Joy & Austin 28: loss and mourning

[LacyMay]

Huffpost had a really well done article (link broken at the end of this post) about how while Joy's Instagram photos may have felt like a lot they were important and deserving to be shared. I found it really worthwhile to read and would reccomend it to anyone trying to parse out how they feel. 

One quote I really found valuable was 

"Between pregnancy announcements, gender reveals, birth announcements and monthly milestone photos, so much of pregnancy and motherhood is encouraged to be public. But, if we’re going to clamour for bump photos and videos of blue balloons bursting out of “boy or girl?” boxes, we should also be prepared for profoundly uncomfortable miscarriage reveals.

Because one in four pregnancies ends in one." 

We speculate on when the next Duggar daughter is due, we speculate on gender, we dissect sex reveals etc we choose to be a part of their pregnancy journey even to snark on it. Inevitably a part of that journal will involve loss. I don't remember seeing nearly as much discussion or controversy about seeing Jessa and Ben post about Ivy's birth, not a lot of discussion about then being taken advantage of of coerced to share. So why is sharing a loss any different? Because it's uncomfortable? 

Joy and Austin are grieving they have no responsibility to ensure our comfort. 

Article can be found here 

https :://

www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.ca/amp/entry/joy-anna-duggar-miscarriage-photo_ca_5d1f8801e4b01b8347362cd6/

[NakedKnees]

31 minutes ago, LacyMay said:

Huffpost had a really well done article (link broken at the end of this post) about how while Joy's Instagram photos may have felt like a lot they were important and deserving to be shared. I found it really worthwhile to read and would reccomend it to anyone trying to parse out how they feel. 

One quote I really found valuable was 

"Between pregnancy announcements, gender reveals, birth announcements and monthly milestone photos, so much of pregnancy and motherhood is encouraged to be public. But, if we’re going to clamour for bump photos and videos of blue balloons bursting out of “boy or girl?” boxes, we should also be prepared for profoundly uncomfortable miscarriage reveals.

Because one in four pregnancies ends in one." 

We speculate on when the next Duggar daughter is due, we speculate on gender, we dissect sex reveals etc we choose to be a part of their pregnancy journey even to snark on it. Inevitably a part of that journal will involve loss. I don't remember seeing nearly as much discussion or controversy about seeing Jessa and Ben post about Ivy's birth, not a lot of discussion about then being taken advantage of of coerced to share. So why is sharing a loss any different? Because it's uncomfortable? 

Joy and Austin are grieving they have no responsibility to ensure our comfort. 

Article can be found here 

https :://

www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.ca/amp/entry/joy-anna-duggar-miscarriage-photo_ca_5d1f8801e4b01b8347362cd6/

I really like that article. Go HuffPo. Thanks for sharing!

[kiwi]

Part of it may be the question of whether or not the adult Duggar kids are vulnerable adults or are they responsible for their fundamentalism?
Will Austin and Joy exploit her still birth for the camera as Michelle did with Jubilee? Will they bite the hand that feeds them or take the high road? Why is it “I hope TLC won’t film this” and not “I hope Joy & Austin take the high road and say ‘No’ to TLC like Jill & Derick instead of pulling a Michelle Duggar (Jubilee)?’ “
Why does Jill receive BEC when, whether voluntarily or not, she took her kids off TV? Jill said “No” to TLC filming her traumatic birth with Sam... Will Joy say “No” to TLC filming her traumatic still birth and the funeral?

I dont think Jill said no to filming sams birth. I think tlc did filmed it and wouldn’t pay his nicu stay bill as per dickwads request. Dickwad threw his toys, packed a shit and sams birth footage was never aired.

[xlurker]

My take on all of this, and it's just my 2 cents....Joy's loss is terrible. She and Austin are presumably devastated. She did not have to share, but as she is a "public persona" and shared news of the pregnancy sharing regarding the loss seems in line.  The pictures are raw, tastefully done and may very well be healing to the couple.  They also may "trigger" others, which is where I say those folks should practice some self responsibility and not look and stay away from said discussions.  Others (like myself) may look at the pictures, read the threads, be reminded of their own losses and cry.  Some tears are healing.  

As to will it air on TLC, I tend to believe it will.  This should not be surprising, the show is their political platform, and they are staunchly pro life.  (I really have a problem with that term, I mean, I am pro choice, not anti life).  Joy may be coerced to make it happen, but  in the end I believe it will happen.  I would be more surprised if it was not addressed on the show.  

These folks are different then us, they seem to see in black and white with no shades of grey.  That is a huge part of what we snark on here.  Personally, I am here more for the fascination and curiosity of how they work then to actually take part.  

What we know for sure is they are pro birth, with no exceptions.  Weather that is true belief, Kool aid, parental guilt, coercion etc. can be left for debate.  Knowing where they stand, knowing they consider the show a "ministry", they can't NOT show it on the show.  The extent that they address it is the only unknown

[Smee]

3 hours ago, LacyMay said:

We speculate on when the next Duggar daughter is due, we speculate on gender, we dissect sex reveals etc we choose to be a part of their pregnancy journey even to snark on it. Inevitably a part of that journal will involve loss. I don't remember seeing nearly as much discussion or controversy about seeing Jessa and Ben post about Ivy's birth, not a lot of discussion about then being taken advantage of of coerced to share. So why is sharing a loss any different? Because it's uncomfortable

You articulated what I wanted to. Joy and Austin had a baby. Every single time a Duggar has been pregnant or given birth, they make that public news (except Anna’s miscarriage) and share pictures. If they had chosen to NOT show any photos or share Annabell’s name or make a single public statement beyond “we lost our baby and would like privacy at this time”, that would be extraordinary and very unexpected for them.

I do think 2nd generation Duggars are given more leniency than JB and Michelle, and understandably so (it’s one thing to not escape a cult that’s the only life you’ve ever known, quite another to join one as an adult and raise 19 children there). But I also find my own attitude tends to shift the longer they’ve been married (& therefore “adults” in their world). I mentioned in the JD&Abbie thread that I’d be much more hopeful and positive about a pregnancy announcement from them than from Smuggar, or Jessa or Jill.

But the Jubilee situation was different anyway, right from the start. After Josie, it was clearly irresponsible of Michelle to get pregnant again, there was talk of Josiah being punished for being upset about the announcement, and JB and Michelle had chased fame as far as they could. I don’t see a couple of 20yr olds posting their loss photos on Instagram as comparable to JB & Michelle filming Jubilee’s funeral for TLC and giving a pro-life speech as a eulogy.

 

[Hisey]

7 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Every person is special to someone. I am sure GMM was heart broken when GPD died. Let’s not get on the which death is worse train. Every death is a loss and tragic to someone.

I was being sarcastic.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Hisey

[HarleyQuinn]

Jill definitely didn't say no to filming Sam's birth. wreck bitched on twitter that TLC wouldn't pay for it so I'm guessing they refused to film due to legal reasons like her homebirth after C section. 

[grandmadugger]

I have a former student who lost her baby days before her due date. The hospital did a full photo shoot just like a live birth. The mother shared those photos. She shares them on her daughter’s birthday.  She isn’t on tv but she has started an important trend in her social circle. Those girls talk about their losses. The photos make me uncomfortable BUT they have given a lot of young women permission to talk about miscarriage and still birth. All of that to say, Joy probably would have shared those photos even if she wasn’t on a TV show. It is what her generation does. They are much more open than previous generations. I think it is a good thing. I am 40 and no one in my social circle has ever discussed a miscarriage. I know that they’ve happened but there’s never been real talk.  I will be honest I am somewhat jealous of those younger women who can freely share the hurt of life. 

[SilverBeach]

22 minutes ago, grandmadugger said:

It is what her generation does. They are much more open than previous generations.

This is so very true. I am very private (no FB, Twitter, or Instagram), and I am glad I am not of this generation. It took several months for me to even reveal to you guys that my mom had died. I hope that those who are of this generation genuinely do not mind what seems to me at times to be oversharing, instead of just doing what is expected. Interestingly, my DD, who is of the current generation, has eschewed social media, she is private and somewhat introverted like me. I cannot look at the pictures of Joy holding the baby, but that's just me.

I think sometimes about why second generation Duggars are even public figures. Like the Kardashians, they are pretty much famous for being famous, except the Duggars are famous for their parents being famous. It was Michelle and Jim Bob who had an abnormal number of children and elevated reproduction to cult status. The children haven't really done anything deserving (not that having multitudes of children is deserving) public attention. For the most part, they are actually quite boring.

It seems that none of them are job-type people, and have latched on to social media as a way to make money. They were raised to be smug and I think genuinely believe that they have something worth admiring. So, their lives are lived out in the public eye, voluntarily now that they are adults. And with that comes the expectation, whether fair or not, that everything, including the good, the bad, and the ugly, will be disclosed.  Jill was criticized for not fully disclosing all the circumstances surrounding Samuel's birth, although I think that was more her husband than her (pure speculation). 

This is not the first, and won't be the last, sad thing to happen to the Duggar multitudes. Their life is their product, so to benefit financially from whatever happens to them is to be expected and doesn't make them any worse than usual. They are only able to make money from People, etc. because there is a market for it. I also expect that they would use whatever happens to them to further their political agenda. It's what they do. 

I can't believe I thought this much about the Duggars who, while they are my gateway fundies, do not have my favorite threads on FJ. I don't watch Counting On, nor do I go to any of their social media (thanks to those who repost things here).  In the current political climate, I find their narrow-minded perspective even more dangerous.  

 

[luv2laugh]

I disagree with it being “generational” as I’m 5 years older than Joy and do not encounter this. It really depends on the person.

I call it as I see it and don’t care about the current popular group on FJ disagreeing with me. I joined back in high school and I’ve seen a change in FJ culture around 2016 compared to earlier. Clearly, not everyone agrees with the current FJ popular crowd otherwise the Reddit Duggarsnark group wouldn’t exist.

By the way, Reddit Duggarsnark actually has a younger demographic yet disagrees with the Duggar offspring frequently and is strict regarding “leg-humping”. IMO, FJ is far more sympathetic toward the Duggar girls.By the way, that HuffPost article was an opinion article where they frequently have people spout polarizing views.

Edited July 7, 2019 by luv2laugh

[JenniferJuniper]

1 hour ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Jill definitely didn't say no to filming Sam's birth. wreck bitched on twitter that TLC wouldn't pay for it so I'm guessing they refused to film due to legal reasons like her homebirth after C section. 

My recollection is that Derick wanted more money for the Sam birth episode.  He claimed they didn't have a contract with TLC, so - simply speculating here - maybe the birth with it's associated complications was actually filmed but never aired because the Dillards and TLC couldn't come to terms.  Derick was definitely angry with TLC and whatever went on led to them being dropped by the show.   

My own guess is that Derick demanded more money because of the complications with the birth, figuring TLC would pay more for more drama.  He did publicly bitch that TLC wouldn't even pay the hospital bill. 

The Jazz stuff came later, after Derick was no longer associated with TLC,  although I think we were still a little in the dark about what had gone down with Derick and TLC at the time. 

[jillsdopplerofdoom]

5 hours ago, xlurker said:

As to will it air on TLC, I tend to believe it will.  This should not be surprising, the show is their political platform, and they are staunchly pro life.  (I really have a problem with that term, I mean, I am pro choice, not anti life).  Joy may be coerced to make it happen, but  in the end I believe it will happen.  I would be more surprised if it was not addressed on the show.  

They might handle do it like they handled Lauren's miscarriage. Do a TH with Joy/Jostin asking her/them what happened etc and then show the funeral if there is one. Plus maybe show the 20 week scan if they filmed it. That's pretty much what they did with Jubilee's death. I think even TLC have empathy and will be sensitive about Joy's loss. I will be shocked and disgusted if they show the labour and birth of baby Annabell.

Edited July 7, 2019 by jillsdopplerofdoom

[luv2laugh]

Keep in mind that a major reason Trump won the 2016 election was because of evangelicals voting in support of Trump over the Supreme Court justices, in hope of overturning Roe vs. Wade...

Politicians are already laying out abortion as a large issue in the 2020 election. In many cases, this disagreement is over 20 week bans and over Roe vs. Wade.

If the Duggars utilize their large evangelical platform and politicize Joy’s loss, people should be worried that evangelicals will vote and Trump may win again in 2020...  After all, Anna Duggar literally spouts FRC’s ideals off Insta & Twitter anyway so it’s almost as if they never left DC.

Edited July 7, 2019 by luv2laugh

[SilverBeach]

19 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

I disagree with it being “generational” as I’m 5 years older than Joy and do not encounter this. It really depends on the person.

Why of course there is individual variability, not all of any group does what the preponderance of the group does. There are people in my age cohort who enjoy and use social media as much as younger folks. There are black folks (I'm black) that support Trump, but that is not the prevailing view. Doesn't mean something doesn't skew to a certain age cohort, generation., or other demographic. I mentioned in my earlier post that my DD isn't really typical of her generation with respect to her life not being an open book on social media. 

[luv2laugh]

3 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Why of course there is individual variability, not all of any group does what the preponderance of the group does. There are people in my age cohort who enjoy and use social media as much as younger folks. There are black folks (I'm black) that support Trump, but that is not the prevailing view. Doesn't mean something doesn't skew to a certain age cohort, generation., or other demographic. I mentioned in my earlier post that my DD isn't really typical of her generation with respect to her life not being an open book on social media. 

Yes, some people are more “Jabbie Duggar” on social media. Others use it more like Jana and some are like JRod.

[JenniferJuniper]

3 minutes ago, jillsdopplerofdoom said:

They might handle do it like they handled Lauren's miscarriage. Do a TH with Joy/Jostin asking her/them what happened etc and then show the funeral if there is one. Plus maybe show the 20 week scan if they filmed it. That's pretty much what they did with Jubilee's death. I think even TLC have empathy and will be sensitive about Joy's loss. I will be shocked and disgusted if they show the labour and birth of baby Annabell.

I agree, they won't do that.  But the Jubilee matter was not handled tastefully at all. They showed Michelle and Jim Bob at the ultrasound learning the fetus didn't have a heartbeat.  Then they showed them supposedly a little while later telling the children - some of whom were sobbing and some looking either shocked or bored, depending on your perspective.  Then there was the big funeral and the ammo box and the Dear Jubilee letter.  The letter that had different versions and seemed to some like an anti-abortion political statement. 

I think this will be different, but only because Austin isn't Jim Bob.  I don't know who Austin is, but few men are as willing to exploit their family as Jim Bob.  But TLC is a corporation.  It it has zero empathy and it will go as far as the show participants will allow.

 

[SilverBeach]

45 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

IMO, FJ is far more sympathetic toward the Duggar girls.

I used to strenuously object when posters would refer to grown-ass married women as girls. To me, it was symbolic of a certain sympathy toward these women that did not hold them accountable, even as adults. I got my ass handed to me, LOL. You are actually kind of late with this observation, although it is not everybody on FJ. Same goes for the Bates women. Leghumperish individuals will continue to exist on the Duggar and Bates threads, because many of us just gave up confronting them.  I don't come here to fight with other members.  I've been on the board for quite some time, and yes, there was a time when even a slightly leghumperish poster would be handed their ass, not vice versa. I don't know if that is right either. I was happy to see the recent strong reminder not to use FJ as a scrapbook. I make liberal use of the ignore function.

In any event, enough said, this may be a better topic for Community Discussion. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by SilverBeach

[Glasgowghirl]

The Duggar's being anti abortion and the fact Joy and Austin lost Annabell when they did may strengthen that stance for them. Doesn't make what happened to them any less tragic and it doesn't make me feel less sympathy for them. I have never cared if they post pro life stuff or not, they have that right to protest about it the same way everyone else has the right to post pro choice opinions.

While we are snark site when it comes to things like deaths, abuse and serious illnesses people should think before they post anything that is too hurtful or offensive. The past couple of days people have crossed a line.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

I don't know, I think people can have enough brain power to do both, respect people mourning a stillbirth and criticise anti-choice preachings.

Edited July 7, 2019 by laPapessaGiovanna
Grammar

[Palimpsest]

7 minutes ago, jillsdopplerofdoom said:

They might handle do it like they handled Lauren's miscarriage. Do a TH with Joy/Jostin asking her/them what happened etc and then show the funeral if there is one. Plus maybe show the 20 week scan if they filmed it. That's pretty much what they did with Jubilee's death. I think even TLC have empathy and will be sensitive about Joy's loss. I will be shocked and disgusted if they show the labour and birth of baby Annabell.

I don't think TLC (Discovery) has empathy in the slightest.  It is a business.  It will film, edit, and show whatever gets it ratings.  And it has a history of exploiting horrible situations, including death, serious illnesses, family dysfunction, child abuse, and divorce.  And it has taken far too long to fire known sexual abusers.  Not just Josh Duggar.  Also see Honey Boo Boo, and Cheer Perfection.  

I do think they have interns monitoring internet reactions and may not show the details of any loss if they think it will cause a ratings drop.

But of course, teasing what they will cover and how they will cover it may cause ratings to go up astronomically.   That is why I boycott Counting On and TLC in general.

[JenniferJuniper]

2 minutes ago, Glasgowghirl said:

While we are snark site when it comes to things like deaths, abuse and serious illnesses people should think before they post anything that is too hurtful or offensive. The past couple of days people have crossed a line.

There aren't many lines out here, and I think this is a major reason why it's such a vibrant place.  If posters are censored or threatened with censorship because some other posters think they crossed a particular line, where does it stop?  

The ignore feature works pretty well and I use it occasionally when there is a poster I really don't want to hear from.  It's pretty rare that I feel the need, but sometimes it comes in handy.    

[Vivi_music]

It took a few days for me to be able to go through this whole thread. I feel I can not say more than what has already been said. I feel for Joy and Austin, because I would not wish a tragedy like this on even my worst enemy. Losing a very wanted and already loved little one is awful. I am also so grateful for every FJ members who shared their story of loss. Thank you for trusting this community enough to share something so difficult with us. Each and everyone of you show incredible resilience.

As for the picture of baby Annabell, I do admit when I first saw them it made me feel weird. I tried to understand why that was. Not because the pictures were disrespectful. I know in general I am a more private person. Of course I did not grow up in a TV reality show, but even so, I know plenty of very anonymous people who are more comfortable sharing their heartache on social media. It is not my case. Just to give you an example: I often feel like a voyeuristic person just witnessing the funerals of people I don't really know (I grew up close to a cemetery, I have seen plenty of services). But if I feel uncomfortable, it tells more about me than the grieving family. I appreciate everyone who explained the different reasons why parents would need and want those kind of pictures. As someone who has not experienced the loss of an infant, I am glad I have others' point of view to help me understand better. Joy and Austin clearly wanted to share these pictures and it is not for me to say if it is appropriate or not for them to do so. Maybe I would not do the same in a situation of loss and grief, but really what does it matter what I would do in this discussion? For now it matters that Joy and Austin are able to grieve and heal together with a good support system.

And like others have said, maybe we (and I include myself in this) need to rethink our own view on loss and death.

9 hours ago, LacyMay said:

We speculate on when the next Duggar daughter is due, we speculate on gender, we dissect sex reveals etc we choose to be a part of their pregnancy journey even to snark on it. Inevitably a part of that journal will involve loss. I don't remember seeing nearly as much discussion or controversy about seeing Jessa and Ben post about Ivy's birth, not a lot of discussion about then being taken advantage of of coerced to share. So why is sharing a loss any different? Because it's uncomfortable?  

Joy and Austin are grieving they have no responsibility to ensure our comfort. 

I think it was beautifully put. Yes it may be uncomfortable to look at butdeath is harsh, raw, painful and also a part of life. It is not for them to ensure what is proper or not in this situation. If something feels right for them and can help them heal, that's what matters.

[laPapessaGiovanna]

2 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

If posters are censored or threatened with censorship

Can you please point to where this happened in this circumstance (or even elsewhere)?

[JenniferJuniper]

1 minute ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Can you please point to where this happened in this circumstance (or even elsewhere)?

No, and you've taken those words out of context. 

[itqitc]

I've never had a child or been pregnant so I can't even image what she is going though, but most of my friends have.  Some, like Joy, have had late term miscarriages at 20 -23 weeks, where viability was not an option.  Their pain and despair is echoed on Joy's face.  As women we tend to hide our pain and carry on.  I don't agree with 99% of what the Duggars do, but this one I think is actually has the ability to open a broader conversation, and I hope gives Joy another avenue to heal.