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Kendra Tierney: A Martyr for Catholicism All Year


anachronistic

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4 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Pope Francis' statement today has no doubt caused more than few conservative RC heads to explode, including those in my family.

I went on Facebook just to see this happen, but it doesn't seem like word has gotten around yet. 

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I imagine that such Traditionalists will just see this as being yet another example of  him being" Frank the hippie pope " .    

 

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But does the church recognize civil unions? Not to my knowledge. So separate but not equal in the eyes of the church? It seems PF is turfing the responsibility to the civil legal eagles. Yes, I agree that LGBTQ folks should be able to legally marry and not be looked down upon by the RCC.

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most denominations, even ones that can often be much more affirming, are still very much struggling to get the consensus necessary on gay marriage, eg the Anglicans, Presbyterians (in my city, probably the most affirming church is one of the Presbyterian ones, but I know that it can be very different elsewhere). There's just too much of a spectrum, especially where you have a broad geographic and demographic spread. I think the Methodists have just agreed to split over the issue? Or are about to split? Which just isn't an option as a Catholic.

I don't think gay marriage will ever be incorporated into Catholic Church teachings, in my lifetime at least, due to issues like Theology of the Body*. The most hope I have is that civil unions/ marriages will be recognised in some form and able to be blessed, which I think is roughly where much/some? of the Anglican communion is, and that being gay would be removed as a barrier for ordination.  I would consider myself a pretty devout Roman Catholic, and if any gay friends or family members wanted to  become Christians, I would probably suggest the Anglicans first, where I think there is more hope :(

*Genuinely when I heard the term Theology of the Body I was so excited. I thought Theology of hands or why we have vestigial body parts would be so interesting! But instead it was just boring sex stuff. Boo.

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2 hours ago, wendy-sparkles said:

which I think is roughly where much/some? of the Anglican communion is, and that being gay would be removed as a barrier for ordination.  I would consider myself a pretty devout Roman Catholic, and if any gay friends or family members wanted to  become Christians, I would probably suggest the Anglicans first, where I think there is more hope

Depends on where they live. If they are here in the US, just become an Episcopalian like myself. We’re so inclusive I think fundies consider us The Dark Evil Empire of his most high Liberal Lord Lucifer or some crap.

If the UK? Yeah, good bet. They are about to all start voting on it, feels like? One good step away from removing the barrier.

Anglican churches in Africa or Australia are supa Conservative, and they have no hope it honestly feels like? Oh, and those fake ass “Continuing Anglican” churches are obviously anti-gay solidly. That’s literally their entire reason for existing.

This is my understanding of it at least.

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3 hours ago, THERetroGamerNY said:

Depends on where they live. If they are here in the US, just become an Episcopalian like myself. We’re so inclusive I think fundies consider us The Dark Evil Empire of his most high Liberal Lord Lucifer or some crap.

If the UK? Yeah, good bet. They are about to all start voting on it, feels like? One good step away from removing the barrier.

Anglican churches in Africa or Australia are supa Conservative, and they have no hope it honestly feels like? Oh, and those fake ass “Continuing Anglican” churches are obviously anti-gay solidly. That’s literally their entire reason for existing.

This is my understanding of it at least.

The Anglican Church in the UK is not one unit. The Church of England, the Church in Wales, the Scottish Episcopal Church (and presumably whatever they have in NI, only part of the UK where I haven’t lived so I’m not sure) are all separate. 
 

In Scotland the Episcopal Church started allowing same sex marriage a few years ago, a few congregations have left because of it.

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6 hours ago, Topaz said:

The Anglican Church in the UK is not one unit. The Church of England, the Church in Wales, the Scottish Episcopal Church (and presumably whatever they have in NI, only part of the UK where I haven’t lived so I’m not sure) are all separate. 
 

In Scotland the Episcopal Church started allowing same sex marriage a few years ago, a few congregations have left because of it.

The whole of ireland has 'The church of Ireland' which is slowly slowly discerning whether to celebrate same sex marriages. 

My partner used to sing in a church of ireland church and when were discussing marriage, she quite genuinly thought about asking various church of ireland vicars she knows and I had to point out that that wasn't going to be possible ?. She always said the clergy was as gay as they come.

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On 10/22/2020 at 9:38 AM, SassyPants said:

But does the church recognize civil unions? Not to my knowledge. So separate but not equal in the eyes of the church? It seems PF is turfing the responsibility to the civil legal eagles. Yes, I agree that LGBTQ folks should be able to legally marry and not be looked down upon by the RCC.

Yet we should not underestimate what a huge, huge statement this is - a big thing with older and more fundamentalist Catholics is not attending weddings for 'invalid' marriages, which could simply mean a Catholic not getting married in the Catholic church. It's not doctrine, but often taken as a serious decision to be made: will attendance give the appearance of approval, or cause scandal? (not what we think of as scandal; for Catholics, it means something more like leading others into sin). 

So, for the Pope to say that LBGTQ should have access to civil unions? That is an astonishing statement. 

It's not enough, but it really is a big deal. They aren't going to do a sudden about-face, it's going to take a lot of gradual changes in attitudes and expectations. This is big. 

Edited by katilac
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59 minutes ago, katilac said:

Yet we should not underestimate what a huge, huge statement this is - a big thing with older and more fundamentalist Catholics is not attending weddings for 'invalid' marriages, which could simply mean a Catholic not getting married in the Catholic church. It's not doctrine, but often taken as a serious decision to be made: will attendance give the appearance of approval, or cause scandal? (not what we think of as scandal; for Catholics, it means something more like leading others into sin). 

So, for the Pope to say that LBGTQ should have access to civil unions? That is an astonishing statement. 

It's not enough, but it really is a big deal. They aren't going to do a sudden about-face, it's going to take a lot of gradual changes in attitudes and expectations. This is big. 

I hope so!

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Twitter says her account was suspended for rule violation - at least, I assume it’s her account, it’s Kendra Tierney and how many can there be - and I’m nosy as heck and I want to know why.

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5 hours ago, anachronistic said:

Twitter says her account was suspended for rule violation - at least, I assume it’s her account, it’s Kendra Tierney and how many can there be - and I’m nosy as heck and I want to know why.

Yep, it's her account all right. Wonder if she was trying to peddle lies about COVID-19, Biden, or some Q-Anon shit.

Re: Amy Barrett's exceptionalism. Read this commentary to see how non-rockstar moms are treated by the University of Notre Dame:

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Like Amy Coney Barrett, I studied and taught at Notre Dame, and I became a mother during my time there. I, too, labored to “have it all,” a promising professional life and a growing family at this Catholic, life-affirming institution where I studied and worked for 12 years. But among the complicated reasons my husband and I have only one child looms large this fact: Notre Dame offered no maternity leave to graduate students when I was a doctoral student and an instructor there. Nor did they offer adequate health insurance. I was covered under my husband’s employer’s plan, which meant that giving birth to our daughter cost us $10,000 and branded me with a preexisting condition.

 

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18 hours ago, katilac said:

Yet we should not underestimate what a huge, huge statement this is - a big thing with older and more fundamentalist Catholics is not attending weddings for 'invalid' marriages, which could simply mean a Catholic not getting married in the Catholic church. It's not doctrine, but often taken as a serious decision to be made: will attendance give the appearance of approval, or cause scandal? (not what we think of as scandal; for Catholics, it means something more like leading others into sin). 

So, for the Pope to say that LBGTQ should have access to civil unions? That is an astonishing statement. 

It's not enough, but it really is a big deal. They aren't going to do a sudden about-face, it's going to take a lot of gradual changes in attitudes and expectations. This is big. 

About “older Catholics not attending weddings for ‘invalid’ marriages”: Back in my devout Catholic days, when I married my second husband, his church annulment hadn’t come through yet, so, on the advice of my priest, we had a civil ceremony (with the intention of having a religious one at the rectory later, which we did). My MIL actually told us that she had to ask “Father” for permission to attend our civil ceremony—this after my telling her my freaking priest (an expert on canon law) told us to have a civil ceremony. 

Edited by Hane
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On 10/23/2020 at 5:24 AM, Topaz said:

The Anglican Church in the UK is not one unit. The Church of England, the Church in Wales, the Scottish Episcopal Church (and presumably whatever they have in NI, only part of the UK where I haven’t lived so I’m not sure) are all separate. 
 

In Scotland the Episcopal Church started allowing same sex marriage a few years ago, a few congregations have left because of it.

In the United States the same sort of thing has happened , from what I have read  .   {  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Anglican_Communion  ,  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Communion#Same-sex_unions_and_LGBT_clergy  ,  

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/14/anglican-church-sanctions-against-liberal-us-church-same-sex-marriage  ,  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/seven-years-after-losing-its-fight-with-the-episcopal-denomination-the-falls-church-anglican-opens-its-new-home/2019/10/13/b351168c-eded-11e9-b648-76bcf86eb67e_story.html  }  

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Other than her Twitter account being suspended, she hasn't said anything on Facebook or Instagram about the latest from Pope Francis. Maybe that suspension has her being extra cautious about Facebook and Instagram at this point.

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Kathryn Joyce has published a good deep dive article on right wing Catholics and their role in tRump's re-election as well as the RCC:

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“You hear about these people who say, ‘I lost my mother to QAnon,’ but it’s happening in Catholic families as well,” says Lewis. “I’ve been one of the few Catholic moderates banging the drum, saying this is not a movement we can ignore. They are getting more and more radical, becoming more and more conspiratorial, and causing serious polarization. And if we don’t dial it back right now—” He stops. “I mean, I don’t even know if we can come back from it now.” Indeed, by the time Francis released a new encyclical earlier this month, sharply rebuking nationalism and appealing for universal fraternity, Catholic traditionalists could only respond that it would be “the ultimate Masonic document,” and that there was no unity they could have with him. 

In 2017, the Italian Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica, which is authorized by the pope, published an article charging that conservative American Catholics were getting lost in polarization, joining conservative evangelicals in “an ecumenism of hate” to promote “an apocalyptic geopolitics” that thrives on fear and uses theology to justify belligerence. 

“Theirs is a prophetic formula: fight the threats to American Christian values and prepare for the imminent justice of an Armageddon, a final showdown between Good and Evil, between God and Satan. In this sense, every process (be it of peace, dialogue, etc.) collapses before the needs of the end, the final battle against the enemy,” wrote the authors, one of whom is a close associate of Pope Francis.

To Faggioli it was a stunning historical document, marking the drift of American Catholicism away from the global church. 

 

 

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That was an amazing article.
The Catholic church I grew up in (with parents who were a former priest and nun) was very much the church that the right wing and the Trumpists hate - concerned about immigrant, income inequality, education, racial tensions, and other places where people needed to be helped.
Running headfirst into that other right wing Catholic church as a young adult, and an adult, left me horrified and ashamed to be Catholic.
For all that Trump believes that the church is made up of people like Kendra, it’s not. And he knows it.
(Personally I think we’ll see a schism in the next ten years between the “love everybody” Catholics and “hate everybody” ones.)

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I grew up Catholic. I would say that the divide is not between young and old. I've known/know many older Catholics who were liberal and open-minded. One of our priests was supportive of the lesbian couple sitting in the row of the church.  My mom's current priest welcomed the LGBTQ community to mass. I could go on. 

I also have known too many young conservative Catholics. Their parents are conservative one-issue voters, who watch lots of Fox news and the other similar news channels.  Some of them are as Republican as the Duggar kids. 

I also think there is a huge divide between the white Catholic church particularly the deeply conservative ones in the midwest and the American Hispanic Catholic community. 

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2 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I would say that the divide is not between young and old.

Small sample size here but I'd agree. The most liberal Catholic I've met recently is a 90+ year old longtime friend of my parents. She has lived in a RC seniors' residence for some years now, goes to Mass every day, and but is as solidly Democrat as they come. When Mom & I visited her last year, she talked about how she & the residence's Democratic organization were planning out the work for this year's election.

Edited by hoipolloi
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  • 1 year later...

I’m reviving this thread because she’s come up again in discussions about Braggie Abbie.

(throws thread on beach, whacks it on the back, mouthfuls of disgusting communion wafers and holy water come out.)

Anyway not much has changed except that her business is *huge* now and it seems her husbands cancer is back - I’m not sure because I’m never on her Instagram enough to see the stories where she discusses it. I do feel bad for the kids though, your parent having cancer really sucks.

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3 hours ago, anachronistic said:

I’m reviving this thread because she’s come up again in discussions about Braggie Abbie.

(throws thread on beach, whacks it on the back, mouthfuls of disgusting communion wafers and holy water come out.)

Anyway not much has changed except that her business is *huge* now and it seems her husbands cancer is back - I’m not sure because I’m never on her Instagram enough to see the stories where she discusses it. I do feel bad for the kids though, your parent having cancer really sucks.

Thanks for jump-starting this thread. I had been wondering what was going on with Kendra.

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Just to remind people who perhaps are't knowledgeable on Catholic theology -- it's not as simple as just allowing same-sex marriage for the following reasons: 

- Marriage is a sacrament: divine Gift from God. To change it would mean admitting that for the entire history of the world, we were misinterpreting this gift from God, which arguably is one of the most important building blocks in society 

- The Catholic Theology of the Body is explicitly about male/female penetration & consummation of marriage. Sex MUST be procreative (theology of the body was also pretty progressive at one point, since it said men AND women should be receiving pleasure, that it was to be a mutual activity, etc. still arguably more equitable view than the modern evangelical church). God gave us sex for bonding, pleasure, and procreation. All sex must be open to the possibility of life. (you can abstain for a short time for hardships in life & you can use natural family planning as well if you pray about it together). The "gift" of sex for your future spouse and being totally sexually pure until you discover your bodies together is super important, but overall, the emphasis is still on male/female penetration and procreation. This is why birth control/ men finishing during oral/anal sex is not allowed for heterosexual couples. 

 

Obviously you probably have heard that the majority of Catholics use birth control and that a large number support LGBTQ marriage. That is wonderful, but technically it goes against literal pillars of Catholic theology. "Blessing" a same sex marriage or recognizing it as a union is probably as far the Catholic Church can go because they are basically saying "we respect you for doing something in the name of love family and happiness" but we don't see it as valid in OUR theological definition of the sacrament of marriage. 

Also, the Catholic Church as led by the Pope is THE Catholic Church. Any splits /schisms are just going to be viewed as another form of orthodoxy or protestantism, but not accepted by the Church. 

I always tell people who are super progressive Catholics that they should just join the progressive Lutherans or Anglicans since their beliefs match up. But it's a pretty futile recommendation since there's the whole Catholic guilt & tradition thing. 

 

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 months later...

A417D886-D866-4AC1-97C2-13681170A7F7.thumb.jpeg.47d97ec00994f305653e7ef8b5cfe1b7.jpeg
 

Sad update. He’s received his last rites and went on hospice yesterday.

I noticed she was quiet more after his surgery in March. 

Edited by luv2laugh
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It's very sad. Her husband passed away this afternoon. I feel so badly for her kids especially her very little ones. 

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