling that this caused a little rift between Geoff and Doug. Not a fight, not even an argument, just a nervous tension that left Geoff feeling like he was playing second fiddle.

[theologygeek]

Oh brother. Now I've heard everything.

[Guest Anonymous]

Were you a Vision Forum intern? How many interns are assigned to keep an eye on this forum?

Does Doug Phillips have any idea how gay he comes off with all of his talk about sweaty manly romps?

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Doug Phillips, an intellectual and academic? You must be kidding! :lol:

At least in personality. Despite what others may feel about his theological or worldview conclusions, his historical knowledge is incredible. I'm a very questioning and challenging person- a real rebel child- so I always try to poke holes in what people believe, especially as I get close to them. This is true even when I agree with and love the people I get close to. Doug Phillips is the one guy who the closer I get, the more impressed I am, even if I find more idiosyncrasies.

Doug can recite for hours historical facts, and when I look them up to confirm them, he's accurate to the smallest of degrees. I've also been present when he had discussions with contrary historians or scientists in the top of their fields. His conclusions may be wonky by your standards (or mine) but he has actually put in the hours of reading and research before opening his mouth. He's a very intelligent man, even if you feel it's being put to waste. There's a reason so many people look up to him.

[twin2]

Did you go on the refreshingly vigorous, sometimes sweaty, sometimes wet manly romp foray into a mysterious and unusual world with Doug?

Sorry, I can't help myself, when it comes to Capt. Dougie, I can't help but be snarky.

[Guest Anonymous]

At least in personality. Despite what others may feel about his theological or worldview conclusions, his historical knowledge is incredible. I'm a very questioning and challenging person- a real rebel child- so I always try to poke holes in what people believe, especially as I get close to them. This is true even when I agree with and love the people I get close to. Doug Phillips is the one guy who the closer I get, the more impressed I am, even if I find more idiosyncrasies.

Doug can recite for hours historical facts, and when I look them up to confirm them, he's accurate to the smallest of degrees. I've also been present when he had discussions with contrary historians or scientists in the top of their fields. His conclusions may be wonky by your standards (or mine) but he has actually put in the hours of reading and research before opening his mouth. He's a very intelligent man, even if you feel it's being put to waste. There's a reason so many people look up to him.

Aww. You have a crush on Doug. That's so cute!

[treemom]

Why do they hate women?

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Reformed, what does that mean? You left the cult?

And yea one other question, oral sex, permitted or not?

Reformed is a branch of theology which, while taking many different forms of lifestyle today, are all grounded in dominantly in the Doctrines of Grace established by John Calvin. It refers to protestant theology forged during the era of The Reformation. This describes Vision Forum, where ATI takes a slightly different theological approach. ATI focuses more on external practices, Vision Forum focuses more on intellectual/spiritual practices/feelings.

LMAO@ the oral sex question. That's more on a couple by couple basis. Nobody talks about their sex lives that I've been around in these communities, but I know some couples love sex and some despise it. For some of them, I don't think anything is off limits as long as it's between husband and wife, and I do mean anything!

[Guest Anonymous]

Reformed is a branch of theology which, while taking many different forms of lifestyle today, are all grounded in dominantly in the Doctrines of Grace established by John Calvin. It refers to protestant theology forged during the era of The Reformation. This describes Vision Forum, where ATI takes a slightly different theological approach. ATI focuses more on external practices, Vision Forum focuses more on intellectual/spiritual practices/feelings.

Actually thats why I asked, I was wondering if you had stopped drinking the kool aid.

So what about oral sex?

[tabitha2]

Do you know any thing of the Coghlans,Kim and Perry, of Life In a Shoe? And is having so many daughters in row like they do-7-looked on as something of a pity,bad luck,etc?

[Marian the Librarian]

Geoff Botkin: a control freak to the point of being mentally ill? Victoria Botkin: depressed??

Your thoughts, please.

[KnightInShiningAmore]

Where does all the money come from? When I see VF catalogues, videos, photography equipment, European trips, weddings etc etc - it just makes me wonder where all that cash comes from. I have a hard time believing that it just comes from the sale of books and CDs. Thanks.

This is the negative side of Vision Forum. They are always hanging on by a thread and begging for more money from high end donors. They try to be classy about it, and they don't ever directly request money from their 'flock', but they do raise an awful lot of money from a few elite money men who've had conversion experiences and like the message. Doug is a great salesman. He could sell a cat to a mouse, and he manages to raise money in the nick of time for a lot of his projects. Other projects he manages to convince families to start 'businesses' of design or photography to provide services, then he asks for favors. He's a compelling guy, and it gets him a long way.

People are getting tired though, and pocketbooks are getting thin. He's going to have a real challenge to keep things running for the next several years. I know they have very few major events planned for the next few years, and from what I've seen, even the events they are planning have been downsized. If I know Doug, he'll start some different projects that require less funding and make a bigger media splash, since he has so many devoted followers who are incredibly good at media production, and it'll keep the appearances of a more active, exotic, growing company, even though it's getting smaller and generating less product.

[treemom]

Is voddile bahcaum their token black guy? Will any of the other royalty actually allow their sons to marry jasmine?

[liltwinstar]

Oh brother. Now I've heard everything.

I actually do kind of believe this. I know when we went to Reformed/Reconstructionst/Rushdoony-reading church there was lots and lots and LOTS of talk. In fact, one of the ways my parents dealt with my sister and I was to sit us down and have long conversations (sometimes hours long) explaining why we were wrong and they were right. The conversations didn't end until we were in tears, promising to do better.

[theologygeek]

Aww. You have a crush on Doug. That's so cute!

Ha, you beat me to it.