Joy & Austin 28: loss and mourning

[AliceInFundyland]

Oh Hisey. Once again you have explained everything.

Where's that Cathy Dillard meme right about now?

[luv2laugh]

5 minutes ago, Hisey said:

I didn't watch the Jubilee episodes. But couldn't Michelle just have said "no" to the whole thing? Refused to have a funeral? Had a private funeral without telling TLC? Obviously, I haven't seen their contract, but no one forced Michelle to get dressed, go to church and be filmed that day. I don't see how she was exploited if she had the right to refuse.

I completely agree. Given that, I believe if Joy “pulls a Michelle Duggar” she is no different than that of Michelle Duggar. She can say “No” like her big sister Jill.

Edited July 7, 2019 by luv2laugh

[SassyPants]

29 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

Part of it may be the question of whether or not the adult Duggar kids are vulnerable adults or are they responsible for their fundamentalism?

Will Austin and Joy exploit her still birth for the camera as Michelle did with Jubilee? Will they bite the hand that feeds them or take the high road? Why is it “I hope TLC won’t film this” and not “I hope Joy & Austin take the high road and say ‘No’ to TLC like Jill & Derick instead of pulling a Michelle Duggar (Jubilee)?’ “

Why does Jill receive BEC when, whether voluntarily or not, she took her kids off TV? Jill said “No” to TLC filming her traumatic birth with Sam... Will Joy say “No” to TLC filming her traumatic still birth and the funeral?

I’m not sure that Joy and Austin aren’t being coerced by others from above. I don’t think that they’d be in any shape to be making opportunistic decisions at this time. And I was one of the first to applaud the Dillards for moving away from child exploitation by removing their kids from the show.Job well done.

[GuineaPigCourtship]

You can have the right to refuse but still be coerced into doing something by other people, otherwise guilt trips would never work.

I think that pressuring one of these people (ETA Duggar family members involved in the show, not just Joy) about how this (or anything else sensitive) can be their MINISTRY for something or other will probably work better than the money angle, even if that's at the root of it for the person doing the coercion.

JB is unlikely to have this sort of sway over Austin, though, since he does not provide all their income.  If anyone is pressuring Joy over anything related to this, I hope he will stand up for what they really want/need as a family.

Edited July 7, 2019 by GuineaPigCourtship
clarifying wording

[Ali]

13 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I completely agree. Given that, I believe if Joy “pulls a Michelle Duggar” she is no different than that of Michelle Duggar. She can say “No” like her big sister Jill.

Do you have proof that Jill and Derek refused to have Samuel's birth filmed? Do we know for sure why they are no longer on the show? It is highly likely the Dillards were kicked off the show for Derek attacking Jazz on Twitter.

[viii]

6 minutes ago, Ali said:

Do you have proof that Jill and Derek refused to have Samuel's birth filmed? Do we know for sure why they are no longer on the show? It is highly likely the Dillards were kicked off the show for Derek attacking Jazz on Twitter.

Thank you! We have zero idea why Sams birth wasn’t filmed or released. I think Derricks terrible opinions was far more likely to be the reason they were fired. 

[luv2laugh]

I believe Derick went rogue after they quit filming with TLC. Derick mentioned an issue over money via Twitter. It’s been rumored for a long time that Jill and Derick said “No” to TLC filming the birth.

Did Jill post any exploitative pictures or posts  on Instagram about her traumatic birth? No. We heard absolutely nothing from her. 

Has Joy? Yes. 

Was Michelle Duggar exploited by TLC for sharing photos of Jubilee and filming the aftermath & funeral of her still birth?

Edited July 7, 2019 by luv2laugh

[SassyPants]

29 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I agree. Although, will it be Joy being exploited or Joy “pulling a Michelle Duggar”?

Was Michelle Duggar exploited by TLC for taking pictures of Jubilee and filming the aftermath and funeral?

Michelle, as an adult, freely chose to pair up with TLC. Joy has basically known no other life. Michelle was allowed to go to school, work, date, make independent decisions and use BC. Joy has never been afforded any of those choices. Michelle made choices, while Joy has had decisions made for her; been denied choice. In 5 years if Joy is still making untoward decisions for her family, I will revise my POV.

 

[luv2laugh]

I think it comes down to whether or not one believes a Duggar is responsible for their decisions. I believe those that see the Duggars as incapable of their decisions after getting married are sympathetic to them and may be why there appears an influx of leghumping than when all of the Duggars lived at home.

Life is a journey. We make stupid decisions at 10, 13, 18, 25, 35, 40, 50, 60 and beyond and at some point, we become responsible for these decisions. There are codependent adults at 21 as well as codependent, enmeshed adults at 70. At some point, we are ultimately responsible for the decisions we make. I guess some believe certain Duggars are not capable and others are.

Edited July 7, 2019 by luv2laugh

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I think it comes down to whether or not one believes a Duggar is responsible for their decisions. I believe those that see the Duggars as incapable of their decisions after getting married are sympathetic to them and may be why there appears an influx of leghumping than when all of the Duggars lived at home.

Life is a journey. We make stupid decisions at 10, 13, 18, 25, 35, 40, 50, 60 and beyond and at some point, we become responsible for these decisions. There are codependent adults at 21 as well as codependent, enmeshed adults at 70. At some point, we are ultimately responsible for the decisions we make. I guess some believe certain Duggars are not capable and others are.

Of all the 2nd generation Duggars, the only 2 who I can see making independent, reasoned, adult decisions are JD and Jana. The rest, if left 100% on their own to navigate our world, would seemingly have a very difficult time. 

[Ms. Squishels]

This has been a very interesting discussion with lots of valid points.  I think one thing you're seeing is that we all watched the Duggar kids growing up.  Through their television show, we felt bad for them and developed a fondness for some of them.  Joy Anna especially was such a cute little tomboy.  She was feisty and was a favorite of fans of the show.  I understand it being hard for people to see her being snarked on or see anything negative about her.  She is, though, now a married adult woman who may indeed end up the most like her mother.  So some are definitely going to see that as a negative, especially as she has more and more children.  And of course, everyone has sympathy for the loss of her child.  But sharing it publically is certainly going to open her up to criticism.  I do think it's worth considering that life in the public eye is all she has ever known.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I don’t think anyone stated that as a fact. Most users are posting their own opinions. 

I’ve seen a lot of BEC in the Jill Dillard forum and it not being called out yet when someone’s criticizing a user’s favorite Duggar/Bates, they claim it’s BEC.

In fact, over the past year I’ve noticed more users claiming someone’s criticism of a Duggar or Bates is BEC and try to police them.

Before the older Duggar sisters married, members routinely criticized JB & Michelle’s fundamentalism and desperation forbfame. Users could be ruthless when discussing Michelle Duggar. However, once the older Duggars married, I’ve observed a pervasive trend where more members have become sympathetic to certain adult Duggar kids and defensive over how they are criticized.

Oh bitch please. Nothing has been censored and if you can't stand people telling you that you're saying bullshit that's your problem not anyone else's.

Personally I don't feel the need to justify calling out posts that with ZERO EVIDENCE  insinuate that a family going through what is the worst tragedy of their young lives is selling their grief for profit. Especially if this comes from someone like you who specialises in BEC comments. (Now, the next time you need a whole thread to discuss how a certain helpmeet harasses you, you can take this post as an example).

We managed to have respect for the Nauglers in murkier (and even sadder) circumstances can we afford it for the Duggars too or your hate runs too deep?

After all I don't think that, given the situation, waiting for them to actually DO something before criticising them is asking too much.

Regarding the above mentioned pervasive trend, personally, I couldn't care less. Call me when FJers will start justifying their hateful beliefs. Meanwhile you are free to take the heat for roasting Jill Duggar for how she breathes, scratches her head or eats a slice of pizza.

[luv2laugh]

39 minutes ago, Ms. Squishels said:

This has been a very interesting discussion with lots of valid points.  I think one thing you're seeing is that we all watched the Duggar kids growing up.  Through their television show, we felt bad for them and developed a fondness for some of them.  Joy Anna especially was such a cute little tomboy.  She was feisty and was a favorite of fans of the show.  I understand it being hard for people to see her being snarked on or see anything negative about her.  She is, though, now a married adult woman who may indeed end up the most like her mother.  So some are definitely going to see that as a negative, especially as she has more and more children.  And of course, everyone has sympathy for the loss of her child.  But sharing it publically is certainly going to open her up to criticism.  I do think it's worth considering that life in the public eye is all she has ever known.

Yes, I agree although people grow up in horrible, exploitative family situations and are raised in a toxic culture yet some manage to escape it. I’m thinking of the Westboro Baptist Church. At one point, they were adults yet still responsible for their hate. Many escaped but not all. 

On a completely different note, it is horrible that some people who are 18 years old are sentenced to decades in prison for selling drugs when difficult family situations may have contributed to it. However, the current law views 18 year olds as capable of decision-making.

By now, I’d expect some former 18 year olds are regretting their choice in either voting or not voting in the past election. However, those 18 year olds, as legal adults, still had influence.

Edited July 7, 2019 by luv2laugh

[Hisey]

50 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Michelle, as an adult, freely chose to pair up with TLC. Joy has basically known no other life. Michelle was allowed to go to school, work, date, make independent decisions and use BC. Joy has never been afforded any of those choices. Michelle made choices, while Joy has had decisions made for her; been denied choice. In 5 years if Joy is still making untoward decisions for her family, I will revise my POV.

 

You've decided, apparently, that at 20 you are still controlled by your childhood, but at 25 you are responsible for your decisions? Isn't that a bit arbitrary? Who came up with those numbers? 

The fact that Michelle could date and attend school doesn't mean that she owned her decisions more than Joy does. We have no way of knowing what kind of childhood Michelle had. Maybe it was a horrible one. The fact that she was able to do conventional things doesn't mean anything. For that matter, Joy may have found happiness within the restrictions of her fundie childhood. We don't know.

I'm afraid that at 20, as an adult married woman raising a child, Joy is responsible for her decisions. She doesn't get a pass because she was raised in a fundie household.

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Oh bitch please. Nothing has been censored and if you can't stand people telling you that you're saying bullshit that's your problem not anyone else's.

Personally I don't feel the need to justify calling out posts that with ZERO EVIDENCE  insinuate that a family going through what is the worst tragedy of their young lives is selling their grief for profit. Especially if this comes from someone like you who specialises in BEC comments. (Now, the next time you need a whole thread to discuss how a certain helpmeet harasses you, you can take this post as an example).

We managed to have respect for the Nauglers in murkier (and even sadder) circumstances can we afford it for the Duggars too or your hate runs too deep?

After all I don't think that, given the situation, waiting for them to actually DO something before criticising them is asking too much.

Regarding the above mentioned pervasive trend, personally, I couldn't care less. Call me when FJers will start justifying their hateful beliefs. Meanwhile you are free to take the heat for roasting Jill Duggar for how she breathes, scratches her head or eats a slice of pizza.

Can we leave the overt, nasty name calling out of it? I’d expect better from a moderator; certainly detracts from your message.

[Hisey]

5 minutes ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Personally I don't feel the need to justify calling out posts that with ZERO EVIDENCE  insinuate that a family going through what is the worst tragedy of their young lives is selling their grief for profit.

Exactly! The fact that it's a terrible tragedy means the Duggars cannot do anything mercenary! 

Grandpa Duggar doesn't count. Why? Because an old man dying isn't nearly as bad as a baby. A baby is special, and the Duggars would never exploit a situation involving a baby.

[SassyPants]

Just now, Hisey said:

You've decided, apparently, that at 20 you are still controlled by your childhood, but at 25 you are responsible for your decisions? Isn't that a bit arbitrary? Who came up with those numbers? 

The fact that Michelle could date and attend school doesn't mean that she owned her decisions more than Joy does. We have no way of knowing what kind of childhood Michelle had. Maybe it was a horrible one. The fact that she was able to do conventional things doesn't mean anything. For that matter, Joy may have found happiness within the restrictions of her fundie childhood. We don't know.

I'm afraid that at 20, as an adult married woman raising a child, Joy is responsible for her decisions. She doesn't get a pass because she was raised in a fundie household.

I was just being arbitrary with the number. More to the point, at this point, and with a situation and tragedy of this magnitude, I don’t think Joy and Austin have the ability to easily or opportunistically navigate such.  Very different from JB and M when Jubilee died-

1 minute ago, Hisey said:

Exactly! The fact that it's a terrible tragedy means the Duggars cannot do anything mercenary! 

Grandpa Duggar doesn't count. Why? Because an old man dying isn't nearly as bad as a baby. A baby is special, and the Duggars would never exploit a situation involving a baby.

Every person is special to someone. I am sure GMM was heart broken when GPD died. Let’s not get on the which death is worse train. Every death is a loss and tragic to someone.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Leghumping used to be “called out” years ago on FJ, from what I remember. For some reason, I haven’t seen that anymore. 

Before the Duggars married, users constantly ripped on Michelle Duggar.

Now that the Duggar sisters are married, I’ve noticed more “leghumping”. Perhaps this may be because users from an older demographic feel maternal over certain Duggars because they watched them “grow up” on TV? I don’t know.

Trying to respect other human beings grief is not leghumping. And BEC comments are not what FJ is for as is clearly written in the rules.

Btw I never watched a Counting On episode and I didn't even know they existed back then. I also am more their age than Michelle's. So no maternal at all, just humanly respectful.

12 minutes ago, Hisey said:

Exactly! The fact that it's a terrible tragedy means the Duggars cannot do anything mercenary! 

Grandpa Duggar doesn't count. Why? Because an old man dying isn't nearly as bad as a baby. A baby is special, and the Duggars would never exploit a situation involving a baby.

Even if they HAVEN'T DONE IT YET? Not with this baby? Can you wait 5 minutes or 5 days or you need to rip them apart now preventively?

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

I completely agree. Given that, I believe if Joy “pulls a Michelle Duggar” she is no different than that of Michelle Duggar. She can say “No” like her big sister Jill.

It's nice how Jill's getting off the gravy train gets retold according to what suits you. When the fuck did Jill become a hero for "saying no to TLC"? As far as I remember they got thrown out because her asshole husband couldn't keep his trap shut and needed to spout transphobic shit on social media. So who is the leghumper now?

Edited July 7, 2019 by laPapessaGiovanna

[Kailash]

I am very sorry for Joy and Austin’s loss. I will not be snarking or speculating on their actions surrounding this time of grief. I find it personally very easy to disregard and ignore posters who engage in trollish behavior. If people cannot and will not understand appropriate behavior after a tragedy, I doubt FJ can teach them. 

Do the Duggars believe and practice terrible things? Without a doubt. 

Do the Duggars deserve compassion when they suffer the loss of a loved one? I believe they do. Others obviously feel differently and would like to get back to the snark. Worrying about Joy and Austin getting paid for pictures of their deceased daughter says more about those posters than it will ever say about the Duggars, or any other fundamentalists.  

 

 

 

 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

Did Jill post any exploitative pictures or posts  on Instagram about her traumatic birth? No. We heard absolutely nothing from her. 

Has Joy? Yes. 

So now the 3 (three) pictures (where you can't actually see the baby) they posted on Instagram are exploitative? Of whom? People and other "news" sites just re-published them, nothing more (and those who think that they paid for non exclusive pics you're deluded)

[justmy2cents]

1 hour ago, viii said:

Thank you! We have zero idea why Sams birth wasn’t filmed or released. I think Derricks terrible opinions was far more likely to be the reason they were fired. 

They may have refused to have Sam's birth filmed because of the backlash they received after Israel's birth. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

I think it comes down to whether or not one believes a Duggar is responsible for their decisions.

Of what decisions? Having a baby that then died? Having had some pictures with her with which to remember and celebrate her? Because those are the only decisions Joy and Austin made until now. Do you find them objectionable? Fine, say it. But preventively dismissing their grief because somehow magically you already know they will turn it into the shitshow that Jubilee's death was is poor taste and people are free to call you out on it.

Edited July 7, 2019 by laPapessaGiovanna

[AliceInFundyland]

Downvote me on this but I'm fed up with the bullshit of these two.

As mentioned before I agree with the woke Olympics sentiment

I am left of center and I bite my lip sometimes.

I do think because of our loose rules certain members hit every single limitation and then we run into a problem

I'll be blunt

It can look like mean girling sometimes. I don't disagree with that. But it comes from the place of frustration from the members. A poster that gets that level of persistent feedback has earned it. Imo

Yet no rules are broken and we can't enforce restrictions.

Hisey is a troll. We discuss it and warn people off her monthly. She is losing credit and on a lot of ignore lists because she has burned so much ground. When that history exists it's difficult to even start engaging with someone on a superficial level.

Honsestly, luv2laugh hits a lot of those buttons for people. Sorry/Not Sorry but you have a history of not reading the room, asking why me, and general tone deafness. And so nobody wants to engage with you. Yeah you get ignored or 'policed.' Reflect on the numerous repetitive times why you have been argued with. Learn.

It's an elephant in the room and I call it as I see it.

I have no problem talking about what they actually do. Speculation on tomorrow just depresses me.

Edited July 7, 2019 by AliceInFundyland

[laPapessaGiovanna]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Can we leave the overt, nasty name calling out of it? I’d expect better from a moderator; certainly detracts from your message.

Things don't happen in a vacuum and this poster has a certain posting history. And I am still waiting for her to provide link to all the many and many horrible posts she accused me of having written about her through the years.