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Josiah and Lauren 16: Just Another Young Fundie Couple


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On 2/6/2020 at 9:03 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Being well spoken is a huge boost professionally; not being able to pull it out when you need it can harm how you're perceived in many environments.  I am grateful my parents insisted on the importance of being well spoken to us and I carried that on to my kids.  I think we do them a disservice to not give them the tools they need to communicate appropriately depending on the environment and their audience.

It's kind of a reinforcing cycle (that isn't anyone's fault, exactly, but just...we live in a society)

Humans are driven (or taught?) to fit in and also to reject what isn't 'like us', and so to fit into certain environments means adopting the habits, traditions and  the speech of the group.  Which, if you aren't taught from birth to do so, is then something you learn. Or you learn it when you're young and just code switch as needed. 

One way of getting around this is just to learn how to do the thing, but we can also question and expand the scope of what is considered "acceptable" or normative in a particular space. I find this all super interesting!

On 2/6/2020 at 9:15 PM, lumpentheologie said:

This is so important!  My father was a proud member of the grammar police and it drove him crazy when people didn't speak and write "properly."  I was the same way until I learned a bit about linguistics. Languages inevitably evolve and change; there are no set rules handed down from God for all time. And they change in predictable ways that follow linguistic patterns.

Also every language is composed of a group of dialects, and one of those dialects (usually the one used by those with the most power) was/is imposed on everyone else as "proper" speech.  In English, it went even further. The people who wrote our grammar rules decided to apply Latin grammar rules to English, since Latin was a "superior" language.  The only reason you're not supposed to split an infinitive in English (the most famous example: "to boldly go where no one has gone before") is that you simply can't do it in Latin (or in any language that has one-word infinitives). 

 

Lol this is the perfect über example of this phenomenon. The Rule Deciders were just like, 'well, this is the Most Correct from now on because we are the ones who get to sanction this and because we said so'  :D 

Edited by seraaa
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2 minutes ago, seraaa said:

One way of getting around this is just to learn how to do the thing, but we can also question and expand the scope of what is considered "acceptable" or normative in a particular space. I find this all super interesting!

Exactly.  And this is what I think we need to be doing, questioning and opening up the status quo, while also arming people with the skills they need to survive now.  To not teach the importance of standard English is to limit their earning potential.

And it's really important to be aware of and confront our unconscious biases.  As you mentioned about rejecting what isn't like us, people are hardwired to respond more positively to the familiar.  People who hire HAVE to understand this about themselves and confront how they are evaluating candidates.  Not just going on gut feeling or comfort level, but making sure those things aren't leading one to rule out an equal or better candidate because that candidate is from a different demographic, is less "like us" than another.  

 

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20 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Exactly.  And this is what I think we need to be doing, questioning and opening up the status quo, while also arming people with the skills they need to survive now.  To not teach the importance of standard English is to limit their earning potential.

And it's really important to be aware of and confront our unconscious biases.  As you mentioned about rejecting what isn't like us, people are hardwired to respond more positively to the familiar.  People who hire HAVE to understand this about themselves and confront how they are evaluating candidates.  Not just going on gut feeling or comfort level, but making sure those things aren't leading one to rule out an equal or better candidate because that candidate is from a different demographic, is less "like us" than another.  

 

Definitely! Making people aware of their unconscious biases - and where they come from - is so important. Understanding and familiarity can really help in this regard, I believe.

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3 hours ago, apandaaries said:

The vast majority know enough to be able to code switch to some degree. But as we see with fundies, if there isn’t a fair amount of reading to accompany learning, people can and will make all kinds of gaffes. 

For the Duggars, at least, I suspect part of their lack of code switching is their own self-perceived superiority. People code switch when they feel their natural dialect will not be accepted by the dominant group. The Duggars would never consider themselves to not be the dominant group - they believe they are the default/superior group, why would they alter their patterns of speech to meet the expectations of people they believe are beneath them?

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15 hours ago, mpheels said:

For the Duggars, at least, I suspect part of their lack of code switching is their own self-perceived superiority. People code switch when they feel their natural dialect will not be accepted by the dominant group. The Duggars would never consider themselves to not be the dominant group - they believe they are the default/superior group, why would they alter their patterns of speech to meet the expectations of people they believe are beneath them?

At the end of the day, as long as we all understand one another it's all good. And the less formal the situation, the less people may feel compelled - or pressured - to change how they speak. 

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On 2/7/2020 at 4:15 PM, apandaaries said:

A lot of dialects exist in opposition to this power structure. “Pidgin” languages and African American Vernacular Dialect are not necessarily supposed to be recognized by the upper echelons. Same as Chicano English. Same with working class British. The working class had a way to communicate in front of others which wouldn’t bring them harm (see: the “Becky” phenomenon Beyoncé unleashed — side note: my phone added the accent mark. It knows).

Interestingly apparently the early courts in Australia needed translators for the "slang" terms that were used particularly in criminal cases.  Due to convict transportation Australia was basically a melting pot of english dialects and their slang terms (the Australian accent is also a melting pot of accents as well).

The dictionary that was created earlyish in European settlement of Australia was apparently a bestseller at the time.  Here is an article about the person who wrote the dictionary if your interested https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-25/convict-slang-manuscript-tasmania-learning-to-speak-convict/11437780.  I could also potentially find some audio interviews if I looked a bit harder...

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21 minutes ago, Someone Out There said:

Interestingly apparently the early courts in Australia needed translators for the "slang" terms that were used particularly in criminal cases.  Due to convict transportation Australia was basically a melting pot of english dialects and their slang terms (the Australian accent is also a melting pot of accents as well).

The dictionary that was created earlyish in European settlement of Australia was apparently a bestseller at the time.  Here is an article about the person who wrote the dictionary if your interested https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-25/convict-slang-manuscript-tasmania-learning-to-speak-convict/11437780.  I could also potentially find some audio interviews if I looked a bit harder...

Exactly this. The language of the downtrodden isn’t supposed to be recognizable to the elite. 
Anyone else watch The Wire? Remember the captions for the native Baltimore folk? Not everyone is supposed to know what they’re saying.

Simultaneously, the elite can and do refuse to listen. Everything is comprehensible with a bit of effort; they choose not to extend themselves in that direction. 

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That’s all very interesting. I am not a native English speaker- I learned it at school and than by watching movies, music, books and my in-laws. While I obviously understand some of the dialects in my mother tounge - some are just their own language. Apart from light pronunciation differences most people speak “High German” as a way to communicate across those barriers.

I will admit I have huge problems understanding non British English as I am just not used to it. Especially in conversation. I don’t know the words/cannot interpret the different pronunciation. I am now able to distinguish a basic Welsh, Scottish or Irish influence (I am sure there are more levels but I just get the basic differences). Dialects and different pronunciations make it incredible hard for people that are not native speakers. That’s why I think it’s important to find a standardised middle ground. 
Furthermore, abbreviations from the standard grammar due to dialects and such make it hard to know if it’s me making mistakes or a dialect. The „XX and me/I“ is such an example. Or something like “didn’t do nothing/anything” or the difference between less and few. If you learn a language that can really confuse you. 
I wouldn’t even think about stuff like this in my own language. Downside- I often don’t know the rules of my mother’s tongue. Thankfully I have a french colleague who learned German. She is awesome and knows all the rules. I can always count on her helping me out if the text has to be impeccable (especially with commas).

Edited by just_ordinary
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This is accent rather than dialect but I've been amused the past few days as I'm binging Pandemic on Netflix to see subtitles on the totally comprehensible Indian and Congolese doctors speaking English.  I guess if you aren't used to those sorts of accents it would be harder to understand but they sounded normal to me.  (Now really heavy working-class Scottish accent, OTOH, I'd probably need the subtitles for ;-))

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