Josiah and Lauren 16: Just Another Young Fundie Couple

[samurai_sarah]

Carry on from here:

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Coconut Flan

[CarrotCake]

As reply on @Ivycoveredtowers message:

If the Swansons really want to push another Duggar in law I could see Jer and Lily in a few years.

 

Personally I would vote for James and Lily and naming their first son Harry.

[Bobology]

I don't believe at all that the alphabet naming theme is 'ruined' for Lauren. I think it gives her many, many opportunities to tell acquaintances and everyone in the future about the A baby in the beginning. Bella will never be the oldest or the first. She will always know she couldn't exist without Asa's death.

[neurogirl]

I feel like they chose this ABC theme after Bella's birth. Like Lauren was grieving, picked Asa, and then wanted to celebrate her Beautiful Miracle. And now after an A and a B, they might as well go for it. That's just the feeling I get. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

32 minutes ago, neurogirl said:

I feel like they chose this ABC theme after Bella's birth. Like Lauren was grieving, picked Asa, and then wanted to celebrate her Beautiful Miracle. And now after an A and a B, they might as well go for it. That's just the feeling I get. 

That’s how Josiah explained it on the show.

[DillyDally]

1 hour ago, Bobology said:

I don't believe at all that the alphabet naming theme is 'ruined' for Lauren. I think it gives her many, many opportunities to tell acquaintances and everyone in the future about the A baby in the beginning. Bella will never be the oldest or the first. She will always know she couldn't exist without Asa's death.

I agree, but I also think that in, say 20 or so years, she'll regret that decision (provided that they will have "enough" children for the ABC theme to be obvious).

[Cora Persephona]

I don't think that by choosing an ABC theme they expect to go all the way through to Z (which doesn't mean that I think they will use birth control, I don't think they will). In my mind the ABC theme has more to do with the following:

a) there are obviously a lot of letters between A an Z, so the there reaffirms the fact that they are open to as many babies as God wants, even an alphabet full.

b) Asa and any other future (possible) miscarriage will be shown as being just as important as their living children and it will be harder for people to forget that these miscarriages existed since there will be obvious gaps in the names of their live children.  To me is seems as just another way of pushing their pro forced birth agenda. 

c) I don't have a point C, but I was too committed to the theme. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, Cora Persephona said:

I don't think that by choosing an ABC theme they expect to go all the way through to Z (which doesn't mean that I think they will use birth control, I don't think they will). In my mind the ABC theme has more to do with the following:

a) there are obviously a lot of letters between A an Z, so the there reaffirms the fact that they are open to as many babies as God wants, even an alphabet full.

b) Asa and any other future (possible) miscarriage will be shown as being just as important as their living children and it will be harder for people to forget that these miscarriages existed since there will be obvious gaps in the names of their live children.  To me is seems as just another way of pushing their pro forced birth agenda. 

c) I don't have a point C, but I was too committed to the theme. 

I agree. I’m not wishing any miscarriages on her but it could happen a few times in the future since 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage. And then it is higher for some women due to medical issues. Therefore she could end up with living kids named Bella, Esther, Francis, and Isaiah. No one would have any clue they had an ABC theme until Lauren explained it. 

You can see the ABC theme in the Nathan Maxwell family because they didn’t abide by the rule with their daughter who died shortly after birth. 

[Georgiana]

I think the ABC theme feels good to Lauren now, but I worry about that because I'm not sure she's in a good place with her grief or processing it well.  An important part of healing can be being able to leave the pain behind in the past and pick it up only when we choose to.  Lauren is choosing something that will force her to continually remember her loss, which is still obviously very painful and traumatic for her.

That's a choice some people make and it works for them, but it's also a choice that can go both ways and be harmful.  I worry with Lauren that if she doesn't receive help and start processing her grief better, that this choice is something that will worsen her mental health and prevent her from ever truly moving past the trauma of the loss.  

I hope Lauren gets help, and if she does and learns how to take the memory forward but leave the pain in the past, I think this can become a nice way for her to remember all her pregnancies.  However, if she continues to carry the pain around the way she is doing now, I think this may prevent her from healing and put her on the fast track to a laundry room meltdown. 

[HideousGreenShirt]

After these latest Counting On episodes, I rewatched some of the courtship-wedding episodes for both JoKen and SiRen.

I know they're totally different people but I can't help comparing these two couples.

One of most interesting things I picked up on was actually Kendra and Lauren's relationships with their closest in age sisters.
Kendra and Lauren Caldwell appear to have a genuine connection and seem to love and enjoy each others' company. Their mom seems close to them both and the whole of the Caldwell family comes across as emotionally open and caring.
In contrast, Lauren and Lily Swanson do not appear to have any real emotional connection and seem to have just been paired together due to their ages in the family lineup. It may just be an awkward pairing as they have wildly different personalities. Lily seems very enthusiastic about every project she's been shown to be involved in and has expressed interest continuing her studies. Lauren has shown that she goes along with plans and then gives up or moves on as soon as they're finished or too difficult (college course, marriage retreat as examples).

The vibe I got from SiRen's episodes was that they were going through a checklist to become adults. Just copying what they'd seen previous couples do and going along with it.

Joe seems to deeply care for Kendra. His excitement over seeing her for their first looks on the wedding day is a good example. How interested he was over every detail of her dress and her hair and how emotional he was when he saw her walk down the aisle. He has repeatedly stated that you should treasure your wife and treat her above everyone and it always comes across as sincere. This is interesting to me as they usually all spout the same "God before everyone".

Josiah and Lauren's wedding day first looks is a stark contrast. Josiah literally just says "yes, you look nice. The dress is nice." Lauren even says how surprised she was that Josiah didn't cry and how strong he must be to not get emotional.
That reaction shows just how sheltered she is.
I know that some arranged marriages can result in deep, genuine love and a happy life, but I have strong doubts about these two.
Lauren's stroppiness and refusal to participate in the nest building, a task specifically about compromising is ironic and (as many posters have said) a glaring, TTH-sized red flag.
Josiah and Lauren both come across as control freaks who are determined to one up everybody in their circle.

[libgirl2]

JoKen seem to genuinely love each other and take delight and joy in being with each other. SiRen just don't. I know they are different people but they seem so forced and joyless. 

[Georgiana]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

JoKen seem to genuinely love each other and take delight and joy in being with each other. SiRen just don't. I know they are different people but they seem so forced and joyless. 

I think JoKen would have had much of the same story no matter how they were raised.  In a more secular setting, they'd be that couple that meets young, dates through high school, marries immediately after, and starts a family.  Even if they were raised in environments where young marriage is frowned upon, I think they'd still have the same story.  They just happened to luck out and be raised in an environment where that is both the promise and the expectation.

I think Siah and Lauren are the opposite.  I think that if they were raised elsewhere, they'd marry elsewhere.  Which isn't to say they don't have a bond, but I think Siah and Lauren both bonded with each other over their shared struggles to conform to the fundie norms even though they both desperately want to.  That can be a very deep bond so long as both of them continue to want to conform to the lifestyle, but it's a very different sort of bond than what JoKen have.  I think that given more freedom, both Si and Lauren would marry later in life as they spend their younger years figuring out exactly what they want from life and relationships.  

Put another way, JoKen are sweethearts or lovebirds whereas SiRen are partners.  I think that JoKen will need to work on developing more of a working partnership (they still come off as kids playing house sometimes), whereas SiRen will need to grow more of the emotional aspect.  Both sides can develop with time, but I think that a partnership can be guaranteed when both sides agree to work...whereas a loving emotional connection can be encouraged, but is never sure to develop.  

[meee]

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I agree. I’m not wishing any miscarriages on her but it could happen a few times in the future since 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage. And then it is higher for some women due to medical issues. Therefore she could end up with living kids named Bella, Esther, Francis, and Isaiah. No one would have any clue they had an ABC theme until Lauren explained it. 

You can see the ABC theme in the Nathan Maxwell family because they didn’t abide by the rule with their daughter who died shortly after birth. 

To be fair, the Maxwells lost Susannah first, and only decided on an ABC theme afterwards, possibly after they'd already had 2 living children? But it's also interesting to note that Melanie had a few miscarriages in between her live births, and they are not included in the alphabetical names.

[jillsdopplerofdoom]

In order for Lauren to get all the way through the alphabet she is going to have to have at least two or three sets of twins/triplets. I can't see them coping with so many children and don't think they will have more than 4/5. Her and Josiah have no real connection and if I saw them together for the first time without having ever seen them before I don't think I would know they were married. If she doesn't get professional grief counselling soon I fear Bella and any future children could have a very unhappy upbringing constantly overshadowed by their brother.

[Glasgowghirl]

I doubt they will get to 26, the closest any family that has followed on here has came to that is Noel and Sue Radford, who are expecting baby number 22, they were teenagers when they had their first child. 

Lauren seems unwilling to try and get on with the other in law's or Josiah's sisters and that is not good. I have a good relationship with my brother's fiancée and my sister's boyfriend. I view them as another brother and sister and even if I didn't like them that much I'd make an effort to get on with them. Kendra, Anna and Abbie seem to have some bond with the other Duggar women and it shows. Jessa was considerate to her feelings when she was pregnant with Ivy and Lauren was due the same day but Lauren having a cake for Asa at the baby shower, when both her mother in law and sister in law have had to deliver the baby's they lost, comes across as cruel and especially when Joy had only just lost Annabell a few weeks before that. Anna had an early miscarriage too and may not have wanted reminded of that either while she was pregnant. Being considerate to her in law's when they have been considerate to her should not have been too hard. Jessa's side eye at the baby shower spoke volumes about how pissed she was and I hope Jessa or one of the others spoke to her about it. 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

20 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

That’s how Josiah explained it on the show.

Got it! And, you guys are right--they can now 1) Totally milk it 2) Ruin their daughter's joy of being the first-born and forever remind her that a BOY came before her.

[JesSky03]

I can't see Lauren having more than 2 or 3, especially if #2 comes quickly after Bella. I'm 32 weeks and have a 21 month old and it is hard and exhausting. I had morning sickness for 5-6 months with tons of nausea and food aversions but I had to suck it up and get out of bed and make food for my toddler while trying to shield him from my dry heaving. There are days my eyes are just drooping and my body is dragging but I can't just nope out and nap whenever I want. I think god for my full-time job because its the only break I get but Lauren will be on kid duty 24/7. Those crying kids keeping her awake at night will be her own- I think it will be a rude awakening ?.

[mango_fandango]

16 hours ago, meee said:

To be fair, the Maxwells lost Susannah first, and only decided on an ABC theme afterwards, possibly after they'd already had 2 living children? But it's also interesting to note that Melanie had a few miscarriages in between her live births, and they are not included in the alphabetical names.

The Maxwells are much more private than many fundies; we have no indication of whether they named the miscarried baby or not. They have almost never done a gender reveal prior to the birth, the only time it happened was with Andrew (Drew). 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

20 minutes ago, JesSky03 said:

. Those crying kids keeping her awake at night will be her own- I think it will be a rude awakening ?.

I think every moment of life after "I Do" is a rude awakening for Lauren!

[theotherelise]

Every single one of these couples would be better served not being on television or in the public eye, even if it meant less income. My husband and I say regularly that we are glad we didn't meet when we were younger (we were 24 & 26, so not old, but significantly independent). Of course young marriages/relationships can last. My parents are celebrating 40 years and have been together since age 16. But very few 18-20 year olds would benefit from having their opinions and comments memorialized on film and in magazines forever.

It's got to be so much more likely for SiRen to get more entrenched in their opinions when the alternative is having to admit they weren't right. Neither of their personalities seem to prioritize accommodation/compromise/humility. I've thought and said a lot of crappy things through my life, but it's easier to grow and mature when you don't have to make a public acknowledgement that you were wrong in the past.

JoKen is still on the show, but they are clearly not trying to be influencers. If she posted a lot more, Kendra probably would be saying a lot more wtf things (like her mom). 

[Melissa1977]

17 hours ago, meee said:

To be fair, the Maxwells lost Susannah first, and only decided on an ABC theme afterwards, possibly after they'd already had 2 living children? But it's also interesting to note that Melanie had a few miscarriages in between her live births, and they are not included in the alphabetical names.

Susannah was born and lived for a few days. She was a real baby, unfortunately very sick. So it's normal that they count her as a daughter.

Naming miscarriages is a way to grieve, but counting them as real children (at the same level than the born ones) is a new trend among fundies. Michelle Duggar had Caleb but she never said Jana was her third child. People like Lauren are pushing the agenda too hard, and creating a false reality than harm themselves. 

I think they picked Asa as a name because the A and they were all about the ABCD theme since the first moment. Of course they are not planing to get the Z-kid, it wouldn't be realistic. But while Josiah may be praying about God sending just a couple.more kids, Lauren may be dreaming in 10 perfect-quiet-robotic children in a row.

 

[HideousGreenShirt]

27 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

Neither of their personalities seem to prioritize accommodation/compromise/humility. 

Nailed it.

They certainly do not present well on the show. If we're talking about TLC cutting less popular couples then my vote would be to get rid of SiRen. They also do not come across as a #blessed and aspirational couple to entice people into the cult. 

[Glasgowghirl]

2 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Naming miscarriages is a way to grieve, but counting them as real children (at the same level than the born ones) is a new trend among fundies. Michelle Duggar had Caleb but she never said Jana was her third child. People like Lauren are pushing the agenda too hard, and creating a false reality than harm themselves. 

I think they picked Asa as a name because the A and they were all about the ABCD theme since the first moment.

 

Michelle and Jim Bob named their miscarriage Caleb but have always said they didn't know if it were a boy or girl, they just liked that name where as Lauren and Josiah have assigned the name and gender for their loss, when they didn't know the gender of the baby. 

The fact they went with B for Bella and said it was the ABCD theme may make her feel 2nd best and especially when she works out when she is older and works out she wouldn't be here if Lauren hadn't miscarried. 

[kmachete14]

I’ve said it before but I wonder if Lauren did not realize how common miscarriages are. She even announced so early as if she never considered that the reason many people wait is to make sure the baby “sticks.” I know even early miscarriages can be terribly devastating, but among my family (many women with 4-5 kids each), nobody named their early miscarriages (Thank goodness none has late ones) or counted them as their children... it was always like well this sad thing happened but that’s how trying for kids works and sort of a grief that this one didn’t work out, not a palpable grief for a real person (if that makes sense). 

I hope it’s common knowledge for the other girls that yes, they do happen and its part of the natural process of the body selecting a viable egg. 

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

Susannah was born and lived for a few days. She was a real baby, unfortunately very sick. So it's normal that they count her as a daughter.

Naming miscarriages is a way to grieve, but counting them as real children (at the same level than the born ones) is a new trend among fundies. Michelle Duggar had Caleb but she never said Jana was her third child. People like Lauren are pushing the agenda too hard, and creating a false reality than harm themselves. 

I think they picked Asa as a name because the A and they were all about the ABCD theme since the first moment. Of course they are not planing to get the Z-kid, it wouldn't be realistic. But while Josiah may be praying about God sending just a couple.more kids, Lauren may be dreaming in 10 perfect-quiet-robotic children in a row.

 

I think with more women (and men) openly talking about miscarriages and their struggles and grieve, the tendency to name losses has become a general „trend“ (I feel using trend is judging but I think if it helps the grieving parents than please do). It also makes it easier to talk about it. Calling the baby „it“ can feel quite wrong even cold and heartless to some (especially in my language). But of course our Fundies will use this as a nice promotion of their believes, but I am not sure if those two are consciously pushing pro life agenda or if this „trend“ just fits their pro life mindset.  

48 minutes ago, kmachete14 said:

I’ve said it before but I wonder if Lauren did not realize how common miscarriages are. She even announced so early as if she never considered that the reason many people wait is to make sure the baby “sticks.” I know even early miscarriages can be terribly devastating, but among my family (many women with 4-5 kids each), nobody named their early miscarriages (Thank goodness none has late ones) or counted them as their children... it was always like well this sad thing happened but that’s how trying for kids works and sort of a grief that this one didn’t work out, not a palpable grief for a real person (if that makes sense). 

I hope it’s common knowledge for the other girls that yes, they do happen and its part of the natural process of the body selecting a viable egg. 

When I got pregnant the first time I never thought for a second the baby wouldn’t stick. Even though I knew it isn’t uncommon. I think that’s how humans cope with life in general. I drive cars even though I know I have a 7.7% chance to have a life terminating accident. 

I have never heard from anyone that miscarried a wanted child (disclaimer: I don’t know about any unwanted pregnancies in my circle and I don’t want to assume what someone would or wouldn’t feel) that wasn’t devastated even though we all know the facts. You just don’t expect it would be you. Just like with an accident. But I agree that I myself wouldn’t put an early miscarriage in the same category than a late one or the death of an already born person. But miscarriage (early or late)/infertility  brings its own special terror. Having your “body failing” you is something most woman have to overcome. Because that’s how it feels like for many, natural process or not. It also makes most women more anxious in following pregnancies.

I am not in the early announcement club but I have heard some good arguments why people do it. It’s not my cup of tea but you do you. If marriage and motherhood are your ultimate life goals (I’d even say those Fundies created a pretty unhealthy competition)  I can see why testing early and announcing early are even more crucial. Adding that with their pro-life agenda and being blessed by God it’s no wonder some chose to announce at 4/5 weeks.