Joy & Austin 28: loss and mourning

[Sullie06]

23 hours ago, grandmadugger said:

The photos make me uncomfortable BUT they have given a lot of young women permission to talk about miscarriage and still birth. All of that to say, Joy probably would have shared those photos even if she wasn’t on a TV show. It is what her generation does. They are much more open than previous generations. I think it is a good thing. I am 40 and no one in my social circle has ever discussed a miscarriage. I know that they’ve happened but there’s never been real talk.  I will be honest I am somewhat jealous of those younger women who can freely share the hurt of life. 

This! Pregnancy and infant loss was so taboo for so long, you didn't talk about it. It made people uncomfortable so you didn't talk about it. I'm very open about my losses, it has helped me tremendously in my own healing. I have however had people tell me my Facebook posts about our losses make them uncomfortable and that I shouldn't post about stuff like that, it should be between my husband and I. I personally disagree. If I can share my pregnancy, sex reveal, birth story, then I can share my loss. Because it's a sad and tragic part of life, but it is a part of life.  

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

5 minutes ago, Sullie06 said:

This! Pregnancy and infant loss was so taboo for so long, you didn't talk about it. It made people uncomfortable so you didn't talk about it. I'm very open about my losses, it has helped me tremendously in my own healing. I have however had people tell me my Facebook posts about our losses make them uncomfortable and that I shouldn't post about stuff like that, it should be between my husband and I. I personally disagree. If I can share my pregnancy, sex reveal, birth story, then I can share my loss. Because it's a sad and tragic part of life, but it is a part of life.  

I'm sorry for your losses, and I'm really sorry you have to deal with assholes like this. Next time it comes up tell them you are sorry YOUR grief makes THEM uncomfortable, you would rather not have to deal with the grief at all, but since their feelings are more important than everyone elses you'll go crawl under a rock where they don't have to be reminded that death happens.  

[Sullie06]

5 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I'm sorry for your losses, and I'm really sorry you have to deal with assholes like this. Next time it comes up tell them you are sorry YOUR grief makes THEM uncomfortable, you would rather not have to deal with the grief at all, but since their feelings are more important than everyone elses you'll go crawl under a rock where they don't have to be reminded that death happens.  

Thank you. I don't post a lot but I do a post for both of them on the yearly anniversary of their passing, so literally twice a year. The last person to say something was a family friend. I told them if they don't like it they can un-follow me because this is my life and my family and we will honor our children we lost how we want.  Before that I would just apologize to people who I 'made uncomfortable'. It's crazy on me to look back on and think about. 

[Sky with diamonds]

My heart goes out  to Joy and Austin, as well as everyone else who has gone through it.

[Italiangirl]

The day the news was share on Ig i purposely decided to take a break from Fj for a day, it was so sad and hard that I was hoping I could make it disappear or made it a little bit better if only I think positive enough (a little bit like when a young child believe that if he close the eyes and can't saw you then he his hidden and you can't saw him too). I have already share this a while ago, but I was a twin, and for various reason my mom ended up in the hospital in the middle of August back in the 87, after a couple days there they wasn't able to stop the labour and so she give birth to me and my sister at the 7th months mark (I don't remember witch week now), anyway my sister had a short cordon and she ended up in respiratory distress and passed away a couple of days after birth. Doctors was more worried about me since I was the smallest of the two and don't give too much attention to my sister, my mother wanted to sue the doctors but my father talked her out of that idea telling her that she had to focused on me now, that I still need a lot of help and it will not made her any good to focus on the death and the rest. Lately my parents have been throw a hard time and my mother said something about she was still mad at him for having talk her out the sue, at first I was surprise that after so many years she was still thinking about that, but I get that is something you never outcome completely it is something that stuck with you for all your life. All this has bring much more comprehension from me for my mother and for what she has been through so thank you all. 

[wandering woman]

Joy should be in college and not married and mourning the loss of her child. She has been thrown into a grownup world that she is not ready for. My heart goes out to her.

[melon]

21 hours ago, nvmbr02 said:

Anna has only mentioned one loss, their second pregnancy, publicly as far as I know. If she has had other losses I don't believe she has shared that. 

I know of Anna having one loss,her second pregancy.Her mother,Suzette,had multiple losses.

[SassyPants]

The Forsyths, just like the Duggars, have a huge platform available to inform, educate and compassionately guide others through some challenging processes. Time allowing, I hope that after they get their own needs met that they find a way to do just that. They are on the “learning” channel and have referred to their show as their ministry. I hope they can make it such.

[JustEnough]

39 minutes ago, wandering woman said:

Joy should be in college and not married and mourning the loss of her child. She has been thrown into a grownup world that she is not ready for. My heart goes out to her.

Is anyone ever ready for a loss like this? I understand that young women in this cult spend their lives preparing to be someone's wife and mother, and often become so at a young age, but we do not know that she is or isn't more or less "ready" than any other woman who loses a much wanted and loved baby.

I had a very public (because my life was at risk and I had to have surgery) loss of a very wanted pregnancy younger than Joy is now, and the comments people made on how it was or would affect me because of my age were unwanted, unwelcome, and for the most part untrue. 

I just don't think anyone is ever ready. And if they were more prepared than someone else age may have nothing to do with it (especially when we talk about individuals, not as a group). 

[jillsdopplerofdoom]

3 hours ago, JustEnough said:

Is anyone ever ready for a loss like this? I understand that young women in this cult spend their lives preparing to be someone's wife and mother, and often become so at a young age, but we do not know that she is or isn't more or less "ready" than any other woman who loses a much wanted and loved baby.

I had a very public (because my life was at risk and I had to have surgery) loss of a very wanted pregnancy younger than Joy is now, and the comments people made on how it was or would affect me because of my age were unwanted, unwelcome, and for the most part untrue. 

I just don't think anyone is ever ready. And if they were more prepared than someone else age may have nothing to do with it (especially when we talk about individuals, not as a group). 

Sorry to hear of your loss. You're right; no one would ever be ready for the loss Joy has just suffered.

However she is probably less mentally equipped to deal with it due to her sheltered upbringing. Joy will have been taught that all children are a blessing from God and she will probably be wondering what she has done to have this blessing taken away. Then in a few months she will likely be pregnant again without having properly grieved for Annabell. Plus with her being in the public eye, everything she now choses to share and the way she grieves will now be judged and scrutinised. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by jillsdopplerofdoom

[Smee]

On the other hand, Joy saw her mother lose a baby at a similar gestation that she might have been preparing to be a sister mom to, and more recently saw her brother deal with an early miscarriage in the public eye. Maybe she’s better equipped than those of us who have lives outside of baby making. I do hope she and Austin have as much time to grieve as they need and any subsequent pregnancy is because they want it.

A woman I know lost her son very unexpectedly at 36 weeks (went in for a midwife appointment the previous day and all was good, then couldn’t feel baby move the next day so went to hospital and learned there was no heartbeat), and they wanted to start trying again as soon as her cycle returned. In the end it took them 2 years and multiple rounds of IVF to conceive, and that time between pregnancies did nothing to ease her grief.

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

5 hours ago, wandering woman said:

Joy should be in college and not married and mourning the loss of her child. She has been thrown into a grownup world that she is not ready for. My heart goes out to her.

I teach university and let me tell you, not every 20-year-old can or should go to uni (or post-secondary education of choice). It's a great fit for some, not all.

And I'm with everyone else who's said that there's no better time to face a tragedy like this. It just sucks. It could be that Joy is emotionally stunted for her cult time but we can't really know. It seems to me that the best way to move through grief is to have a supportive community, and I hope Joy and Austin have that.

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

My oldest child, whom I gave birth to while I was still in high school, was born with a serious medical condition. Said child is very well now, but there were two occasions as a baby and toddler when they almost died. Even thinking about those occasions chokes me up. There is no perfect age or perfect life circumstance to lose a child and I just want to wrap my love around Joy and all of you who have experienced lost at any stage of your child’s life. 

[AliceInFundyland]

I did not go looking for this. I got an unwanted YouTube notification on my phone.

It is a compilation of Joystin Instagram shots, including the birth ones. Plus some Seewalds. And many posts. Including a ton of thanks for all the love and prayers. Etc.

https://www.accessonline.com/videos/joy-anna-duggar-and-austin-forsyth-share-heartbreaking-photo-with-stillborn-daughter

 

So, my eyebrows are raised a little bit higher. Thanks for the reality dose Mr. Phone.

Edited July 9, 2019 by AliceInFundyland
Note that the date was 7/5

[Snarkasarus Rex]

This is the first time I've seen the photos, as I was away when they made the announcement about Annabell's passing.  I thought the photos and their words were heartbreaking, but they are something Joy and Austin will always treasure.  What struck me was Boobchelle's perfunctory words on their FB page...yes, I'm sure they mourned with them privately, but my first thought was 'is that the best you can do?'.  No mention of how they understand their pain since they also lost Jubilee?  Probably BEC, but it just rubbed me the wrong way...

I hope Joy and Austin are sharing because they want to, not because they felt they had to.

[Sullie06]

11 hours ago, Smee said:

A woman I know lost her son very unexpectedly at 36 weeks (went in for a midwife appointment the previous day and all was good, then couldn’t feel baby move the next day so went to hospital and learned there was no heartbeat), and they wanted to start trying again as soon as her cycle returned. In the end it took them 2 years and multiple rounds of IVF to conceive, and that time between pregnancies did nothing to ease her grief.

I agree, that time between pregnancies was very hard. I had a similar thing happen after my first loss. Started trying again 2 cycles after my D&C and could not conceive. Testing found no concrete reason and I ended up taking 2.5 years and 9 IUIs to get pregnant. However, after my second loss I conceived 2 months later and I feel I was able to process that loss much better.

Maybe it was because it was my second loss and I had been through it before, maybe because I was older but I think part of it was being pregnant again helped me process it all. I still have a lot of depression surrounding my first loss and I think part of it is that I know I could have had that baby and still had my living children however so it feels like something is missing. I still grieve over not having 3 children. 

[GutenbergGirl]

3 hours ago, Sullie06 said:

 .... I think part of it is that I know I could have had that baby and still had my living children however so it feels like something is missing. I still grieve over not having 3 children. 

Exactly!   I had 5 years between my first baby who didn't survive, and my first one who did.  (I was 14 with my first, so I wasn't actively trying for five years.) At 19, I naively thought that having GutenBoy would make losing GutenBaby hurt less. It didn't. I was busier - Mommy, college, and work.  But, it still felt like I should have 2 kids. 

I went on to have GutenGirl when GutenBoy was 2.5 years old.  She was 10 weeks premature.  Emergency c-section - that was terrifying.  

But, I then got pregnant when she was 2 months old, with GutenBoy#2.  (There was a Benadryl involved, along with an exhausted preemie mom, and a 20 year old husband who didn't realize that Benadryl knocks me out, but I can still answer questions and seem to be awake.) GutenBoy#2 was born 11 months later.   

And to this day, it feels like I should have four kids.  I have wanted another baby, desperately, since GutenBoy#2 was about 2.  My uterus was so alarmed by these thoughts that it tried to escape.  I had to have a hysterectomy for uterine prolapse before I turned 30.  

GutenBoy#2 is now old enough to drink legally in the US.  I still feel like I should have four kids, except now, sometimes, it feels like I should have five - we added a elementary aged foster child a few years ago.  

I have more thoughts here... But alas, I think my doctor would prefer me to get dressed and brush my teeth before he sees me! 

Edited July 9, 2019 by GutenbergGirl
So it doesn't sound like I gave birth to my husband!

[Bobology]

13 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

What struck me was Boobchelle's perfunctory words on their FB page...yes, I'm sure they mourned with them privately, but my first thought was 'is that the best you can do?'.  No mention of how they understand their pain since they also lost Jubilee?  Probably BEC, but it just rubbed me the wrong way...

I kind of leaned the other way and thought, for once, they were being especially tactful. This was Joy and Austin's loss, not theirs and they didn't try to turn it into more about them. (Of course as grandparents it is also their loss.) When Lauren tried <awkwardly> to understand their pain based on her own loss, she was mostly blamed here for turning it to her instead of keeping the focus and sorrow on Joy and Austin. It really is difficult to like anything the Duggars in general do and we will usually never know what they really think or want to say. I understand your point because they so rarely can be real, I am usually suspicious of any 'message' they craft for the humpers and heathens alike.

[SorenaJ]

21 hours ago, wandering woman said:

Joy should be in college and not married and mourning the loss of her child. She has been thrown into a grownup world that she is not ready for. My heart goes out to her.

I know what you mean, but not everyone "should" be in college. Not everyone is suited for college. Plenty of other paths to take. Learn a trade, community college, get a job. 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

I know what you mean, but not everyone "should" be in college. Not everyone is suited for college. Plenty of other paths to take. Learn a trade, community college, get a job. 

Plenty of paths other than rampant reproduction, I think was the gist of that other comment, and I agree. All the Duggars are lucky that the lack of anything beyond the most basic of educations is not biting them in the asses...most people would be struggling  by following  their ideals( no education or working for the man, and NO BC.)

[lumpentheologie]

1 hour ago, SorenaJ said:

I know what you mean, but not everyone "should" be in college. Not everyone is suited for college. Plenty of other paths to take. Learn a trade, community college, get a job. 

Exactly. Let's stop with saying any of them "should" be in college.  Most people don't go to college, and that's fine.  And people who go to college often have a kind of prolonged adolescence compared to those who don't:  if you start working full time or start a family shortly after high school you do take up adult responsibilities sooner than someone who waits to do those things until after college. And although some people like having some more time to find themselves and grow up in college, not everyone wants or needs that.  The bad thing about Joy's situation isn't that she's a stay at home mom at 21, it's that she was never able to make the choice to do that or do something else. 

[Alisamer]

1 minute ago, lumpentheologie said:

 And people who go to college often have a kind of prolonged adolescence compared to those who don't:  if you start working full time or start a family shortly after high school you do take up adult responsibilities sooner than someone who waits to do those things until after college. 

Anecdotally, I've noticed the exact opposite - the difference seems to be location, however. The people I know who went away from home to college (or to live and work, though that's rare) matured far more and more quickly than those who stayed home, whether they were in college or not. It depends on the parents as well, though - some have trouble letting their kids grow up. That has little to do with Joy, however.

I totally agree that the main issue with Joy and all the other 2nd generation fundies we discuss here is lack of choice. So many of them, especially the girls, aren't even allowed to think about college or even learning a trade! The Duggars had enough TV money to let some of the girls play at learning things like midwifery, but they never had any intention of them having a career of any sort.

It's not so much sad that Joy married so young, as that she had no choice. If she'd had control of her own life and had chosen to get married and have kids as young as she did, then fine, that's her choice. But it really wasn't, her only options in life were to stay home and help Jana raise their siblings, or get married and raise her own kids. That's not a real choice, IMO. And now she's a very young woman with a young husband, raising a toddler, and grieving the loss of a baby while being surrounded by a multitude of other pregnant women and babies, because all she and her sisters are expected to do is have babies - and all in the public eye because of her parents' choices.

I hope she and Austin have good support, and are allowed to grieve and not have to put on a happy face when they're hurting. 

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

 if you start working full time or start a family shortly after high school you do take up adult responsibilities sooner than someone who waits to do those things until after college. 

There's a whole book on this topic which I haven't read, called Red Families v. Blue Families. The hypothesis in "red states" seems to be "families make adults", ie getting married young gives you responsibilities and makes you grow up, while in blue states (or urban centres) it's "adults make families," i.e. get education and a job, then settle down. I believe the argument is that the economy is moving away from well-paying jobs with no educational requirement so "blue families" are more successful these days (economically and in terms of divorce rate). In the mid-century, the red state model worked OK, unless you consider women feeling forced to stay at home negative. Betty Friedan sure did!

https://ifstudies.org/blog/updating-red-families-vs-blue-families

I should really read the book; it sounds pretty interesting. The above is a compilation of news clips by the authors.

[sixcatatty]

1 hour ago, lumpentheologie said:

Exactly. Let's stop with saying any of them "should" be in college.  Most people don't go to college, and that's fine.  And people who go to college often have a kind of prolonged adolescence compared to those who don't:  if you start working full time or start a family shortly after high school you do take up adult responsibilities sooner than someone who waits to do those things until after college. And although some people like having some more time to find themselves and grow up in college, not everyone wants or needs that.  The bad thing about Joy's situation isn't that she's a stay at home mom at 21, it's that she was never able to make the choice to do that or do something else. 

Parentified and scapegoat child here. I didn't get a childhood, let alone any sort of adolescence. Thank God, unlike Joy, when I started college at 16, I was able to get the hell out--and stay out--of Dodge.

[just_ordinary]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

Anecdotally, I've noticed the exact opposite - the difference seems to be location, however. The people I know who went away from home to college (or to live and work, though that's rare) matured far more and more quickly than those who stayed home, whether they were in college or not. It depends on the parents as well, though - some have trouble letting their kids grow up. That has little to do with Joy, however.

I totally agree that the main issue with Joy and all the other 2nd generation fundies we discuss here is lack of choice. So many of them, especially the girls, aren't even allowed to think about college or even learning a trade! The Duggars had enough TV money to let some of the girls play at learning things like midwifery, but they never had any intention of them having a career of any sort.

It's not so much sad that Joy married so young, as that she had no choice. If she'd had control of her own life and had chosen to get married and have kids as young as she did, then fine, that's her choice. But it really wasn't, her only options in life were to stay home and help Jana raise their siblings, or get married and raise her own kids. That's not a real choice, IMO. And now she's a very young woman with a young husband, raising a toddler, and grieving the loss of a baby while being surrounded by a multitude of other pregnant women and babies, because all she and her sisters are expected to do is have babies - and all in the public eye because of her parents' choices.

I hope she and Austin have good support, and are allowed to grieve and not have to put on a happy face when they're hurting. 

Thank you for writing my own thoughts so eloquently. I get annoyed when people claim that at a certain age you SHOULD definitely do this or that. Or you are not mature enough for whatever. Especially because those ideas are so much based on our own experience, social bubble and society we live in. There is no general rule.

The lack of choice is what makes it sad. Joy might have opted for the life she lives now but the choice wasn’t hers to make. And it wasn’t Austin really either. That is their big tragedy (and the horrible abusive training that they call parenting).

Edited July 9, 2019 by just_ordinary