Kendra Tierney: A Martyr for Catholicism All Year

[anachronistic]

So she writes a blog post about how not everyone should bring a jello salad to a potluck, as a very terrible metaphor for why she won’t say Black Lives Matter. Then her next Instagram post is about - literally - some sort of jello salad. I know that she didn’t intend it to be such an odd juxtaposition but it is. 

She is just. so. weird. I’m a very weird person, I love some very weird people, but she takes the weirdness and the obsession with saints to whole new levels. A jello model of Jesus’s heart? Like transubstantiation isn’t weird enough to begin with? 
 

Nevermind coming out as liberal, or atheist, or whatever, her kids can’t come out as vegetarians because if they continued to take communion as vegetarians, it’d mean that they didn’t fully buy the literal-blood-of-Jesus bit. And if they refused communion on those grounds they’d be breaking a central tenet of their religion. 

[Marmion]

1 hour ago, anachronistic said:

Nevermind coming out as liberal, or atheist, or whatever, her kids can’t come out as vegetarians because if they continued to take communion as vegetarians, it’d mean that they didn’t fully buy the literal-blood-of-Jesus bit. And if they refused communion on those grounds they’d be breaking a central tenet of their religion.

First of all , vegetarianism has a long time honored history within Catholicism .  { https://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201707/some-catholics-vegetarian-diet-goes-hand-hand-faith-31075 ,  https://catholicveg.blogspot.com } Second of all , does Kendra Tierney actually consider herself , and all other communicants , to be cannibals ?   I had understood that Catholics believe that the Eucharist is in metaphysical essence the body and blood of Christ , not necessarily in physical substance . 

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/are-catholics-cannibals 

[anachronistic]

Marmion, I’m sorry if I offended you. I didn’t know that about Catholicism. As a very literal person whenever I’ve asked Catholics if the communion counts as meat they won’t answer me so I assumed the answer was yes. I looked up the definition of metaphysical and I don’t know if I quite get it but I think it means abstract, like an idea. But if it’s just an idea then why do people get upset about missing communion? 

[wendy-sparkles]

I'm Catholic and Vegetarian, and from a long line of vegetarian catholics (Grandmother, great-grandparents), and to the best of my understanding it doesn't conflict - in the same way that no matter how devoutly one believes in transubstantiation, one is not turning oneself in at the police station as a cannibal.

My guess is people you are asking about whether communion wafers are meat are finding the question glib and choosing not to respond for that reason, or feel as lay people they lack the necessary training in apologetics to respond appropriately.

Furthermore, there are specific times in catholicism where you are required or choose to abstain from meat (fasting) and taking communion is not considered to conflict with this as far as I know.

[Marmion]

9 hours ago, anachronistic said:

Marmion, I’m sorry if I offended you. I didn’t know that about Catholicism. As a very literal person whenever I’ve asked Catholics if the communion counts as meat they won’t answer me so I assumed the answer was yes. I looked up the definition of metaphysical and I don’t know if I quite get it but I think it means abstract, like an idea. But if it’s just an idea then why do people get upset about missing communion? 

No offense taken .  Really I have no cause for offense , as I myself am not a Catholic .  I have had , and to an extent do have friends whom are Catholic ; but I myself am not .  I was just responding to the points made by Kendra Tierney . 

[katilac]

On 6/21/2020 at 7:23 PM, Marmion said:

First of all , vegetarianism has a long time honored history within Catholicism .  { https://www.uscatholic.org/articles/201707/some-catholics-vegetarian-diet-goes-hand-hand-faith-31075 ,  https://catholicveg.blogspot.com } Second of all , does Kendra Tierney actually consider herself , and all other communicants , to be cannibals ?   I had understood that Catholics believe that the Eucharist is in metaphysical essence the body and blood of Christ , not necessarily in physical substance . 

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/are-catholics-cannibals 

Lapsed cradle Catholic here. Catholics do not, of course, consider themselves cannibals, but they do consider the eucharist to be the actual body of Christ. Weird, huh? That's what makes Catholic communion different: is it the actual physical presence of Jesus. It's not a symbol. It's not metaphysical. It is absolutely 'physical substance.'  This is why they always make announcements at weddings and funerals, to remind non-Catholic guests to please not take communion (bc they consider it a symbol). 

I mean, the reasons listed at your link have nothing to do with it being symbolic or metaphysical. No, it's not cannibalism because we didn't kill Jesus, and cannibals kill their, um, dinner. It's not cannibalism because we consume all of Jesus, we don't leave the bones and sinews behind (weirdest reason ever). 

Transubstantiation means that the host is transformed into the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and only the appearance bread and wine remains. 

So, Catholics absolutely do believe that Jesus is physically present in the eucharist. It is a central doctrine of the church and one of the necessary sacraments. He is just as physically present as if he were standing there in front of you. 

 

 

[Petronella]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

No, it's not cannibalism because we didn't kill Jesus, and cannibals kill their, um, dinner.

I have never heard the definition of cannibalism limited in this way. It doesn’t sound right to me.

[Melissa1977]

On 6/22/2020 at 2:27 PM, anachronistic said:

Marmion, I’m sorry if I offended you. I didn’t know that about Catholicism. As a very literal person whenever I’ve asked Catholics if the communion counts as meat they won’t answer me so I assumed the answer was yes. I looked up the definition of metaphysical and I don’t know if I quite get it but I think it means abstract, like an idea. But if it’s just an idea then why do people get upset about missing communion? 

Not a single Catholic think communion is eating meat or eating the physical body of Christ: it is bread and it's a symbol. I don't know what Kendra is inventing, but she's wrong and absurd.

6 hours ago, katilac said:

Lapsed cradle Catholic here. Catholics do not, of course, consider themselves cannibals, but they do consider the eucharist to be the actual body of Christ. Weird, huh? That's what makes Catholic communion different: is it the actual physical presence of Jesus. It's not a symbol. It's not metaphysical. It is absolutely 'physical substance.'  This is why they always make announcements at weddings and funerals, to remind non-Catholic guests to please not take communion (bc they consider it a symbol

Really? I come from a Catholic background and have never ever heard that. 

[Four is Enough]

@Melissa1977, you say you are from a Catholic Background... If you had any formation, whether it was Catholic school, CCD, Sunday school, or even Sunday Mass... you should have gotten that memo. The Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. It is not a symbol. It is Christ.. 

The "symbol" versus the "Real Presence" is one of the fundamental reasons for the schisms in the Church... and the Reformation.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

It's the Transubstantiation vs. Consubstantiation argument.

Catholics believe in Transubstantiation -- the bread and wine become (transform as it were) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The real presence of Christ.

Protestants adhere to Consubstantiation -- bread and wine as a symbols of the Body and the Blood.

And then there are the Protestants who argue that is was never wine at the wedding, but unfermented grape juice so for them it's bread and Welch's 

[hoipolloi]

Just leaving this here:

 

[katilac]

10 hours ago, Petronella said:

I have never heard the definition of cannibalism limited in this way. It doesn’t sound right to me.

No, it's really reaching, lol. To be clear, that's from a posted link, not my personal thought. 

5 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Not a single Catholic think communion is eating meat or eating the physical body of Christ: it is bread and it's a symbol. I don't know what Kendra is inventing, but she's wrong and absurd.

Really? I come from a Catholic background and have never ever heard that. 

It is absolutely not a symbol in the Catholic church; that is a Protestant belief.  It is the physical presence of Christ. The Catholic Church is very clear on this.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

@Melissa1977, you say you are from a Catholic Background... If you had any formation, whether it was Catholic school, CCD, Sunday school, or even Sunday Mass... you should have gotten that memo. The Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. It is not a symbol. It is Christ.. 

The "symbol" versus the "Real Presence" is one of the fundamental reasons for the schisms in the Church... and the Reformation.

I sent all my kids through CCD 1st through 8th grade and two of them had no idea what an apostle was as recently as last year.

Not everyone with Catholic upbringing remembers even the big point.

(I agree on the points though - it is the big difference between Catholics and Protestants.)

[llucie]

8 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Not a single Catholic think communion is eating meat or eating the physical body of Christ: it is bread and it's a symbol. I don't know what Kendra is inventing, but she's wrong and absurd.

Really? I come from a Catholic background and have never ever heard that. 

I was always told it was a symbol too. Maybe its a Spain thing.

[Marmion]

4 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

It's the Transubstantiation vs. Consubstantiation argument.

Catholics believe in Transubstantiation -- the bread and wine become (transform as it were) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The real presence of Christ.

Protestants adhere to Consubstantiation -- bread and wine as a symbols of the Body and the Blood.

And then there are the Protestants who argue that is was never wine at the wedding, but unfermented grape juice so for them it's bread and Welch's 

I hope that this will summary will help clear things up .  

Spoiler

 

And yes , this was why those , such as my late great-great aunt , when she was in the nursing home ,  whom are Protestant have been denied Communion , by visiting Catholic priests , however much they may have wanted to partake .  

Spoiler

 

 

16 minutes ago, llucie said:

I was always told it was a symbol too. Maybe its a Spain thing.

As the first mentioned video , cited above , points out , this is actually the Zwinglian view of Communion .  { http://www.christianitydaily.com/articles/8135/20160526/zwinglis-view-lords-supper-luthers-criticism.htm  ,  https://historylearning.com/german-reformation/beliefs-zwingli/  } 

[llucie]

28 minutes ago, Marmion said:

I hope that this will summary will help clear things up .  

  Reveal hidden contents

 

And yes , this was why those , such as my late great-great aunt , when she was in the nursing home ,  whom are Protestant have been denied Communion , by visiting Catholic priests , however much they may have wanted to partake .  

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

As the first mentioned video , cited above , points out , this is actually the Zwinglian view of Communion .  { http://www.christianitydaily.com/articles/8135/20160526/zwinglis-view-lords-supper-luthers-criticism.htm  ,  https://historylearning.com/german-reformation/beliefs-zwingli/  } 

You are not allowed to take the wafle if you didnt have your first communion, thats why they denied it to your protestant great-great-aunt. Even bapticed people cant take it until after their first communion.

As someone who attended sunday catholic school all my childhood (i am even confirmed, thats the next rite after first communion, you do it in your teens usually) plus a private  school run by nuns i can asure you that we dont believe that. I even distintly remember the sunday school teacher reprimanding a boy because he joked about that, and she was like its just a symbol, stop being dumb. We were told basically all the bible was symbolic. Like Adam and Eve? just symbolic, actually the big bang happened, etc.

Kendra is Opus Dei, so you cant really say her beliefs are mainstream, they are basically a cult, so i am not surprised if she believes that. Radical people usually take things very literally.

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by llucie
spelling

[Marmion]

21 minutes ago, llucie said:

You are not allowed to take the wafle if you didnt have your first communion, thats why they denied it to your protestant great-great-aunt. Even bapticed people cant take it until after their first communion.

As someone who attended sunday catholic school all my childhood (i am even confirmed, thats the next rite after first communion, you do it in your teens usually) plus a private  school run by nuns i can asure you that we dont believe that. I even distintly remember the sunday school teacher reprimanding a boy because he joked about that, and she was like its just a symbol, stop being dumb. We were told basically all the bible was symbolic. Like Adam and Eve? just symbolic, actually the big bang happened, etc.

Kendra is Opus Dei, so you cant really say her beliefs are mainstream, they are basically a cult, so i am not surprised if she believes that. Radical people usually take things very literally.

 

What of this then ?  

Quote

The Church draws her life from the Eucharist. This truth does not simply express a daily experience of faith, but recapitulates the heart of the mystery of the Church. In a variety of ways she joyfully experiences the constant fulfilment of the promise: “Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Mt 28:20), but in the Holy Eucharist, through the changing of bread and wine into the body and blood of the Lord, she rejoices in this presence with unique intensity....  15. The sacramental re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice, crowned by the resurrection, in the Mass involves a most special presence which – in the words of Paul VI – “is called 'real' not as a way of excluding all other types of presence as if they were 'not real', but because it is a presence in the fullest sense: a substantial presence whereby Christ, the God-Man, is wholly and entirely present”.22 This sets forth once more the perennially valid teaching of the Council of Trent: “the consecration of the bread and wine effects the change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord, and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. And the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called this change transubstantiation”.23 Truly the Eucharist is a mysterium fidei, a mystery which surpasses our understanding and can only be received in faith, as is often brought out in the catechesis of the Church Fathers regarding this divine sacrament: “Do not see – Saint Cyril of Jerusalem exhorts – in the bread and wine merely natural elements, because the Lord has expressly said that they are his body and his blood: faith assures you of this, though your senses suggest otherwise” . 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html  

[princessmahina]

6 hours ago, llucie said:

You are not allowed to take the wafle if you didnt have your first communion, thats why they denied it to your protestant great-great-aunt. Even bapticed people cant take it until after their first communion.

As someone who attended sunday catholic school all my childhood (i am even confirmed, thats the next rite after first communion, you do it in your teens usually) plus a private  school run by nuns i can asure you that we dont believe that. I even distintly remember the sunday school teacher reprimanding a boy because he joked about that, and she was like its just a symbol, stop being dumb. We were told basically all the bible was symbolic. Like Adam and Eve? just symbolic, actually the big bang happened, etc.

Kendra is Opus Dei, so you cant really say her beliefs are mainstream, they are basically a cult, so i am not surprised if she believes that. Radical people usually take things very literally.

 

Your teacher was wrong. Catholics are 100% supposed to believe in transubstantiation. It is not a regional belief. it is not a specifically Opus Dei belief. It is a firm tenet of the Catholic faith and one of the major sources of division between Catholics and Protestants. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by princessmahina

[Petronella]

1 hour ago, princessmahina said:

Your teacher was wrong. Catholics are 100% supposed to believe in transubstantiation. It is not a regional belief. it is not a specifically Opus Dei belief. It is a firm tenet of the Catholic faith and one of the major sources of division between Catholics and Protestants. 

There’s room for there to be “official Catholic doctrine” and people’s different lived experiences of it.

[Melissa1977]

8 hours ago, princessmahina said:

Your teacher was wrong. Catholics are 100% supposed to believe in transubstantiation. It is not a regional belief. it is not a specifically Opus Dei belief. It is a firm tenet of the Catholic faith and one of the major sources of division between Catholics and Protestants. 

Wow, thousands of Spanish Catholics must be wrong, then. It's been seen as a symbol for decades. In the 80's (not sure about before) we were teached by priests that Bible and transubtantiation were symbolic. 

I edit to add that a huge majority of Spanish Catholics don't attend church regularly. Just on big holidays, weddings etc. I think seeing things as symbols make it easy to live their faith and many priests are ok with that and some seem to agree with the symbolic ideas.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Melissa1977
Clarify

[llucie]

9 hours ago, princessmahina said:

Your teacher was wrong. Catholics are 100% supposed to believe in transubstantiation. It is not a regional belief. it is not a specifically Opus Dei belief. It is a firm tenet of the Catholic faith and one of the major sources of division between Catholics and Protestants. 

It was not just one teacher. I had diferent teachers over the years, both in school, where i had religion as a subject every year, plus sunday school, that its mandatory for 2 years so you can take your first communion, plus another year that i did to ger the Confirmation.  Linking some website saying otherwise its not going to change my actual experience on this topic, and clearly does not represent reality nowadays, at least for me.

To be fair its been years since i have been to church except for weddings, but i doubt they have sudenly changed so much. If any they probably have loosened up in other topics too. I remember back when i was in sunday school girls being "altar boys" was starting to become a thing, and i believe nowadays its not that uncommon.

Edited June 24, 2020 by llucie
spelling

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

Wow, thousands of Spanish Catholics must be wrong, then. It's been seen as a symbol for decades. In the 80's (not sure about before) we were teached by priests that Bible and transubtantiation were symbolic. 

I edit to add that a huge majority of Spanish Catholics don't attend church regularly. Just on big holidays, weddings etc. I think seeing things as symbols make it easy to live their faith and many priests are ok with that and some seem to agree with the symbolic ideas.

I have never been to Spain and can only speak to Catholicism in the US, but I'm curious as to how the RCC in Spain handles disposition of the eucharist?

Here it cannot be thrown out in the trash once it's been sanctified, as it could if it were merely a symbol.  Do they just toss it out there or is disposition handled as if it's sacred?

8 hours ago, Petronella said:

There’s room for there to be “official Catholic doctrine” and people’s different lived experiences of it.

There are definitely different lived experiences of Catholicism, but not official Catholic doctrine.  

[SassyPants]

I was a cradle RC. I went to RC schools from kindergarten through university graduation. What I learned along the way is that the RC is not flexible, the rules are the rules, and they are hard for a reason. Looking around, I could see that most, if not nearly all participants, were not fully adhering to the tenets. Why? It seems the tenets are damn near incongruent with life in the real world. This was the point I exited ( I was around 50).  After a 10 year break from religion and much soul searching, I joined a Unitarian Fellowship which more aligns with my beliefs , and is more focused on actions than stated creed. I’d say about 70% of the members in my UUF are former RCs.  Yes, in RC theology, during the Eucharist, bread and wine are consecrated and turned into body and blood. 

[Alisamer]

39 minutes ago, llucie said:

It was not just one teacher. I had diferent teachers over the years, both in school, where i had religion as a subject every year, plus sunday school, that its mandatory for 2 years so you can take your first communion, plus another year that i did to ger the Confirmation.  Linking some website saying otherwise its not going to change my actual experience on this topic, and clearly does not represent reality nowadays, at least for me.

Uh, wasn't that the official Vatican website, though? Like basically the Pope's own homepage?

I'm Baptist, so I've got no dog in this fight. We've got grape juice and tasty little homemade squares that are almost a cookie, and to us it's a symbol just like we think it was when Jesus first handed the stuff out at dinner.

But I'm gonna take the Pope's word on this transubstantiation thing. 

[Melissa1977]

39 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

have never been to Spain and can only speak to Catholicism in the US, but I'm curious as to how the RCC in Spain handles disposition of the eucharist?

Here it cannot be thrown out in the trash once it's been sanctified, as it could if it were merely a symbol.  Do they just toss it out there or is disposition handled as if it's sacred?

It is not thrown, as a matter of respect. But still nobody thinks it is a real body and wine is real blood. Again, it was teached by a priest when I was at school in the 80's.  I'm not a beliver but my grandparents were believers and no way you could convince them they were eating the real body of Jesus. 

 Do people in your church think the priest is literally drinking blood? Because it sounds very strange to me. 

8 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

But I'm gonna take the Pope's word on this transubstantiation thing

If you could ask him, I bet his answer would be: yes it's Jesus body, but no you're not eating real meat. 

Lots of Catholics, including saints and queens, did not eat meat, as a sacrifice, but could take the communion and they would never consider they are eating meat nor a body. Because the reality of that body is a feeling. Feeling is real, body/meat/protein are not.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Melissa1977
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