Anna Marie has Breast Cancer

[Giraffe]

37 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I can’t see the Maxwells giving any of their babies EBM from any donor, not even a SIL. These are people who are isolated and not the least bit inclusionary. These are people who consider the married brothers and their families outside their core family group. These folks are willfully uneducated and stubborn. 

I don’t see them accepting it from anyone except the in-laws but imo they’d willingly take it from one of the other wives. 

[PennySycamore]

40 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I can’t see the Maxwells giving any of their babies EBM from any donor, not even a SIL. These are people who are isolated and not the least bit inclusionary. These are people who consider the married brothers and their families outside their core family group. These folks are willfully uneducated and stubborn. 

Unfrotunately, I agree with you unless a doctor or nurse were to really suggest it to them.    It's slightly possible that they might consider Elissa wet-nursing since Moses's own mother wet-nursed him after Pharoah's daughter found him in the bulrushes.  Wet-nursing would not be so foreign a concept.  

[thesedays]

I've heard that milk from a cancerous breast tastes bad, and have heard of cancer being found this way - that the baby refused to nurse from it and this was why.

[FiveAcres]

20 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I live in the US and I don't have a real clue. I don't think anyone does! If you look up costs for a procedure, you'll see a huge range of anecdotal prices. I once looked up the costs of a colposcopy, and saw actual posted invoices from $180 up to a few thousand. 

I have no insurance this year, and had to get a prescription refilled that insurance had been paying for. At Walgreens, where I had been going, it was $158. 

The exact same thing from Walmart? $9 cash. 

 

When she prescribed Zonisamide for my miniature schnauzer, my vet advised me to call around before filling the prescription. I was shocked at the difference in prices. I finally settled on Costco pharmacy. (I am in the USA.)

[PennySycamore]

8 hours ago, thesedays said:

I've heard that milk from a cancerous breast tastes bad, and have heard of cancer being found this way - that the baby refused to nurse from it and this was why.

I'll check my resources (I have a few since I've been counseling nursing moms for over 35 years)  to see if there's any validity to that idea.  I know the milk can taste salty if mom has mastitis, but I'm not sure about this.

[Alisamer]

1 hour ago, FiveAcres said:

When she prescribed Zonisamide for my miniature schnauzer, my vet advised me to call around before filling the prescription. I was shocked at the difference in prices. I finally settled on Costco pharmacy. (I am in the USA.)

The GoodRX app is helpful as well - it did have a coupon to bring my prescription down from $158 to $43 at Walgreens (the pharmacists there recommended the app to get the coupon) but it also listed the price at several other places.

I'm not a huge fan of Walmart, but I'll go there to save $150. If I could afford $158 a month for the prescription I could've afforded insurance in the first place!

[PennySycamore]

I just checked two of my resources -Counseling the Nursing Mother (Swisher and Lauwers) and Breastfeeding Answers Made Simple (Auerbach) and got confirmed pretty much what @thesedays said.  One sided, sudden breast refusal may be a sign of breast diseases including breast cancer.  I don't know if it's because the milk tastes bad or the milk suddenly flows differently in that breast, but it should be looked at by a physician .  Unresolved mastitis (doesn't resolve in several weeks despite treatment) also needs to be examined by a physician.  It could be a symptom of inflammatory breast cancer which is pretty nasty.  The appearance of the breast changes rapidly from being red and inflamed to having peau d'orange skin.  

Some mothers who have surgery and irradiation of the breast only do breastfeed on the un-affected breast although there are probably times when the baby is weaned temporarily.  

[browngrl]

Some chemotherapy drugs can be transmitted in breast milk and with other chemo drugs it is not known whether the drugs are transmitted in breast milk or not so in general, breast feeding is contraindicated while a woman is undergoing chemo. However if the woman wishes to continue breast feeding AFTER chemo - this can be done but you  have to wait a few weeks for the drugs to clear and express and discard the milk in the interim 

I'm not sure what Anna will choose but some women find it psychologically helpful to at least have a short attempt at breast feeding (if this was the choice they would have made if they didn't have cancer). I suspect that Anna might want to at least try to breastfeed. I hope the Maxwell's don't give her a hassle if she has to/wants to switch to formula.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, browngrl said:

I suspect that Anna might want to at least try to breastfeed.

Someone upthread mentioned they often want to wait until milk is dried up before surgery, so if that's the case and the reason they are waiting then I hope she doesn't.  The baby will be fine as long as it's fed, delaying her treatment longer than necessary would be crazy imo.

[PennySycamore]

I was just reading about  I-131 (iodine-131) in BAMS.   Doctors want to mother to have completely weaned several weeks before therapy with i-131 starts because 40% of the radiation dose is deposited in active (ie, lactating) breast tissue and thus puts the mother at risk for later breast cancer.  It also may be some months before the baby could safely be put to the breast as the baby would have an increased risk of thyroid cancer. 

There may be a few people that argue that women can breastfeed through chemo, but most experts believe that is not possible.  The drugs are just too damn strong, as they need to be as cancer is a real bitch.  Better a live mom and no or interrupted breastfeeding than a dead mom who refused to wean.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

Better a live mom and no or interrupted breastfeeding than a dead mom who refused to wean.  

God, yes. I hope this isn't a question for them.

 

[nausicaa]

Have the Maxwells ever spoken about believing breastfeeding is the only correct way, as they have about no birth control and adult children living at home?

I can't recall. And I can't really see Teri breastfeeding all of her children exclusively. Especially since the first three were born before the "breast is best" campaign began and it seems it was much more common for middle class and upper middle class women to formula feed. 

[PennySycamore]

13 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

Have the Maxwells ever spoken about believing breastfeeding is the only correct way, as they have about no birth control and adult children living at home?

I can't recall. And I can't really see Teri breastfeeding all of her children exclusively. Especially since the first three were born before the "breast is best" campaign began and it seems it was much more common for middle class and upper middle class women to formula feed. 

How old are the oldest of Steve and Teri's kids?  The "Breast is Best"  thing has been going on for a good while.  La Leche League was founded in 1956 and several books on natural childbirth (Childbirth Without Fear by Dr Grantly Dick-Read and Husband-Coached Childbirth by Dr Robert A Bradley) were published in the 50s as well.   There was a gradual rise in mothers who wanted to nurse although the low point in mothers initiating breastfeeding was 1970 with a rapid rise in breastfeeding rates after that.  Depending on what part of the country you lived in, breastfeeding initiation rates might be pretty high and then again they might be pretty low.  I think the Mid-South was lowest. but the West Coast was high.  Were't the oldest born while the Maxwells were in Washington?  My firstborn will turn 40 this year and while many mothers did not breastfeed, there were lots of us who did.  We wanted to have natural births and were the pioneers of baby wearing.  While Teri might not have breastfed her kids,  I'm pretty sure we've seen reference to the daughters-in-law nursing their own babies.  Btw, when the Max offspring were born, it was NOT more common for middle and upper class women to formula feed, but for mothers of lower socioeconomic status to do so.  

[Bethy]

On 1/29/2020 at 11:56 PM, keepercjr said:

From what I read a few weeks ago, the cap is $250,000 per claim.  But you can claim every treatment as a different claim.  Basically as the bills roll in you submit them.  So it isn't a $250,000 cap for her cancer treatment as I had feared.  Have surgery, negotiate the rates, submit the claim.  Have a chemo treatment, get the bill, submit the claim, etc.  The surgeon could be one claim and the anesthesiologist another.  The hospital stay, another claim.  Still seems like a huge headache.

A huge headache yes, but at least it's not a straight $25K limit and then no more treatment. If that were the case she'd probably be looking at a lumpectomy and a "diet plan" of some sort (probably along the lines of "cancer can't exist without sugar to feed it") and then lots of prayer that she would live another year or two. Because with a limit of $25K I'm not sure even how much in-depth testing they could do to determine whether lymph nodes or anything else is involved.

I have a friend who battled breast cancer 20+ years ago, with a $1M lifetime limit on her insurance coverage. She said you hit $1M pretty quickly in a cancer battle. Knowing that plus hearing about the $25K scamaritan limit had me very worried for Anna Marie. I'm still worried, but slightly less so.

2 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

How old are the oldest of Steve and Teri's kids?  The "Breast is Best"  thing has been going on for a good while.  La Leche League was founded in 1956 and several books on natural childbirth (Childbirth Without Fear by Dr Grantly Dick-Read and Husband-Coached Childbirth by Dr Robert A Bradley) were published in the 50s as well.   There was a gradual rise in mothers who wanted to nurse although the low point in mothers initiating breastfeeding was 1970 with a rapid rise in breastfeeding rates after that.  Depending on what part of the country you lived in, breastfeeding initiation rates might be pretty high and then again they might be pretty low.  I think the Mid-South was lowest. but the West Coast was high.  Were't the oldest born while the Maxwells were in Washington?  My firstborn will turn 40 this year and while many mothers did not breastfeed, there were lots of us who did.  We wanted to have natural births and were the pioneers of baby wearing.  While Teri might not have breastfed her kids,  I'm pretty sure we've seen reference to the daughters-in-law nursing their own babies.  Btw, when the Max offspring were born, it was NOT more common for middle and upper class women to formula feed, but for mothers of lower socioeconomic status to do so.  

I have always thought Teri nursed for at least a while due to questions that were asked back in the exclusive frumper-wearing days when she said that for nursing, she had some jumpers with buttons on the shoulders and another with very large armholes (like down to the waist) that she could use for nursing.

I've always watched Anna Marie's shoulders in the past to gauge when babies were weaned. When she stopped wearing the button-shoulder frumpers it was a safe guess that the current baby had been weaned and another could be generated at any moment.

[nausicaa]

10 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

My firstborn will turn 40 this year and while many mothers did not breastfeed, there were lots of us who did.  We wanted to have natural births and were the pioneers of baby wearing.  While Teri might not have breastfed her kids,  I'm pretty sure we've seen reference to the daughters-in-law nursing their own babies.

I think Nathan is 41 or so? The daughters-in-law definitely breastfed. I just don't know when natural birth/breastfeeding caught on with religious conservatives. Also, Steve and Teri weren't quite as conservative when the first three were born (sent them to school, used birth control, I believe let Sarah wear pants?). 

The impression that I always got from my mother (who breastfed her three kids) was that breastfeeding in the late 70s/early 80s was still associated as a crunchy, hippy thing. She's said she felt as if there was less of a stigma of going on formula (which we all had to do after about six weeks because her milk always dried up early) and she never heard of  "mom shaming" about it. We were middle class in the Upper South, so don't know if that played into it. 

The stats I'm pulling up at least, it looks like 30% increasing to 50% of babies were breastfed from 1970 to 1982, compared to about 80% today. I can't find those percentages broken out by socio-economic class though. Btw, I didn't realize the Nestle boycott was in 1977; I thought that happened much later. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK235588/

Edited February 1, 2020 by nausicaa

[Melissa1977]

16 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

I was just reading about  I-131 (iodine-131) in BAMS.   Doctors want to mother to have completely weaned several weeks before therapy with i-131 starts because 40% of the radiation dose is deposited in active (ie, lactating) breast tissue and thus puts the mother at risk for later breast cancer.  It also may be some months before the baby could safely be put to the breast as the baby would have an increased risk of thyroid cancer. 

There may be a few people that argue that women can breastfeed through chemo, but most experts believe that is not possible.  The drugs are just too damn strong, as they need to be as cancer is a real bitch.  Better a live mom and no or interrupted breastfeeding than a dead mom who refused to wean.  

I know a woman who breastfeed while chemo (for womb cancer), but the baby was older than 1 year old. She was on strict medical control. She had to stop nursing the day of her chemo treatment and several days after (not sure how many days, maybe 1 or 2), had blood tests every.single.time and depending of the blood test results, could breastfeed again.

I found it too estresful and dangerous. She was obsessed about breastfeeding and I wonder if doctors were fine to help her, in order to research about it (I doubt many women would agree in participating in this kind of research, if it was the case). Also, she could have hide some information. So take my post with a grain of salt. 

I have breastfeed for a long time. I would be devastated if I couldn't. But I wouldn't put my children in risk with chemo drugs poisoning my milk.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Melissa1977
Clarify

[Melissa1977]

12 hours ago, nausicaa said:

it seems it was much more common for middle class and upper middle class women to formula feed

Are you sure? Once formula got so popular in the 50's and specially 60's, it was the middle and upper middle class moms who come back to breasfeed. 

Nowadays, I'm not sure there's a social difference. But as you usually need some information, support and a good work schedule to succesfully breasfeed, it may be difficult for poor mothers to do it.

[nausicaa]

Just now, Melissa1977 said:

Are you sure? Once formula got so popular in the 50's and specially 60's, it was the middle and upper middle class moms who come back to breasfeed. 

I'm definitely not sure. This is just the impression I've gotten from my mom and other women her age who had children then. It does look like it was more common for women in general to formula feed back then as compared to now, but I couldn't find any stats breaking it down by socioeconomic class. 

[kpmom]

According to Teri, in her blog post about her depression, it (depression) was the worst during the year she nursed a baby.

So, yes, it seems that she nursed all of her children for the first year, as her depression was present with the older three, as well as the younger five.

 

ETA:  According to some early reviews of MOTH on Amazon, they favored nursing on a schedule rather than on demand.  They got some push back on that, and have taken it out of revised editions.

Edited February 1, 2020 by kpmom

[Giraffe]

 

3 minutes ago, kpmom said:

According to Teri, in her blog post about her depression, it (depression) was the worst during the year she nursed a baby.

So, yes, it seems that she nursed all of her children for the first year, as her depression was present with the older three, as well as the younger five.

Wow, that’s seriously forked up! I’m hazarding a guess that Steve coerced her into breastfeeding!

[Charliemae]

On 1/30/2020 at 7:48 PM, PennySycamore said:

Unfrotunately, I agree with you unless a doctor or nurse were to really suggest it to them.    It's slightly possible that they might consider Elissa wet-nursing since Moses's own mother wet-nursed him after Pharoah's daughter found him in the bulrushes.  Wet-nursing would not be so foreign a concept.  

Why is that unfortunate? Formula is a perfectly valid choice.  In this case formula is probably best considering that breastmilk requires refrigeration and other safe handling, and we have no clue where or who is going to be caring for the baby. 

 

 

Everyone who thinks Elissa should just wet nurse need to think that one through. Is she supposed to just take the baby full time? Her supply won't adjust overnight.  Even pumping for a 2nd baby can be incredibly hard for someone.  Especially if she doesn't over produce naturally.  It might sound pretty on papper.  But again, this seems like a situation where formula is best. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

I'm definitely not sure. This is just the impression I've gotten from my mom and other women her age who had children then. It does look like it was more common for women in general to formula feed back then as compared to now, but I couldn't find any stats breaking it down by socioeconomic class. 

FWIW that was my impression as well, but no stats.

i was born late 60s into a fairly affluent family, along with a passel of cousins, and my mom was the only one she’s knew trying to breastfeed.  My father was absolutely horrified by the concept, but she tried anyway.  

 

[PennySycamore]

1 hour ago, Charliemae said:

Why is that unfortunate? Formula is a perfectly valid choice.  In this case formula is probably best considering that breastmilk requires refrigeration and other safe handling, and we have no clue where or who is going to be caring for the baby. 

 

 

Everyone who thinks Elissa should just wet nurse need to think that one through. Is she supposed to just take the baby full time? Her supply won't adjust overnight.  Even pumping for a 2nd baby can be incredibly hard for someone.  Especially if she doesn't over produce naturally.  It might sound pretty on papper.  But again, this seems like a situation where formula is best. 

The mothers in this case live close to one another and are related by marriage.  It would be fine if little S. Peter lived with Elissa for a while.  She wouldn't necessarily need to pump as she has two breasts.  She would need to down-regulate her supply when S. Peter went back home to Anna Marie.  Or she could pump and have Anna Marie's baby get that milk  in a bottle.  Expressed breastmilk does need to be refrigerated or frozen if it won't be used in a week, but refrigerated breastmilk is no bigger hassle and even may be a lesser one that preparing formula.  Ready-to-feed formula may not need to be sterilized, but powdered formula needs to be. Formula powder is not sterile. 

Wet-nursing is just an option as is use of donor milk.  Either option might appeal to Anna Marie, if she knows about them. She might feel better that at least the baby is getting breast milk even if she can't feed him.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

27 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

The mothers in this case live close to one another and are related by marriage.  It would be fine if little S. Peter lived with Elissa for a while.  She wouldn't necessarily need to pump as she has two breasts.  She would need to down-regulate her supply when S. Peter went back home to Anna Marie.  Or she could pump and have Anna Marie's baby get that milk  in a bottle.  Expressed breastmilk does need to be refrigerated or frozen if it won't be used in a week, but refrigerated breastmilk is no bigger hassle and even may be a lesser one that preparing formula.  Ready-to-feed formula may not need to be sterilized, but powdered formula needs to be. Formula powder is not sterile. 

Wet-nursing is just an option as is use of donor milk.  Either option might appeal to Anna Marie, if she knows about them. She might feel better that at least the baby is getting breast milk even if she can't feed him.  

I would hope, even if AM would prefer one of those options, that there is no pressure on either to comply.

Its not like the options are between starvation and life.  If they didn’t want to pump (not easy for all of us, I never could) or nurse that’s totallt valid and should be respected.  It’s a lot to ask of another person physically and emotionally.

[Melissa1977]

2 hours ago, Charliemae said:

Everyone who thinks Elissa should just wet nurse need to think that one through. Is she supposed to just take the baby full time? Her supply won't adjust overnight.  Even pumping for a 2nd baby can be incredibly hard for someone.  Especially if she doesn't over produce naturally.  It might sound pretty on papper.  But again, this seems like a situation where formula is best

My grandma nursed a neibourhood baby, while my dad was a baby, too. The mother was very ill. Someone took her the baby several times at day, but not at night (I don't know if they let the baby cry or gave him formula or cow milk...). It was not a rare situation back in the 40's. Elissa could probably do it, but there's a huge important point: her desire and ability to do it!!! It should never be an obligation. Plus Elissa has 3 little kids, and nursing 2 babies takes a lot of time!!!

45 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

Wet-nursing is just an option as is use of donor milk.  Either option might appeal to Anna Marie, if she knows about them. She might feel better that at least the baby is getting breast milk even if she can't feed him

I'm very into breastfeeding, but no way I'll put milk over all things. The baby should be living with his parents and siblings, not with an aunt who probably is overwhelmed with 3 little kids. Wet nursing sounds great, while it would be a huge effort for Elissa, but having Simon living with her sounds so hard! Simon has his own family and has to bond with them.